Not all of my schemes...

Not all of my schemes work as planned. I decided to install an electric fan on my 55 Century (in the avatar). The stock mechanical fan cools adequately until I get stuck in traffic on hot days, then the temperature slowly climbs to 230*+. Also the water pump bearings fail at 15-20k miles and my thought was to try to take some load off. The fan I chose was the same one I have on my 51 F-1 with the nailhead (16" 2100 cfm @ 9 amps) and on that vehicle I could not be happier with the performance. On the Buick it failed to do as good as the mechanical fan. To try a fan with more output I will have to modify the charging system or get more output. Maybe next year, since now it is time to drive!

I did research on adding an alternator and with the help of a friend at the local starter/generator/alternator shop and the 55 Buick wiring diagram we worked out a very simple solution to keep the full function of the gas pedal start system...I'll post details when I actually do it. I had also brought along to be tested, a very large unidentified generator that was on one of my 55's when I got it (probably for police/ambulance use). Anyhow to our amazement, that sucker put out 60+ amps! So that is another possibility. Maybe next year...

Willie

Seems odd it would be less efficient. Isn't there fans with higher pitch to push more air at low rotation?

Willie, was this an added fan, retaining the stock fan and used just when needed?

The fan replaced the stock fan and was mounted in the shroud as a puller as per instructions...first against the radiator and then at the back of the shroud like the stock mechanical fan.

There are higher output fans out there, but they require more current and since the fan worked well in the truck, I though it would work well on the Buick (too much thinking...)

I liked using it, since the engine was much quieter, and I was getting 2 mpg better gas mileage.

Willie

Try mounting it in front of the radiator and retain the stock fan as well. Use the electric at stop lights only.

Try mounting it in front of the radiator and retain the stock fan as well. Use the electric at stop lights only.

There is no way to get it in front of the radiator without disassembling most of the front of the car....

Willie

Must be tight in there and different than the 54.

willie,could you post some pics of the pickup with the nailhead? friend of mine had a 57 ford custom 300 with a nail but can't recall what size that was in 63. i remember you at danvers at the forum breakfast.broke my leg a month ago so looks like charlotte is out this year unless i heal fast. good luck with your fan,4 bufords from ct

This does not show the fan...

thats a good lookin nail head in that ford.in my opinion nails look good in anything,4 bufords from ct

Just a thought, fit a fan and fan clutch instead of a electric or standard fan. Junkyard fan and I bet a new fan clutch would fit the water pump pulley studs. The fan will engage at stop lights or when hot enough. It will disengage when underway. Much quieter and efficient. Less expensive than a better generator to run a high speed fan. I bet it could work.

Just a thought, fit a fan and fan clutch instead of a electric or standard fan. Junkyard fan and I bet a new fan clutch would fit the water pump pulley studs. The fan will engage at stop lights or when hot enough. It will disengage when underway. Much quieter and efficient. Less expensive than a better generator to run a high speed fan. I bet it could work.

I am considering that also. If the fan is contributing to the water pump bearing failures, that would not help.

Right now I have a 6-blade from a parts car that had an aftermarket unit (replaced the 5-blade that was standard with factory a/c); that 6-blade is much noiser --- turn up the radio!

Willie

Don't quote me but I believe the clutch type fan is less stressful on the water pump bearing. The fan does less work at speed. It works hard at stops and heavy traffic.

One other fan to consider is a flex fan. Noisy at idle but pulls a lot of air. Quiet at speed. Also very light weight and less stressful on the pump. Didn't the 57's start getting clutch fans?

I put a fan I salvaged off of a junked Porche 928 on my 1955 Buick wagon in a pusher configuration for use during slow cruising and parading. That fan will just about suck you into the radiator if you walk by too close! The only problem is the current draw--the old generator just can't keep up! I look forward to seeing what you came up with for an alternator installation.

The only problem is the current draw--the old generator just can't keep up! I look forward to seeing what you came up with for an alternator installation.

Yeah, solve one problem and create another (or many) problem. It will be next year before I work on the fan again...time to start driving!

Willie

Not being a electrician but is it possible to add more windings (turns) to the generators innards so output is greater?

One other thought....would a larger diameter pulley that would spin the generator more than what the standard pulley does solve the low output?

One other thought....would a larger diameter pulley that would spin the generator more than what the standard pulley does solve the low output?

You have the concept backward...you need a smaller pulley. The last GM cars that used generators had smaller pulleys, as does the dual belt a/c pulley I have now. But that does not help with the total output, only the output at lower rpm (idling).:eek:

Willie

Engineer I'm not! . So output across the rpm range will not increase output? I would think at low rpm is were you need the higher output. Any other rpm is spinning the generator enough to provide sufficient output. How about more turns of coiled wire inside the generator?

old-tank, could you post the wiring details for the alternator install? I have a standard Delco 3-wire 10si 63amp alternator that I desperately need to install, but haven't been able to find any concrete information on retaining the push-to-start function.

