1923 Gray Showroom Condition

Any idea what one of these is worth?

They are extremely rare...

Is it for sale,what is your intention.Not much info here.With no pics,or the needed info,nobody will know?Rare does not always mean big bucks.Rare sometimes mean ,making ,or someone else making parts needed,thats big bucks.Give us something to go by.Glad you are here.

Show-room condition can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Anxious to see some photos and get some more info.

Im looking at buying one.

Like to know there market value thanks

The guy is asking $125000.00

There is a brochure for a 1923 Gray on Ebay now. They are 4 cylinder, 40HP, sort of look like a Model T and were designed to compete with the T for sales according to the standard cataog of American Cars. 14,772 were built by June 1923.

$125,000.00 seems a bit expensive to me but I'm no expert. If it was a high end car it may be worth that sort of money but it's not IMO.

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

Wasn't the Gray an assembled car? My guess is it's worth maybe 1/3 the asking amount at best, likely less.

Considering we have no photos (hint, hint) to prove otherwise, my guess is also $25,000-$30,000 at most. If you are inexperienced dealing with 1920s cars and think this is a rare item suitable for killer investment potential RUN the other way IMO. Todd

Are you sure the decimal point isn't off by one position? That's crazy money for such a car. I can't find any records of one selling for anywhere near that amount--you could buy four or five of those I've found for that price. Rarity doesn't necessarily make a car valuable. Even if this is the only one of its kind, I don't think that adds significantly to its value simply because of a very limited market. Being one of one of something nobody really wants means it's an interesting footnote in automotive history, not an investment-grade icon. For $125,000 you could have any number of seriously important, powerful cars instead of this one, which, as someone points out above, is perhaps one or two steps above a Model T. More details, photos, body style, history, etc. will help us narrow it down, but if it's the Gray we're all thinking of, it's seemingly over-priced by several orders of magnitude.

Of course, if it's worth $125,000 to you, well, then there's your answer. This is a hobby where you should buy what makes you happiest, not what you think you can make a buck on (and I'm a dealer!). If the car appeals to you and you can afford it, then only you can decide how to proceed. It's often a mistake to purchase an old car thinking of it as an investment. Do it for the love.

Terry and Jeff hit the nail on the head. If it's Pebble Beach quality "showroom condition," then the seller probably has at least $125 in it. Which would translate into meaning its retail value would be "around a third... likely less", as many times rarity does not translate into high value. If a perfectly restored 1923 Ford Model T is worth "X", the perfectly restored 1923 Gray would likely be worth no more.

"Showroom condition" and "Museum quality" are two of the most miss-understood terms in the collector car hobby. There are not many museums that can afford to restore, buy and display "perfect condition" automobiles. It is not unusual to walk into a museum and find that they slapped on a quick coat of paint and some vinyl upholstery to make them look halfway decent, especially on a car like the Gray.

There hasn't even been any mention as to what body style. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference, as once you determine the value of a Ford Model T in similar condition and body style, you've pretty much set your value on the Gray. As Matt alluded to, I think the O.P. has put the decimal point in the wrong place, which would be the value of the car in nice usable condition.

No pics not my car to post there are 5 here in Australia they are rare.

This car is as if you walked into the dealer perfect.

Anyway its a tourer 1923 Gray all in mint condition

Thankyou so much for the insight very much grateful.

Calling The Amazing Kreskin. Or let's all get out our crystal balls.

Seriously, for that kind of money you should pay for an experienced appraiser. Unless the seller is out and out nuts. In that case save your money, they won't listen to an appraiser or anyone else.

There is a Gray-Dort (Canadian version of a Gray)in very nice shape for sale here in Ontario Canada for less than $20G's. I'll see if i can find the ad.

Even if the shipping cost $7g's it might be worth looking at.

Here's the ad;

1921 Gray Dort Touring Car

Canadian made

Road worthy, numbers matching, older restoration, author's car.

The only 1921 in private ownership.

$20,000

1921 Gray Dort Touring Car - Ontario Collector Cars For Sale - Kijiji Ontario Canada.

Been 3 years since this post but saw it and wondered if anyone else has acquired a Gray Dort or maybe this fellow did. I have acquired a 1919 Gray Dort barn find. AS for value of a Gray Dort......there are less then 100 that exist and less then 50 that run so they would be rare. They are worth what a person wants to pay as is all stuff. They would be worth more then a Model T.

