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1947 Chrysler Windsor Highlander


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Hi everyone,

Whilst I'm not new to this forum, I am new to this part. I just purchased this '47 Windsor Highlander. Here are a couple of photos. It is a one family owned car and is mostly original, certainly unrestored.

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I will have more questions to come!

Regards

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The Fluid Drive has been covered exhaustively in the Chrysler and Dodge boards. Do a search for Fluid Drive and you will find much food for thought. There are a couple of long threads from 2008 that cover operation and service.

The Fluid Drive system is one of the earliest efforts at an automatic transmission. It acts like a cross between a manual trans and automatic. The driving technique is easy to learn, but not so easy to figure out on your own.

Here is what I like to do, a combination of the owner's manual and my own experience.

Start the engine and let it warm up a minute. Check the hand brake is set. Step on the clutch, shift the lever down into High range. Release the clutch. Release the hand brake and take off like an automatic by stepping on the gas. When you get up to 14 MPH or higher, lift off the gas. You will hear a soft *click-clack* from under the floorboards. This indicates you have shifted into High gear of high range. Step on the gas and go someplace.

If you want to stop for a stop sign, just step on the brake like any automatic. The trans will shift down, when you take off, when you get to 14MPH or more, lift off the gas etc.

If you floor the gas pedal at any speed below 50, the transmission will kick down like an automatic.

You only need the clutch pedal when shifting into gear, or when shifting the gear lever into Reverse, High or Low range.

There are only 3 positions of the gear lever.Straight up, Low range. Straight down, High range. Towards you and up, Reverse gear.

You can start off in Low range and shift to High range manually, using the clutch pedal. This is not necessary in normal driving but may be useful when starting on a hill, or with a heavy load, towing a trailer or in heavy sand. The transmission will shift up to high gear (of low range) if you lift off the gas pedal at 6 MPH or higher, same as in High range.

On the whole the Fluid Drive system is very rugged and reliable. It consists of a fluid coupling (the Fluid Drive unit) followed by a dry plate clutch, followed by a 4 speed transmission. The transmission is conventional synchromesh type except for the added self shifting feature. It has a small gerotor oil pump on the back. This pump supplies oil pressure to shift from Low to High gear. There is also a manual shift between Low and High range. Making 4 speeds in all.

The shift is controlled by a governor, a solenoid and an interrupter switch located on the right side of the transmission. They are actuated by 2 switches built into the carburetor, one for when the throttle is closed (the up shift) and the other when the throttle is completely open (the kick down). They get their power off the ignition coil by way of a small box containing a resistor and a circuit breaker.

Most times any fault in operation can be traced to the electric controls, check for loose or frayed wires, or the transmission being low on oil. 10W motor oil is recommended for the transmission and fluid drive but today we usually use tractor fluid, TDH type, ISO 22 grade if you can get it, otherwise ISO32. The tractor fluid is for Transmission Differential and Hydraulic applications and works well in the Fluid Drive and transmission.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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You have a very beautiful car there. Once you get used to the fluid drive you will not want to drive it like a manual transmission. That soft click-clack that Rusty described has an air of dignity and class about it that the manual transmission lacks.

Jay

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Thanks Rusty, very helpful. So if I want to I can drive it like a manual without hurting anything?

Did you read a single word I wrote?

It is NOT a manual transmission. It is NOT an automatic transmission. It is a design all its own with characteristics of a manual and an automatic.

To clarify further you can't drive it like a manual because it is not a manual trans. You also cannot drive it like an automatic because it is not an automatic trans. I hope this is clear.

Follow the directions I gave and it will work grand for you. Just try it for a few days. Then go get ideas of your own if you want to. As I said, it's a very rugged transmission, there is little chance of you hurting it no matter what you do.

Good luck.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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I'm sorry if my reply seemed harsh. I understand the transmission is a strange one to a modern day driver. I have done a lot of research on it, taken them apart, studied the factory repair manuals and owner's manuals, and the instructions I gave are the best information I have.

It is not a manual trans or an automatic. It needs a special driving technique that is neither one thing nor the other, but a combination of both. I am sure if you follow the instructions you will soon get the hang of it. Then you will find it has advantages of its own.

