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Shop restoration/labor costs vs self restoration


rapidride2

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Lately i have been interested in doing my first body off restoration. Today's labor rates for restorations along with the cost of a desired,finished #2 car. I do not paint or bodywork but have a very good connection in that department. I do have a place to do such work. My intentions are to get a hold of a car that has minimal rust issues that is complete and that can be completely disassembled, rebuilt, refinished, and reassembled.

Question:

Are there any guys on here that have actually saved money on doing most of the restoration work on their cars? I ask this because most say they lose money even if they do their own work.

I am in disbelief of what the car market has done the last 10-15 years (even in these hard times) I must say i am looking for an alternative than paying for the labor rates of today's restoration shops.

As i bounce this idea around in my head,,,,

ANY ADVICE would be greatly appreciated.

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For whatever reason this is what i am having a problem grasping.

For instance i feel i can perform a frame off restoration to my rust free 76, silverado for approximately12-14k. However if i took this to a reputable shop i could easily see 30-40k with today's labor rates. Naturally this wouldn't make sense as the labor of the shop would far outweigh the value of the finished truck.

I saw a west coast guy spend 230k on the complete rotisserie restoration of a 54 roadmaster convertible. The car was clean to start with. It's these labor rates that i am having a problem with.

On a side note i wouldn't exactly count my time on a dollar for dollar basis as i enjoy working on my own classics far too much to count every minute of my time.

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Costs have risen.

It's taken over two years for me to get the body of my 65 Electra Conv. ready to paint. New OEM fenders, sanded off all panels to bare metal, filled and primed with self-etching primer. Doors adjusted and body panel edge lines are pretty darn good. Complete interior and all chrome and weatherstripping taken off. Hard to guess what the cost would have been if I had it done professionally. I'm sure they'd have it done faster. I got a few prices on painting this summer after being put on 'hold' by a local shop. Most of the prices started at 5K for priming and painting. So I've decided to paint it myself in the spring. The shops all wanted to use Urethane and clear coat. I'll use Acrylic Enamel. I'm in the process of sanding the old fenders down and preping them exactly like I've prepped the car. I'll make a nice wooden stand that simulates how they would sit on the car and try my hand at painting them the first nice weekend we get in April or May. I've got an HVLP system I've used for many years painting houses both interior and exterior. Never tried it on a car, so this will be the first. I'm guessing I'll have under $500 in materials. Sea Foam Green Metallic color. I've got all winter to read up on what could go wrong. That means I'll have more $$$ available to buy my new conv. top. and maybe enough to have the trans rebuilt over the winter. That's one job that I'm not experienced enough to do. What does a rebuild of a ST400 run these days if I take it out of the car?

Thanks

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Guest shadetree77
You will not save any money doing a restoration. It doesn't matter who does it.
I agree with Dwight, it doesn't matter which way you go. In the end you are probably going to put way more into it than you could get out of it when it's done, especially in today's market. I say do it yourself. Not because it's more cost effective, but because of the simple fact that it's fun. If you enjoy it, that's reason enough in my book. Whatever you decide, good luck in your endeavors and keep us updated on the restoration!
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Guest Kingoftheroad

Most people will tell you, the chances you'll get your money back on a restoration are slim !! Restoring a car is a labor of love, doing it for the love of the automobile.

If your gonna keep the truck, fix it up the way you like it then enjoy it.. Don't worry about the money as long as you can afford it..

Edited by Kingoftheroad (see edit history)
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Another thing to consider is that just the parts necessary to do a complete restoration (or even hot rodding) can often add up to more than a car is worth. If you are going to paint, you need all new weatherstripping. Take the body off? New rubber body mounting pads. You end up spending $1000 just in rubber. More rubber costs, new tires. Everything adds up, and that's just parts.

For rapidride, good luck with your truck project.

For anybody else, ALWAYS buy the best car you can afford. You will always spend more than you expected to, whether you do it yourself or pay somebody else.

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Guest sintid58

I am repairing my 55 with the idea that when done I want a driver and don't want to have so much invested I am afraid to drive it whenever and where ever I want. The people that spend thousand totally restoring a car to better than new perfection will think it is a joke but it will look good and what is more important to me is drive good and if they don't like it too bad. Also unlike so many of them I won't have $100,000 invested in a $20,000 car and not be able to sell it if I decide I want to do that. Also as you can see by my signature I enjoy a variety of cars and would rather have a shop full of nice drivers to enjoy rather than one just to look at and haul around on a trailer.

