Modern truck transmission in a 1920s Packard?

Looking at options to start touring my 1928 4-43. Has been a show car, time to drive more. Looking at three options: 1) high speed rear end (4.06); 2) overdrive, or 3) install a 5 speed Ford or Dodge truck transmission - a mechanic friend/restorer told me he saw and drove one in a Pierce Arrow a few years ago and it was really slick....syncromesh, 0.6:1 drive in 5th gear, and you couldn't tell by looking at it without crawling up under it. Does anyone have any experience in doing this exchange?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Yes...... I know of three Pierce Arrow cars converted. I would not do it to my car. They build cars called street rods...... old body with newer running gear and chassis........ why not just run a high speed gear, then you car is still ALL Packard.The problem is "creep" first it's a transmission, then electronic ignition, then 12 volts to start easier, then......... you get the idea. I think it's important that you remember the steering, brakes, suspension, etc are ALL below par with today's stuff. I have local friends who drive a car that many people call a XXXXXXX ( Insert very bad & offensive word here.). When is you car still an old car with all the changes added in? I have driven a 28 Packard and thought it was a fine car for the year it was built. Just drive it like a 28. To solve this problem myself, I got a 1936 Pierce with the factory overdrive that will cruise at 80 mph all day long. While it doesn't have the classic look of 1931 which is my favorite year, it fills the need when I need to do long over the road trips. Stay pure...... isn't that what makes our cars special? Better yet, show your wife my comments and explain to her why you need a 1938 Packard twelve for the garage. I am sure she will understand and approve. By the way, when driving the car with the modern transmission, it felt very strange to have a five speed with syncro's. It takes the old car feel away from the car. Ed

My '29 640 Super 8 roadster is essentially mechanically identical to your 443, except it has the 4:06-1 rear end. That ratio is a pretty good compromise in terms of somewhat improved cruising speed for our flatter Texas roads, while still adequate for the hills I encounter on tours in other parts of the country, or for that matter in the Texas Hill Country. I routinely cruise at 55, and once when I got stuck among a bunch of trucks on a freeway, I ran at 70 for about 10 minutes. I don't like to push it harder than 55 because of the original babbit in the rod bearings. Back in the '60s we had a '29 640 sedan with a 4:38-1 ratio that we drove across state to attend tours, at about 45-50 MPH cruising speed. I definitely like the roadster's ratio better. These cars don't have enough power to really pull a gearset that has a significantly lower (numerically) ratio than 4:06-1. You'd get bogged down on the hills.

Perhaps the best compromise of all would be, as you suggest, an overdrive unit that gives you a choice between either.

Feel free to come down and drive my car next time you're in Houston.

Don't FORGET, it is YOUR Packard, do what you wish, best though to do such in a way that you or some other owner could change back to original IF YOU WISH AT SOME POINT.

A gear in the 3.50 - 3.75 range would be nice, and a better tranny is also a good consideration.

I wish you well, be your own person.

Dale in Indy

Dale is correct, it's your car and do as you please. Just remember two things. Resale value and both CCCA and the Pierce Arrow Society will prohibit the car for functions. It will not be eligible for CCCA Grand Classics, Caravans, Annual Meetings, or any PAS meets or shows. I am not familiar with the Packard Clubs rules, bit I bet they won't allow it either. Sure...... there are LOTS of other places to play, but it will cut your options down quite a bit. Ed

It sounds like you are READY TO DRIVE IT, I have been the show route, and have no interest to do such again. Such doesn't mean I don't ENJOY shows, just means driving on longer trips, etc. is tons of fun, FUN IS GOOD! When I pull in for gas, or where ever, folks walk over and want to talk, i love meeting up with new people, there are so many great ones around.

If you modify without cutting up your car, then it can always be put back to original, (YOU KNOW THAT).

I don't have a clue as to how many rear gear choices you can find, maybe the OVER-DRIVE tranny would be my first mod........., a overdrive final at approx. 76% would take the 4.06 to a 3.08, and that my friend would be a nice top gear ride, IMO.

I have the opposite issue, my 41 Buick Limited is running a 2.73 gear, and with the 76% final tranny gear I am at approx. 2.07, so I leave it in 4th. and the engine LOVES 80 MPH.

It runs 6-8 degrees cooler, and get 3-4 more MPG running in 4th. I would love to go to a 3.70, but at $1,000.00, well I probably WON'T. LOL. I'm running 1997 Vette all aluminum, front and rear suspension. 17" rims, 30" tall tires makes for a nice ride.