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Best way to learn/and understand how to drive one of these Hydraulically operated M-5 transmissions is to read the owners manual for your 1947 Chrysler. They are not complicated to use! The M-5 transmission is coupled to a "Fluid Drive" coupling. Kinda like a modern day car torque converter so you can come to a complete stop without pushing in the clutch so as not to kill the engine-BUT remember its just a fluid coupling and not the torque converter which multiplies engine torque for faster take offs which Chrylser brought out in 1951.

Bob

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Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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About driving a Fluid Drive like a manual transmission. I suspect you have been misinformed. Yes you do drive it like a manual trans, then again you don't. You do, in the sense that there is a clutch pedal and a gearshift lever. But the transmission action is not like a manual trans, more like an automatic. It has a fluid coupling, which is like a torque converter, and the transmission shifts itself in spite of being a conventional gearbox to all appearances.

This discussion must seem very confusing, so forget about all that. Get behind the wheel and go for a drive. Just do as I suggested and find out for yourself how it works. Everything will become clear after the first drive. Take a few days to get used to it and you will find the transmission action suits the dignity of the car perfectly and is part of its period charm.

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C49er has been very helpful in giving the actual instructions from the original owner's manual. Disregard the top half of the first page, it applies to the conventional 3 speed and has nothing to do with the transmission in your car.

Start from "The Hydraulically Operated Transmission". That is the one in your car. I make only one change from the owner's manual, and that is I prefer to put the car in gear and engage the clutch before driving off. I find this to be easier on the clutch and easier on the driver. The slippage of the Fluid Drive confused with the slippage of the clutch is disquieting. For today's drivers it is better to drive it as if it was an automatic.

For a long time I wondered why they even bothered putting a clutch pedal in the car. They could easily have incorporated a vacuum clutch and eliminated the pedal. In fact, they had a vacuum clutch in some Chryslers in the early thirties.

The only explanation I could think of was that drivers of the time were used to a clutch pedal and Chrysler did not want to make too radical a change all at once. So they put in a clutch but made it practically redundant.

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Use the clutch as little as possible. It is only half the size of a conventional clutch. But then it does not do much work, if you operate it properly.

I knew one old timer (my father) who insisted on driving his car (1952 Chrysler New Yorker) as if it were a manual trans. He would rev the engine up and slowly release the clutch as if it was a standard. The car would not move, because of the slippage of the Fluid Drive. So he would rev it even more, and slip the clutch some more. Every time he took off he would rev up madly and slip the clutch for 10 yards - completely unnecessary.

He would also start in low range, then manually shift to high range, revving the engine and slipping the clutch again.

He also had the habit of stepping on the clutch pedal when he stopped and holding it down until it was time to take off. Then revving like mad, taking off in low range, revving again and shifting to high.

The result was he burned out the clutch and throwout bearing in a few months.

All this beating on the clutch and transmission was completely unnecessary and abusive. But I could never convince him that it you should not drive it like a manual transmission, that it required a special driving technique.

The Fluid Drive unit is extremely simple and reliable with only one moving part, running in an oil bath. The transmission too is the simplest and most rugged of the early automatic drives. It resembles the transmission out of a dump truck and is practically indestructible.

So, if you chose to ignore me, the other posters, and the factory that made the car, chances are all you will do is burn out the clutch.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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I see you also own a Cadillac and a Buick of the same era. The 3 cars represent the 3 types of automatic transmission then in use: Fluid coupling plus planetary box, torque converter, and Fluid Drive plus self shifting gearbox.

All 3 get at a similar result in different ways. The Chrysler is the most primitive in that it retains the clutch pedal but is also the most simple and flexible. You may come to like it, especially if you ever have to repair or overhaul the Hydramatic or Dynaflow. By comparison the Fluid Drive is beautiful in its simplicity and rugged reliability.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest markrush

[

Rusty,

You said," I make only one change from the owner's manual, and that is I prefer to put the car in gear and engage the clutch before driving off. I find this to be easier on the clutch and easier on the driver. The slippage of the Fluid Drive confused with the slippage of the clutch is disquieting. For today's drivers it is better to drive it as if it was an automatic."

I have been wondering about that. Just to be clear, are you saying to clutch, put it in gear, than release the clutch while covering the brake? I read of someone back in the day amazing their friends by showing them the car would not stall doing that, but I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not, because the manual doesn't say that.

Your instructions are good. I have found that some people online don't really understand this transmission. There is a video on YouTube of a guy describing this car's three forward gear ranges. You are also right about the clutch. It makes people want to use it like a conventional manual transmission.