Thanks

old-tank, could you post the wiring details for the alternator install? I have a standard Delco 3-wire 10si 63amp alternator that I desperately need to install, but haven't been able to find any concrete information on retaining the push-to-start function.

Thanks

I guess you saw that in post #1. I have not actually done it yet, maybe next year; time to drive what I have.

Maybe you can work out the details, and then I won't have so much to do.

Anyhow for it to start the starter relay must have a ground. That is the green wire that goes to the ARM or GEN terminal on the voltage regulator, meaning that ground is supplied by the non charging generator through the armature. When the generator starts charging there is no ground and the starter cannot activate (that is one safety item; the other is the vacuum switch on the carb). To get the car to start without a generator, just ground the green wire permanently, but that disables one of the safety features. Now the thing that we worked out is to add another relay that would supply the needed ground only during starting and when the alternator starts charging that connection would be broken. The circuit on the alternator that would light up the charge or alt lite on the dash could be used: key on lite on, start car, lite off and ground circuit for starting broken.

For the alternator to charge the system connect the same large wire that went to the ARM terminal on the generator to the output terminal on the alternator; then at the voltage regulator jump across the GEN and BAT terminals or just connect both to the same terminal.

Willie

Thanks for explaining the safety features. I've been doing some reading and it seems like your relay idea could work, but I'm wondering if it can be done without one. I've attached a diagram, hope you don't mind.

I'm not sure if you've seen this site: "Push Gas To Start" with an Alternator

It's not confirmed since the author hasn't had the chance to update it. Through email, he mentioned to me that a diode was not necessary in his case since the coil and alternator are on separate terminals. Our cars pretty much have the same wiring as his '58. He did mention that he has it running and it's working properly.

Terminal 1 on the alternator provides a ground when not charging and 12v when it is. This should be able to provide a ground for the starter solenoid when the car is off, and replace it with 12v when running, breaking the connection. The only part I'm worried about is whether or not the solenoid will have a true ground when the key is in the on position. In other words, will the point past the resistor/light bulb (where the pink/green/blue wires connect) still be ground when the key is on? If so, I think this would work.

The posted diagram is too simplistic and confusing since the important starter relay is not included. The wiring diagrams in the link explains what I have been thinking about. If terminal 1 on the alternator provides a ground when not charging and 12v when it is, then the mystery is solved without a relay. The only way to know for sure is to put it together and try it.

Willie

Sorry, I meant to write "starter relay" instead of "starter solenoid". The colors in the original match my 56's wiring diagram. I'll try it out and get back to you.

Just a quick update. I installed the alternator and wired the car like the picture above. It starts up with the pedal and works well, but doesn't shut off when you kill the ignition. This leads me to believe that it's backfeeding through the light bulb circuit, and needs a diode. Anyone know which diode is appropriate for this application?

PowerGen Powermaster alternator have a solution worked out for the push to start when converting to an alternator. I got this from V8Buick but the link to the wiring diagram is no longer good. This poster of this message has not been active over there in 18 months. But, I'll try and contact him for a copy of the wiring diagram.

From V8Buick.com

Regarding the modification of the PowerGen alternator, I'll eventually get to some aspects of re-wiring the engine (including this special alternator) and want to keep it all together in this one thread. So I'm transferring some of the verbage from a seperate post to here to keep it all in one place.

For this ’57 Riviera we’re doing, we wanted an alternator that retained the looks of the original generator and with the same bolt up pattern.Powermaster has a one wire alternator that does exactly that and is very reasonably priced. However, there was one other feature we needed in order to duplicate the original starter performance and reliability. This related to the so called ‘push to start’ function. After contacting them and exchanging some pertinent information, they promptly came up with a modification (which can be quickly done upon request) to their one wire alternator that duplicated the function of the original stock set up.

Short Answer:

Needed the alternator to perform the same function as the original generator by providing a ground through the starter relay and then taking away the ground when the engine starts and generator is turning. This is the ‘redundant’ back up to the possible failure of the vacuum function of the steel ball in the carburetor at the accelerator switch which opens and closes the ignition to starter circuit.

Long Answer:

Without getting too technical, the accelerator switch on the carburetor closes when you push the pedal down due to the small steel ball being forced up against the two ignition terminals (by the throttle shaft) on the carburetor, The engine starts and vacuum pulls the ball away opening the switch and the starter disengages. At the same time, the starter relay loses its ground when the OEM generator starts turning and puts current up to the ground side of the starter relay. That’s the backup (plan B if you will) in case the little steel ball ‘sticks’ or is gummed up and the starter doesn’t disengage when the engine starts pulling vacuum and begins running. It required an internal modification to the alternator itself and the addition of a simple ISO relay to the starter circuit, which when energized, took away the ground at the starter relay..just like the generator did.

Some pictures with comment:

PictureTrail - Online Photo Albums

Willie,

Just to add my $ .02.

