What Type of Paint for a 1918 DB Touring?

Okay, I know the color was black, but did they use lacquer or enamel or what? And were the spokes clear or also painted?

I believe it was enamel Willy but I dont know on the spokes

Lacquer paints were introduced in 1924.

Japan Black enamel was common back then. Ford used it for the Model T.

Before 1924, if you wanted a colour other than black you used coloured varnishes.

I think it was 1914 when Ford went all black. As far as I know earlier Model Ts came in colors too. So all the other early car colors blues, reds, whites, yellows, etc. were all colored varnishes? Were they applied in layers to build up the color?

Starting at about 1917 D.B open cars and trucks were finished in high temp baked enamel. Laquers didnt come into play until 1925. I am unclear on the how they termed varnish finish, what exactly that covered in other words or how exactly the word was used.

Did Dodge Brothers not use nitro cellulose? I don't know the answer and I only ask, because I thought , with the exception of Ford, it was in common use elsewhere through the twenties onwards.

Ray.

Willy, maybe this booklet would help........ (First Half)

Bill

Willy, Second Half........

Bill I have not read that yet but let me just say you are THE MAN. That is what being a good D.B is all about. It is a priveledge to share this on-line forum with you

To clarify the "varnish" process, this was also known as coachpainting. A heavy undercoat consisting of white lead bound with boiled linseed oil was first brushed on and let dry (up to a week). The undercoat performed the function of a primer/surfacer and was subsequently rubbed down flat with a mixture of pumice and oil. Colour coats consisting of white lead, boiled linseed oil and selected colour pigments were then brushed on at daily intervals. Each coat was rubbed back with the aforemented abrasive. The final coats were clear oil-based varnish. As the the clear varnish was not UV stable, it tended to darken and crack, necessitating its removal and replacement after a couple of years.

While the skilled labour costs associate with this process may not have been a large problem, the time taken was in a mass production environment. The introduction of DuPont's nitrocellulose system (DUCO) in 1926 overcame the time problem as nitrocellulose finish dries almost instantly through solvent evaporation rather than the atmospheric oxidisation of oil-based paints.

The drying speed problem had previously been partialy addressed by the use of oven baked Japan. The oven baking accelerated the oil drying process but precluded the use of colour - hence all those black Fords and Dodges.

I could be wrong but from memory, Oakland was one of the first makes to use nitrocellulose lacquer. I also recall that at first it was not rubbed down but left as a matt finish.

Also a pleasure, thank-you very much Tony

Tony, I have not heard the term white lead since my apprenticeship in the early seventies. You are correct that it has oil to keep it a liquid. Looked like heavy white paint. It was used in our shop as a coating on a shaft before a coupling or a gear was pressed on. We called it a hillbilly fit because the lead would fill any voids when the liquid dried. I NEVER thought it was used as a primer/filler! It's been banned in this country since around 1980. Nice info......

Bill

Bill

White lead (lead oxide) was also used in house paint until they discovered why kids were being born with two or more heads. I believe the same condition was attributed to leaded petrol (gasoline).

That is an interesting document all right.

Nitrocellulose lacquer first appeared on the 1924 Oakland - Oakland Blue.

The problem with the coloured varnishes, as stated by others, was the need for multilayers and the length of time from the application of the first layer to the completed body. Willys-Overland, in an article to its dealers in the early 1920's, stated it took about two weeks to complete the body. The Willys body plant was a multi-storey affair that began body assembly on one floor, and the body worked its way down the line, and down the floors, to completion at the other end of the building.

Japan Black enamel took about an hour to dry using heat. Which is why Ford switched to Japan Black and was able to eliminate a major jamb in the production of cars. And Ford could increase body production without expanding their body plants.

The problem with lead, and mercury, is that the accumulation of lead and mercury in the body can damage cell membranes and affect the body's production of various chemicals. And lead can result in damage or death to many cells, such as brain cells. Lead does not lead to two heads or three legs, etc., rather the end result is lead poisoning - and death.

Bill

Toronto, ON

Bill, all, you have made my day! Thank you for so much accurate information! This is one of the joys restoring a car, rather than rodding it out - you get to learn so much about the original car. And this forum has so many wonderful people! Now I'm going to look for the book Bill so graciously made available. But I'm copying it for now. I'll be painting my 1952 Dodge pickup this summer, so I'll try all these ideas out on it first, then do the '18.

The DBs open cars were from the beginning Baked Enamel. The wheels were dark blue with zinc plated rims and mounting hardware including the pass through bolts on which were affixed the rim clamps. No the hubs were not black.

What about the engine?

What about the engine?

Hi Willy, good thing Bill brought this back up to the top, at the time I did not know the answer to this question but went looking and have just read that the engines were enameled in Ditzlers Motor grey.

That would be all engines up to AT LEAST ( and I am sure beyond ) 1920

I have no further info at this time but will keep my eyes open

The engine color is a gray green it is available from Tom Myers early Dodge

I'll try to post some pic of my 1916

Pretty car

Does anyone know of a supplier of Ditzlers Motor Grey in Canada?

Ok so what color were the hubs? Everyone I have seen is painted black including mine, are they zinc color also?

Have any of you seen the video of the Dodge Brothers assembly from around 1920 or so?

It shows them painting the bodies with what resembles a fire hose and the paint runs down and drips off the lower part edges. A lot of toxic stuff going on in that movie. No wonder the Detroit River and Lake Erie were so polluted! A friend of mine has a 1919 that is dark maroon, not black. Would that be an original color choice, or black only? BTW, his car still has the original interior(leather) and top fabric.

One thing which struck me on reading through those original papers on refinishing, kindly posted by Bill, was what they call "oil sand". I will have to try soaking sand paper in linseed oil and see if it is as good as it obviously was in the old days. Why did it die out, I wonder?

Ray

My Father, an art teacher, was a big fan of linseed oil. I used to watch him polish thing's with pumice and linseed. With the advent of spraying and pouring paint, brushstroke's were becoming a thing of the past and of course technology advanced.

Thanks for that, Foggy. I had not thought about brush strokes being visible. My own father's memories of the coachworks finishing was how they would get what looked like a fantastic finish but continue with the rubbing down and re - varnishing untill they were happy with it. No orange peel effect or "that will do" in those days!

Ray.

Are the hubs the same Dodge Blue as the spokes?

Roland

Willie,

The open cars with all steel bodies were treated to a baked enamel. The closed cars with wooden framework were in 'Color varnish' Roughly similar to today's clear coat. The wheels were dark blue in entirety that means fellow band, spokes, drive hub, brake drums. The rims were zinc plated including the rim clamps and bolts. The first 'Clear' natural spokes were offered on the '26 Sport models only.

Rodger "Dodger"

awesome info, thanks.

The coloured varnishes used before the advent of lacquer were the old pre-synthetic varnishes. They usually applied three coats to get good coverage and colour while the luxury vehicles went four or more.

Each coat took a week to dry so it was three weeks or longer to get a body from bare wood and steel to a point where the interior could be installed. No two hours and another coat back then. Which is also why body plants were so large back then. You needed to store the bodies somewhere for a week while they dried.

And, that was also the main reason for Henry Ford's dictum, "Any colour you want, so long as it is black." Ford used Japan Black enamel which dried in about an hour under heat. And it had a nice gloss without any polishing. Henry did not start offering colours other than black until after lacquer was introduced. Dodge Brothers touring cars were also offered only in black enamel for the same reasons.

Thanks for all the scans.

A '17 owner.