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First I set the handbrake. By that I mean pull out the handle until the brake is on, just as you would leave the car parked. Normally the handbrake is set when I get in the car because I left it that way when I parked the car.

What I do is to start the car in neutral, let it warm up for a minute, touch the gas pedal to make the engine idle down, step on the clutch pedal, shift into gear, and release the clutch fully without touching the handbrake or the gas pedal. At that point the car is idling, in gear, with the handbrake on, and the clutch fully released. The engine does not stall, no more than it would with a Dynaflow or Hydramatic.

Hope that is clear.

At that point I release the handbrake, step on the gas and drive off as if I were driving a car with a modern automatic transmission.

In general I find it best to drive it as if it was an automatic transmission that happens to have a clutch pedal. Once you get going you can ignore the clutch pedal and stop for stop signs without touching it.

The clutch itself is a conventional dry plate clutch but about half the normal size. I prefer to use it as little as possible and avoid slipping it. The Fluid Drive unit is meant to do most of the work of the clutch.

You could drive it like a manual transmission but it would be awkward and it would cause a lot of unnecessary wear on the clutch and transmission.

Or, just release the clutch quickly to avoid slipping and wear, and let the Fluid Drive do its job.

All this is making it a lot more confusing than it needs to be. If you drive the car around for a few days it will all become clear. Just treat it as a funny automatic with a clutch pedal. In a short time, driving it will be completely natural and a real pleasure.

Incidentally I would be interested in your impressions of the car compared to the Cadillac and Buick, bearing in mind it sold new for about the same money as the lower priced Buick Special.

I might also mention that Chrysler was the first to make the automatic transmission standard equipment - the transmission in your car. But on the models on which it cost extra, it cost half what Buick charged for Dynaflow and a third what Cadillac charged for Hydramatic.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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One of the most important things not ever mentioned about a Fluid Drive car, You MUST ALWAYS put on the emergency brake fully when parking a Fluid Drive eqipped car! If you don't and the car is on any incline you might see it go BYE BYE-roll of into the yonder! The E-brake must be able to hold the car on a pretty steep grade to be safe. I have seen two Mopars-a 1942 DeSoto and a 1950 NewYorker get wrecked from rolling away. There is no mechanical gear connection between the engine and the rear end-just a fluid coupling.

Bob

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  • 3 weeks later...
Use the clutch as little as possible... [he] had the habit of stepping on the clutch pedal when he stopped and holding it down until it was time to take off.... The result was he burned out the clutch and throwout bearing in a few months.

Thanks for this, Rusty. Wasn't sure about this and hadn't tried both ways on our '53 Windsor station wagon.

I'll treat the clutch as you've described here from now on... I'd prefer to not burn it out!

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I use the clutch in all my Chryslers. Have for 35 years. I have never burned the clutch in one either. Don't be scared to use the 9-1/4" Borg and Beck clutch in one of these Chrysler cars. The clutch is not small by any means for the 251ci engine size. They are a normal sized cover and plate.

Bob

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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I have a 50 Chrysler with fluid drive and my first car was a 50 Chrysler. I used the clutch to put it in gear, usually starting out in second. (Shift down on the column). I then just used the brake without engaging the clutch. The only other times I used the clutch was for neutral when I parked it and for reverse. Have fun. I loved the the over drive "clunk" when letting up on the gas pedal between 15-20 mph.

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Guest markrush

Be careful when starting out with little clearance in the fluid drive. Distinguishing between reverse and the low range may be tricky if things are not adjusted right, as they often aren't on old cars. I back into my garage. When I exit I always start in the high range (which is about all you need as per the above discussion) because that is down on the column and there is no mistaking you are in a forward gear. Unlike an old automatic, there is no little bump to tell you you are in the correct gear before hitting the gas.

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  • 2 months later...

Thanks for your hepl guys.

The car has arrived in Australia and I registered and drove it home yesterday using your excellent operating instructions. The car is in excellent condition and there are only a few small issues that need to be attended to. I am disappointed that the beautiful passenger side swan neck mirror is next to impossible to see fron the drivers seat.

I drove using high range as advised and without the clutch but noticed that take offs are woefully slow. I'm not sure if its changing down to the lower of the high range gears when it comes to a stop. I need to drive around when theres no traffic and its quiet to check this.

The front end appears to have been rebuilt and in good condition. The steering is very heavy and doesn't self centre particularly well. Is this normal or an alignment issue? The car is on cross plies to correct pressures.