Edited by sintid58 (see edit history)
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Guest Caribou

I've definitely squirmed about the price. I decided to do body on to spread the cost out a bit. (Then I spent the last three months and thousands of dollars finishing my garage before I even start this project.)

I frequently need to remind myself that this is meant to be fun, and that's why I'm doing it. Otherwise yeah, to me the math says go buy something that's already in good shape.

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Guest Skyking
I'll use Acrylic Enamel. Sea Foam Green Metallic color. I've got all winter to read up on what could go wrong.

Bill, if you've never painted a car before, I truly recommend using BC/CC painting any metallic color.......

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By the way Buick guys... Don't count me out as i also have a 52' 2-door roadmaster that i plan on enjoying just the way it is (other than mechanical repairs) rescued from a farmers field simply because it will be alot more costly restoration. I figured the 76 pickup would be an easier resto.

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Patience and tenacity are key ingredients to doing a body off. I have done two and have been very satified with the results. The first, a 1957 Caballero begun in 1984 and finished in time for the 1991 national show in Sacramento. The second a 1957 Roadmaster convertible begun in November 1991 and just finished (never really finished) this month. I warn you that life circumstances can cause signficant delays, but you seem to be up to the task and I think that you will enjoy the work and at a pace that you set yourself. If a spouse is involved, the project is that more enjoyable. I will attach some photos that will indicate just what I went through. The file names reflect the year the photo was taken. Dan

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Guest Rob McDonald

RR2, I agree with everything said here, that it makes no dollars and cents to restore most cars and even less so with trucks. Happily though, many of us aren't practical enough to really care about that. So we spend foolish sums of money and time bringing dead vehicles back to life - and the world's a better place for it.

CASE IN POINT: Dan's Magnificent Sevens ('57s, that is). I'll bet he didn't spend much time fretting about hitting that critical point, where he might have spent more on the cars than they could be worth at auction. Does that ever really matter, as long as you're pleased with the results? Huge bonus if your spouse is pleased, too.

Speaking from north of the border, single stage acrylic enamel isn't available anymore, due to environmental limits on VOCs. I had my MBG painted with it six years ago. The nose of the car was recently backed into and it's now in for repairs. The couple of shops I talked to said they'd have to try to "dumb down" the gloss of base coat/clear coat to match the old finish. Interesting to see how that turns out.

Edited by Rob McDonald
overlapping posts (see edit history)
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I'm a trimmer, so don't quite understand the base coat clear coat question.

It seems to me that a paint job with color all the way through (i.e. no clear coat) would be best.

My Pierce is painted with Glasurit, about 8 years ago. It's not a "deep" paint (as is the old lacquer paints), but it shines and looks great, and is very durable. Perfect for a car meant to be driven....

I once heard that clear coat was developed because of the high cost of primary paint, thus you could put on a base coat, then build it up with less expensive paint. I'm sure someone will comment on that.

I've also heard that it's difficult to fix minor problems with clear coat, as it's hard to make things blend...again, comments?

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Is there a market for that 76 Pickup?

Ha,, not much of a market for that 76 pickup. Very nice truck. I just figured that it would be an easier project to do a first full restoration to get my feet wet.

By the way John do you know a fellow in your neck of the woods by the name of Duane Dodds who owned a 56' Buick Roadmaster 2-door? (turquoise and white)

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Guest Skyking
I'm a trimmer, so don't quite understand the base coat clear coat question.

It seems to me that a paint job with color all the way through (i.e. no clear coat) would be best.

Not if a novice is doing metallic. A single application of metallic takes a lot of experience. When I painted my 66 Skylark, it was the 2nd car I had ever painted and being metallic I didn't want the blotcheness associated with metallic so I used DuPont bc/cc and it came out perfect. Anyone that seen it at the Buffalo or Flint Nationals would agree.

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Not if a novice is doing metallic. A single application of metallic takes a lot of experience. When I painted my 66 Skylark, it was the 2nd car I had ever painted and being metallic I didn't want the blotcheness associated with metallic so I used DuPont bc/cc and it came out perfect. Anyone that seen it at the Buffalo or Flint Nationals would agree.

I am lead to believe single stage metallic paint cannot be easily wet sanded ( color ( or colour depending on where you live) sanded) and will lead to blotches as the metallic particiles are sanded then polished.

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Guest Skyking
I am lead to believe single stage metallic paint cannot be easily wet sanded ( color ( or colour depending on where you live) sanded) and will lead to blotches as the metallic particiles are sanded then polished.