I put a Hayden 6 blade flex (stainless steel) on my '40 Buick, and I had to snip 3/8" off the back of the blades to clear the generator pully, but it really cooled her down.

I also have a plastic pancake pusher in front of the radiator, on a toggle switch, that I now only use for parades. Running 180-190F on regular drives around town.

Mike in Colorado

Willie,

Just to add my $ .02.

I put a Hayden 6 blade flex (stainless steel) on my '40 Buick, and I had to snip 3/8" off the back of the blades to clear the generator pully, but it really cooled her down.

I also have a plastic pancake pusher in front of the radiator, on a toggle switch, that I now only use for parades. Running 180-190F on regular drives around town.

Mike in Colorado

What's the amperage draw on that fan? Are you running 6v or 12v?

PowerGen Powermaster alternator have a solution worked out for the push to start when converting to an alternator. I got this from V8Buick but the link to the wiring diagram is no longer good. This poster of this message has not been active over there in 18 months. But, I'll try and contact him for a copy of the wiring diagram.

A plug for PowerGEN PowerMaster. They figured it out

Here's PowerGen's diagram sent to me. Thanks to Jack Jenkins

wow it's very small. maybe some can blow it up. I tried editing but I had no luck

A plug for PowerGEN PowerMaster. They figured it outHere's PowerGen's diagram sent to me. Thanks to Jack Jenkins

wow it's very small. maybe some can blow it up. I tried editing but I had no luck

Might be a photobucket thing, or you linked the thumbnail. Send me the original and I will see what I can do with it.

Hi all,

Just to add to my previous update- I was having trouble with the ignition not shutting off the car. As it turns out, when I switched to a smaller bulb, it shut off just fine (maybe the resistance was off?). Afterwords, I replaced the bulb with a resistor (56o 5w I believe, 15o 10w worked just as well) and it works perfectly. I will post an updated diagram when I get a chance.

Also, instead of tapping the pink 12v wire off the ignition, I took it directly off the starter relay. It made for a very compact install.

Additionally, I bypassed the ammeter by connecting both wires to a single terminal so as to not burn it out.

Hope this helps. I'll start a new thread to make it easier to find in the future.

Nice!

What's the amperage draw on that fan? Are you running 6v or 12v?

Running the origional 6 volt system, and the pancake motor is wired direct to the + side of the batt, so the amp meter "doesn't know it's there. Anything above a high idle centers the amp gage needle.

Mike in Colorado

Now I've got it! You were right Willie. I downloaded the thumbnail of the wiring diagram!

You'll need the ISO 6volt double throw relay listed

here it is;

I believe there are some vintage look alternators available- might be in hemmings. I'll be doing the same thing- I would go for at least an 80 amp alternator. By the time you add the stereo, AC, electric fan etc. you may as well have plenty of juice. As for the clutch fan, it would help but I still think you need a good electric fan for slow summer driving like parades. Your experiment was quite useful, as now I know that the fan needs to be fairly substantial. I thought about tacking on a small one for parades, but it probably a waste of time. All your heat load is at slow speeds, you gotta move some air, need to look at truck fans.

Sorry to bring this up from the dead...but I am still a bit confused. So if I follow the link that was provided, will that not give a secondary safety if the vacuum in the ball fails?

http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/PushGasToStartWithAlternator.htm

If so what would I need to do when wiring it this way to have this secondary safety feature? Put the relay in line? I believe my car is 12 volt (55 Century), so if that relay is 6 would it still work?

Dont want to mess anything up.

I haven't actually done this switch.

It is my understanding that the 6 volt relay will work with a "Power Gen" brand alternator. If you're installing a "Power Gen" brand you should contact them.

I don't know how it will work with another type of alternator.

55 is 12 volt

I haven't actually done this switch.

It is my understanding that the 6 volt relay will work with a "Power Gen" brand alternator. If you're installing a "Power Gen" brand you should contact them.

I don't know how it will work with another type of alternator.

Like James said....I have not done the conversion. This is the the 4th or 5th thread that discussed the conversion; we have done out best to research the issue; I think I could make it work with the info supplied; the big problem is: those attempting the conversion have never replied back as to whether it works or not. Advice: please try it and REPLY BACK!

Willie

I haven't seen this thread before. I noticed that the problem occurs in slow traffic on a hot day.

My '60 has been in a few parades. If the parade moves along smoothly at a walking pace I keep it in Drive and hold it back with the brake. I think the low RPM and the constant braking heat the transmission fluid, creating a high heat load in the lower radiator tank. The car will be spitting coolant past the judge's stand.

If the parade has lots of stops when I can put the car in Neutral I don't ride the brake, the engine and fan run faster, and it gets quick cooling breathers. A parade with lots of starts and stops shows better cooling.

So maybe the problem is not air flow, but an unnatural driving condition. Maybe a test trip in rush hour traffic could duplicate it. Just flip it into neutral and bring the engine speed up. Maybe you can't resolve two concurrent problems with one fix.

Bernie