Regards

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The swan necks are just for looks mostly. If the fuse on the transmission relay on the left fender well is burned out there is no 6V power for the kick down solenoid to dump oil pressure and the transmission will stay in high range till the car comes to a complete stop with the clutch pushed in.. In other words the transmission oil pressure stays up and holds it in high range even at a stop unless you push in the clutch to release the torque load on the direct speed blocker ring and shift collar. Check that fuse first and then try coming to a stop with the clutch pushed in and see if it shifts down once you come to a complete stop.

So remember this... if the fuse is burned out on the fender mounted transmission relay or the transmission wiring does not supply 6V power to the shifting solenoid, the M-5 transmission will imediately upshift to high range when you let off the gas for a second and stay in high range until you come to a complete stop with the clutch pushed in-then it will finally clunk back into low range after a second or two-oil pressure has to drop to zero.

If it does better and downshifts with the clutch depressed at a stop, get a factory shop manual and learn about your M-5transmission and how to service/diagnos and maintain it! You will be happy that you can take care of it your self. Otherwise to find a person who knows much about these transmissions is getting difficult now days.:)

Bob

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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Thanks for your hepl guys.

The car has arrived in Australia and I registered and drove it home yesterday using your excellent operating instructions. The car is in excellent condition and there are only a few small issues that need to be attended to. I am disappointed that the beautiful passenger side swan neck mirror is next to impossible to see fron the drivers seat.

I drove using high range as advised and without the clutch but noticed that take offs are woefully slow. I'm not sure if its changing down to the lower of the high range gears when it comes to a stop. I need to drive around when theres no traffic and its quiet to check this.

The front end appears to have been rebuilt and in good condition. The steering is very heavy and doesn't self centre particularly well. Is this normal or an alignment issue? The car is on cross plies to correct pressures.

Regards

They do give the impression of being slow. Chrysler compared the takeoff with Fluid Drive to an airplane, that gathers speed slowly at first then takes off to a high speed. That, and a 100HP engine in a 4000 pound car. But you should be used to that, your Buick and Cadillac ought to be similar to drive.

When you take off from a dead stop, you must accelerate to 14 MPH (in High range) then lift your foot completely off the gas pedal. You will hear a soft *click-clack* as the transmission shifts. This takes 1 or 2 seconds. You can then step on the gas and go someplace.

If you tramp the gas pedal to the floor, at under 50 MPH, it will shift down like a typical automatic.

If the transmission is not shifting it is most likely 1) engine idle too high (it should be very slow, 400 RPM) 2) Transmission low on oil or 3) wiring out of order 4) shifting solenoid contacts dirty.

The steering should not be heavy, quite the opposite. It should be light and easy to drive although low geared.

Check your tire pressure. Are they radials? Radials have more drag than bias ply. If they are radials try pumping them up to 32 PSI. Steering should be easy except at a dead stop. If not, have the front suspension checked for wear and a front end alignment done. It is a good idea to replace the shock absorbers too, they are modern telescope type and not expensive.

Steering should be quite easy once you get moving. It is also possible the mechanism has not been lubricated properly. There are a lot of joints in the mechanism and they all need a shot of grease every 1000 miles.

Complete details of the lubrication service are in the owner's manual.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Very beautiful car, wish mine were as nice. I have a 47 Chrysler Royal Coupe, with a 228 engine and 3 spd trans and regular clutch froma 1951 Canadian Dodge. I do have a 251 engine, fluid drive and M5 trans too, not sure I will ever install those back, as I enjoy the current set-up.

I find a regular 3 speed trans, no fluid drive coupler and 3.73 diff, gives decent off the line performance, but you have to shift, and none of the around town benefits of a fluid drive.

Chrysler built many Dodge, Desotos, and even Chrysler Royals with a regular 3spd trans and fluid drive coupler, those you could drive like a standard, or keep trans in 2nd or 3rd, and drive without clutch, like an automatic nothing like the M5 trans, no electronics, or special carb. So you were right in assuming some of the fluid drive set-ups could be driven like a standard trans.

Some pics of my beast, need to have chrome all replated, well maybe someday... My car was extremely rough, I did the entire fix-up myself......Fred

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Edited by fred (see edit history)
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Forgot to mention, if the front suspension and steering checks out as good, and properly lubricated, chances are you need a front end alignment. If properly aligned and in good condition, the steering should be light, easy, and with good self centering action. It may seem a little slow and wooly compared to modern cars, you just have to get used to that. As you already have cars from that era it should not be unfamiliar to you.