Typo

Rags

I would guess one in good shape should be worth twice as much as a model T. But, if it is rough and parts missing, could take you forever to track down the parts.

Been 3 years since this post but saw it and wondered if anyone else has acquired a Gray Dort or maybe this fellow did. I have acquired a 1919 Gray Dort barn find. AS for value of a Gray Dort......there are less then 100 that exist and less then 50 that run so they would be rare.

There is one in the Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?46595-Orphan-of-the-Day-12-02-1924-Gray-Dort&highlight=dort

Craig

One early-car specialist calls cars of the 1916-circa 1927 years

"Dark Era" cars. Often with painted radiators, they don't have

the flashy brass of the earlier cars, nor the more graceful styling of the

late 1920's and after. And, regrettably, there is little current interest.

I think most languish in museums or back corners of old collections.

When at Hershey, many people like to look at them; but few aspire to

own them. Most are older restorations because this era was more

popular among collectors in the 1960's. I myself have a 1916 of

another make.

Cars of this era, though, are interesting parts of history. They

deserve to be appreciated, preserved, and driven.

Enjoy your Gray and Gray-Dort; take it out; show it!

You'll generate interesting conversation at every car show.

Not all from the "dark era" lack flash. This is my 1919 Locomobile Sportif. The only addition from original is the horn.

Yes, James, since Locomobile was early to the game with custom bodies--

and their designers must have been talented--their custom-bodied cars

look several years in advance of most other makes!

Now try even to find for sale a Daniels or Cunningham of the same era!

They were top luxury cars, but since they are of the forgotten, dark era,

hobbyists in 2015 have barely heard of them.

Here are a couple of Cunninghams:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?47370-Orphan-of-the-Day-12-29-1919-Cunningham-V3-Touring&highlight=cunningham

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?47080-Orphan-of-the-Day-12-19-1926-Cunningham-Ambulance&highlight=cunningham

Craig

Years ago there was an article in one of the major antique auto mags, I think OLD CARS, where the author tried to come up with the dullest, least interesting, most mundane ho hum auto produced in the Dark Ages. The winner was the Gray. Even its name is sullen and depressing. The author's opinion, not mine.

Thanks, Craig ("8E45E") for the Cunningham pictures.

I note that they are in museums. Let the Cunningham

owners and owners of all the obscure makes get them

out on the road and to a local car show! I know James

took his Locomobile (pictured above) on a Glidden Tour--

congratulations!

That Locomobile is striking. But they were very high end cars and I don't think it can be compared to more humble, down market makes. Chrome/nickel and brass cost far more than paint (even back then)...

I'm told by a '23 Gray owner here in Maine that there are only 2 left. One in ME and one in TN, Why anyone would have bought a Ford T  (I have one) is beyond me when they could have had a Gray for the same price. Gray had more like Model A controls - Three speed transmission, gear shift, etc. 

5 hours ago, 1925ModelT said:

I'm told by a '23 Gray owner here in Maine that there are only 2 left. One in ME and one in TN, Why anyone would have bought a Ford T  (I have one) is beyond me when they could have had a Gray for the same price. Gray had more like Model A controls - Three speed transmission, gear shift, etc. 

When people claim there are only a certain number

remaining of any car, it is a guess and not at all guaranteed 

accurate.  For example, not all cars are listed in a marque club's

roster or census;  yet we frequently see claims like this for various cars.

Did your friend mean only two 1923 Grays he's aware of?

Or two 1923 Grays of a certain model?  Or two 1923 Grays

of a certain model and body style?

I'd be interested in seeing a Gray or Gray-Dort at a show,

since as you imply, they are seen far less often than Ford cars.

Specific year, specific model, specific body style, incomplete cars? A whole lot of ways to count them. All Gray automobiles are quite rare I have always been told. Forty years ago, I knew a fellow, a member of an antique car club that I had belonged to for a few years at that time, that had a beautifully restored Gray automobile. At that time, Bill Harrah was also still alive, and he had one in his collection. Because the cars were so rare, the fellow I knew, also knew Bill Harrah. They consulted with each other during both restorations. According to their research at that time, only seven complete cars were known to exist. Since then, I have heard of two more being discovered.