Dale in Indy

443's are wonderful cars, I used to own a coupe with wire wheels, what a beauty.

I'd strongly suggest an overdrive for your car. That gives you the choice of around town speed, or highway speed. Also, I don't believe adding an overdrive excludes you from any events.

My Pierce has overdrive that was added in the ealry 60's, and it's a delight to drive on the highway...good luck...

This discussion is one that has been ongoing for many decades and having owned a very original, extremely strong running Packard 645 DC for many years I totally understand the pros and cons of the various options. Mine was a daily driver, frequently driven hard and could be driven effortlessly at 45 or a little above for hours on end. Yes you could cruise at 55 or so but you could tell that you were above the comfort zone. There were different ways people took to "correct" the situation but each had some drawbacks. I remember talking to Phil Hill who had had higher gears made up which he thought were a goood compromise. As I recall, he said that the new gearing allowed him to run almost 55 without losing too much low speed torque. The solution I recall that worked out well was on Seth Pancoast's '30/'31 Packard Roadster which had a two speed rear. Seth loved it and said he could maintain the original low end torque and still be able to cruise effortlessly at 70 on the turnpike.

As mentioned above, it's your Packard but keep in mind that if you make make changes, try to do themin such a way that you can change the car back back to its original condition.

Ed, i love your comments about "creep". How many cars, especially Packards, are running around with electric fuel pumps instead of the original vacuum tanks? Properly maintained vacuum tanks will provide excellent operation for many years. I never could understand why so many people would go around bragging about installing totally unnecessary electric fuel pumps. Also, your comments about driving a car beyond it's original capabilities is a good one. Back in the late '50s a friend of mine had the fastest stock Corvette available, 4 speed, FI, etc. I drove it frequently and understood what he meant when he referred to it as a jet propelled Mack truck. It would go like stink in a straight line but handling and brakes were horrible. I'm also remended of how we drove what are now called Muscle back in the '60s. Cars why beyond their limitations, it's amazing we weren't killed ! Cars with 14 inch wheels, marshmellow suspension, way too much power, and drum brakes that gave new meaning to the term "brake fade". Again, we were lucky to survive !

Sorry for the divergence from the original subject but couldn't resist.

Oh my,,,to have a 443 in the stable again,,,,But a 640 with the 840 tranny [close ratio]

and a tall rear end gear would be better,,

All those 8s were nice cars,,Still remember the CCCA tour Boston-Detroit by way of Harrisbergh

1955,,in my 1925 Sport /tall gears,,One of the nicest cars I've ever owned,out of about 35 Packards,,

I think the overdrive option makes the most sense overall,,Cheers,,Ben

P/S,,,Vacuum tanks are more dependable than electriic thingies,,CB

In the 1990's I used to service a Pierce-Arrow convertible coupe that I found surprisingly "sporty" and fun to drive around town. It was a little tightly geared on a ten mile fluid warmup trip for various services.

In recent years the owner installed a Ford truck 5 speed transmission. What a great improvement! For the owner and passenger.

Bernie

Looking at options to start touring my 1928 4-43. Has been a show car, time to drive more. Looking at three options: 1) high speed rear end (4.06); 2) overdrive, or 3) install a 5 speed Ford or Dodge truck transmission <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I owned a 1926 Packard 236 Phaeton for about ten years and during all of that time I drove it with a Mitchell overdrive. I highly recommend an overdrive versus high speed gears simply because the OD preserves the original ratios yet gives you the extra gear for cruising. In my hilly country around western New England, that was the ideal set-up --- original 3rd for hills yet overdrive for the flats. Packards are powerful, especially the 443, but they are also heavy cars. A high speed gear would not have been my best choice. And with the Mitchell or any "gear spliter" overdrive, every transmission gear has an OD counterpart. Pretty handy.

The other nice thing about an overdrive is that, for the most part depending on brand, you just need to alter the drive shaft. And what you do is have a new drive shaft made which is shorter in order to accommodate the overdrive. That way, as was pointed out, anyone in the future who wants strict originality can remove the overdrive, install the original drive shaft, and be done. Very simple. Very effective.

--Scott Dwyer

1914 Franklin Series 5 Touring

1924 Franklin 10-B Sedan

Looks like another guy could not find his way back. Been a year, only one post.