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Nice car Fred, well done.

Thanks for the advice Rusty, front end is good, played with the tyre pressures - after I found out the right front had a split valve stem - at 30 psi, she steers well. It drives similarly to my 53 Buick which is also on crossplys. Not as well as the 48 Caddy which you'd expect as it's on radials. A downside with the radials is heavy low speed steering and harsher ride. I wonder if we had access to crossplys of similar quality to the radials we can buy whether the tramlining and wander would be as pronounced. On balance I prefer my old cars on crossplys because of the more authentic feel.

I've been playing around with different ways of driving the car, to alleviate the very slow take off if there is even a slight incline. What seems to work is to use low range until its in second and then change to high range. Frankly, its embarrassing in traffic if left in high range unless starting from perfectly level or a slight downhill.

I've been cleaning and attending to small jobs. when I took the drivers side scuff plate off I found this number, 1149096. I assume this is a Briggs body number?

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That number on the rocker sill is the part number. It's possible the rocker panel sill has been replaced because it shows the part#. Also there is the decorative aluminum sill plate that covers the area showing that part# and edges up to the rubber step plate. The T&C is shown but the same type of aluminum trim sill plate.

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Edited by c49er (see edit history)
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Have you done a compression test on the engine? It is possible it is down on power due to age and wear. Old Chrysler built flathead engines are foolers. They will continue to run without protest even when well worn. The only symptom is lack of power and eventually, hard starting. If the engine is in good nick and properly tuned up it should have enough power for all practical purposes. It won't win any races but won't embarrass you in traffic either.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest jasndal

The car has arrived in Australia and I registered and drove it home yesterday using your excellent operating instructions. The car is in excellent condition and there are only a few small issues that need to be attended to. I am disappointed that the beautiful passenger side swan neck mirror is next to impossible to see fron the drivers seat.

I drove using high range as advised and without the clutch but noticed that take offs are woefully slow. I'm not sure if its changing down to the lower of the high range gears when it comes to a stop. I need to drive around when theres no traffic and its quiet to check this.

The front end appears to have been rebuilt and in good condition. The steering is very heavy and doesn't self centre particularly well. Is this normal or an alignment issue? The car is on cross plies to correct pressures.

Regards

I have a 1941 Windsor with Vacamatic Fluid Drive. The only difference between it and the '46-48s is that the shift is vacuum controlled instead of hydraulically, with no involvement by the driver, except for lifting the accelerator to signal the shift. My personal method of driving it is to simply hold,the foot brake while releasing the clutch and moving out. On occasion, I need to creep away at an idle and then I slowly release the clutch without use of the brake.

As to the slow take off, you might ensure that your tire pressure is as prescribed for the car. I find that also affects the easeof steering, which is quite light, for a heavy car. My acceleration from a stop is not neck snapping, but never a problem, even in rush-hour, heavy traffic. I am able to easily parallel park with one hand, while turned to look over my shoulder. My front suspension and steering are in excellent condition and both steering and re-centering are quite good.

good luck! I think you will really enjoy driving the car when you become accustomed to it.

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Thanks for your responses, I took the car to an annual All American Day yesterday where it won a trophy for 2nd Place in the Mopar Division, unexpected as I had already left.

As for the steering, there was a slow leak in one of the front tyres due to a perished valve stem. Once I fixed this and pumped the tyres up, no problem with the steering, no wander either and very little tramlining so this is good.

I have been driving it around, getting used to it and I now understand it better. As far as I can tell it has a small problem in that it does not always engage third gear when I come to a rest, hence the very slow take off. I have been depressing the clutch and it mostly changes down but again, not always. Low range all works fine. If it changed down correctly I can see how it could be mostly driven in high range.

Is this a matter of adjustment or more complicated?

Regards

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  • 5 months later...

Not changing down as you describe can be caused by dirty points in the governor. Over the years oil can work its way in and gum up the points. Take the cover off and spray with contact cleaner, and drag a strip of white paper between the points. Do not use a points file or sandpaper, the points are a soft silver based material, not tungsten like ignition points.

Do this every 25 years ha ha.

Could also be a fault in the wiring or control switches. If you do a search for the Chrysler Imperial Club they have a lot of original Chrysler service literature online, including how the Fluid Drive and Hydraulic Transmission operates, and how to troubleshoot and repair it.

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