The Gray holds a special place in automotive history. Several people involved with the Gray automobile had been with Ford for quite some time. The car was produced in moderate numbers, and sold quite well. But the venture lasted only a few years, after which the cars suffered a dismal survival rate. From previous discussions on the AACA and other forums, there appear to be quite a few remains of scattered parts around the world. But the last intact car to be found that I heard about made hobby news around the world. But it didn't seem to pressure any more discoveries to be heavily reported.

As for part of the thread's original discussion. "Rare" does NOT mean valuable. There are several factors that figure into dollars value. Desirability, artistic qualities, power, potential club affiliations, among other things, all need to be considered in the value. It doesn't matter how "rare" it is. One out of five doesn't do it.

I've never seen a Gray and would be curious to see one if I could... my late father told me he learned to drive in a 1925 Gray. He was born in 1916 and I doubt he learned to drive before he was 20 (no one in his family owned a car or drove)... so that would have been in the 30s, by which time it was an old, and probably near worthless, car.

13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I've never seen a Gray and would be curious to see one if I could... my late father told me he learned to drive in a 1925 Gray. He was born in 1916 and I doubt he learned to drive before he was 20 (no one in his family owned a car or drove)... so that would have been in the 30s, by which time it was an old, and probably near worthless, car.

 I may see one tonight (depending on weather). Will take some photos. My login name is:   1927ModelT

When I was a kid, my dad had an engine for a 1921 or 22 Gray under his workbench. No idea where he got it, but he kept it to preserve it. One day a fellow member of the Southern Ohio Chapter of the AACA came by and spotted the engine lying there. When Dad told him it was from a Gray automobile, he said, "Hey, there is a guy in Cincinnati who HAS a 1921 or 22 Gray. He will want that motor as a spare!" Dad replied that he had offered it to that same guy for $25, but he turned it down saying he didn't need any spare parts. The visitor went right home and called the guy, and asked him where he would find a spare crank, head, or manifold if something happened to his car. In a few days, the guy called and reluctantly said he would take the motor. Dad said fine, it was $50 (Dad was very generous and supportive of other car collectors, so I suspect that the guy must have said something before which he didn't like; hence the increased price tag). Before long the guy came and got it. This was about 1971. 

One more story about that old spare Gray engine Dad had. In my 8th grade year, I had to make a science project, and was stumped on what to do. Dad had an idea. We went to the garage, and removed the distributor and coil from the Gray engine, and pulled 4 new spark plugs out of a box somewhere. Dad showed me how to hook up a transformer from my model train set, and we assembled the distributor, coil, spark plugs, and wires onto a wooden stand. The plugs were mounted under a running strip of brass metal to give them a ground, and ground wires were run to the coil and distributor. Then when we turned on the transformer, I could turn the distributor gear and cause each spark plug to fire in order. 

I took the project to school, along with a paper which I wrote which described the path an electrical current had to follow in a vehicle to get from the battery through the ignition switch and to the coil, and passing through the points and back to be boosted by the coil, and then back through the large coil secondary wire to the rotor, and thence to the correct spark plug. When I demonstrated it in class, the teacher was flabbergasted...especially when I explained that the functioning parts of my little project were all from an uncommon antique car engine. 

I got a "A" on the project, by the way. LOL

I was at the Greenfield Village Old Car Festival a few years ago and saw a triple black Gray roadster. As I recall, it was a 1922 model.  It was beautifully restored by the owner, a nice older gentleman, who has owned it for many years and finally got around to doing it.  I don't have pictures readily available to post, but it was a nice looking car.

I think the reason the Ford Model T stayed popular for so long was because Ford had been in business for many years, parts were readily available, and they were easy to work on.  By the early 20s, many car companies had already come and gone, and parts became difficult to find.  Even if another make was a better car, it was a gamble to buy, knowing that the company may fail during the next recession or due to undercapitalization.    

Here is a touring.

Craig

Sometimes fun to read these old threads again. I have through another antique automobiles forum gotten to know a fellow that owns two Gray automobiles. He is finishing one, and hoping to restore the other. It is still believed to be about ten (give or take one or two?) surviving complete Gray automobiles existing in the world. 

Gray, Dort, and Star, all seem to get mixed up together. On-line and book references are confusing, and not consistent. However, I do not think the Gray and the Dort are one and/or the same.

9 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

However, I do not think the Gray and the Dort are one and/or the same.

Gray (from Canada) and Dort (from Flint, MI) are  one and the same.

 A 1922 Dort and a 1924 Gray-Dort.

Craig