Ben

There is a 1920s 4 speed overdrive car transmission that will bolt straight onto the standard bell-housing of most larger Us cars. The Brown Lipe box that was used by Roamer and others has a funny change pattern. First is to the left and forward: Second is straight back from that: For third you go back into neutral then across to the right and back where direct is in a normal gearbox also. Overdrive 4th is straight forward where you find 3rd in a normal four speed. Overdrive is 1 to 1 1/4. No synchro, of course; but changes between direct and overdrive are a delight when I am giving visitors joyrides on the property between the house and the workshops: you just hit the clutch and whack it straight through, up or down. I have never found another, but they must be about. Between us and several friends

we could use a small number, for Series 6 Mercer, for instance; and I now have an excellent Kearns horizontal boring machine suitable to machine the main castings.

Good luck finding one in USA. There might be the odd one about, but not here.

Early White car/truck [4 cyl ] used that pattern,,and the ratios were handy,,

Never found a 4 speed for the early Packard with multi plate clutch,,,

Did I miss one???,,,Cheers,,Ben

That is not an impossible problem. You just machine up a new input drive shaft with its gear a blank so you can have it cut and heat treated. You use the best grade steel for the job such as EN39B, because the material cost of a single gear is not huge differential. There are ways you can cheat if you are dealing with modern stuff where it does not matter if you cut and alter something. I dowelled and carefully welded a section of Mercedes input shaft for the clutch onto the input gear of a 5 speed overdrive Toyota Crown gearbox, and fitted the small Mercedes diesel engine into my (GM) 1962 Holden ute. The engine was tired so it could smoke a little, but I got 35 miles per gallon of diesel instead of 25 mpg from the Holden engine.

If you need to use Pierce Arrow Model 80 gearbox in a Mercer Series 6 you have to make a new input shaft similarly. Few people realise that the Pierce 80 was an assembled car of which they made the engines and bodies only. Gearbox was Brown Lipe, but I reckon the Pierce gears were far better quality. There seem to have been material or heat treatment problems with the earlier ones for Mercer. The Pierce housing also differs slightly where there is a cross shaft down low which is handy for front mechanical brakes.

I have installed a Mitchell overdrive in my '33 Pierce 836, which brings down the original 4.28:1 ratio to somewhere around 3.15:1 The big 8cylinder engine just loves the taller gear for the highway. It runs cooler, and much quieter and more relaxed..

I also have installed the Mitchell overdrive in two Series 80 cars, one, my '25 touring is now a comfortable 50mph car, if I put the top down, it is able to cruise at a higher speed, but it's quite windy in the car. This car has the standard 4.45:1 ratio, so it now is 3.29:1.

The other Series 80 is a mostly original '25 5passenger sedan, with the 'mountain gears' 4.88:1. it used to be a 37-39mph car. Now it runs very comfortably and quietly at 47-50mph.

The Mitchell overdrive is a very nice box. Way over built, with good syncromesh . It does have some gear whine in OD, but that diminishes with miles.

I have taken the '25 sedan on the Modoc tour twice. It really makes for a flexible set of gears. it still has the 'mountain gearing' for the high altitude passes, but can move right along on the flats and down hill.

We took the sedan over Fandango pass one year, it was one of the optional routes for the after lunch return to town. Since we'd already gone over Cedar Pass, a nice paved ~7000' pass, we decided to take the less traveled gravel road Fandango pass, it still has the same altitude at the summit: ~7000'.

Well, it had been dry, no rain for months, so the county road equipment had not been out to grade and repair any 'washed out' sections of the road. So the road was about 7 miles of 7-8% [if I remember correctly] grade and it was 80% washboard. The grade was so steep, and the road so rough, that there was no way to get from first to second gear without losing all forward motion, then the engine could not pull the grade and weight as such a slow speed, and then of course, at every switchback, the car had to be down in first anyway.

So I used first and first Overdrive.. I NEVER thought there would be a practical use for First Overdrive.. I was wrong.. With the good syncromesh, the shifting was quick and silent and it allowed us to climb at about 15 mph if the road was smooth enough, instead of 8-10mph.

What an experience.

We went to the Ironstone Concours right after the Modoc tour, we left all the road dust on the wheels and tires, the raised 'B.F. Goodrich' was 'ghosted' by the white limestone gravel's dust. The radiator was a bug collector's dream.

The old Pierce sedan had a sign in each door stating it was 'fresh' from the High Desert roads in Modoc county. The car had a crowd around it two and three deep, looking at a car that was being used for what it had been intended to do: run on unpaved roads like in the mid '20's.

I'd recommend seeing if you have room to mount a Mitchell OD, in your Packard.. It's a nice upgrade to the mid '20's cars.

GLong