John, S/S Metallic Urethane can be sanded lightly and buffed as long as you don't go into other coats as far as I know. I don't know about enamels. Today I wouldn't paint with anything but Urethane single stage or BC/CC.

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We are in planning stages right now for a spring project and I was thinking of using single stage Urethane in the following pattern:

Day 1- three coats of the color without metallic.

Day 2- Wet sand till smooth and then three more coats of the color without metallic

Day 3 - Wet sand again and then one or two coats of color with metallic, and no polishing or buffing, assuming I have no runs drips or errors

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Most say you can't restore a car and come out ahead and I suppose thats true much of the time. I've done it 3 times and came out ahead and I've at a minimum broke even on everything else. You just have to invest time pre-planning. Most that fail is because of not doing their homework, picking the wrong car to start with and/or can't do alot of work themselves, or say make a bad decision and put a $6000 paint job on a car thats only worth $7000.

Hiring out a full restoration is for folks with excess cash flow that looking for a place to spend it and get some enjoyment. In this case I agree its very unlikely you could come out ahead and will be way upside down x 2 or 3 on end value vs investment. For poops and giggles I got a price from a high end shop for turn key work on the body portion of my current project. The cost for that alone would have been $40,000 and I still would have had to provide technical details if I was concerned about maintaining authenticity.

I am currently doing a body off on a 66 Riv and am doing most everything but the final body prep and paint myself. I started out with a budget and when one area goes over budget, I find ways to cut costs somewhere else. For example my engine ran over budget due to a cracked block. I had planned to pay someone to do the body sheet metal repair/welding. I bought a MIG welder and taught myself to do professional metal repairs. I estimate it paid for itself at least 6 times over and achieved the goal of getting the project budget back in line. I have a spreadsheet and am keeping track of every cost no matter how minor. Amazing how those little things add up.

Set realistic goals for a project and start by doing market searches and estimating what the market value would be of your candidate if completely restored, then start working backwards assigning real costs for each part of the restoration. Then add 25-30% for the unexpected and and see where you end up.

This research process takes time to correctly estimate new and used part costs as well as all labor you will be outsourcing. Time consuming yes but it can be the difference between having the project completed within a budget or fail part way because costs are far exceeding expectations. Unlike the government, if the project goes over budget we just can't raise taxes to bring in more money.

Nothing worse than getting half way through and realizing you are in over your head. Partially completed projects sell for pennies on the dollar unless its a very sought after model.

Edited by JZRIV (see edit history)
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My father and i were the ones who purchased the 56 from Duane. He was a very nice guy to deal with. We have been enjoying the car while making small improvements along the way.

I'm not surprised you are enjoying that car. It was a very nice automobile. And I know Duane spent a bunch of $$$ making that interior better than it was when he got it. Here's a pic of when Duane first got it and he brought it to my place to look it over with him.

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I can understand the problem with metallic paint. I happened upon a small gathering of cars today, mostly hot rods. One early 50's Ford was painted with a red, very metallic, paint. It was VERY obvious that the doors and fron fenders had been painted at a different time than the rear quarters, every angle showed a different metallic pattern and color variance.

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Guest Skyking
We are in planning stages right now for a spring project and I was thinking of using single stage Urethane in the following pattern:

Day 1- three coats of the color without metallic.

Day 2- Wet sand till smooth and then three more coats of the color without metallic

Day 3 - Wet sand again and then one or two coats of color with metallic, and no polishing or buffing, assuming I have no runs drips or errors

John, save yourself a lot of time and labor and $ and shoot the car with bc/cc. 2 coats of base (metallic) and 4 coats of clear. I say 4 coats of clear because most likely, you'll be sanding off two at the most. You won't be sanding the base. This is the Skylark I'm referring to.

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Edited by Skyking (see edit history)
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Guest Skyking

Getting back to the original thread, if you can do most of the work yourself, that is disassembling the car, bodywork & paint, buffing stainless, mechanical and bringing everything back to normal, you can save a ton of money. I know, because if I couldn't do all my own work, I wouldn't have the cars I now own. There's no way I could afford that outside labor.

Edited by Skyking (see edit history)
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I'm not surprised you are enjoying that car. It was a very nice automobile. And I know Duane spent a bunch of $$$ making that interior better than it was when he got it. Here's a pic of when Duane first got it and he brought it to my place to look it over with him.

That's the 56! Interesting pics John.

I have a question regarding your Super. Are those Kelsey Hayes wire wheels or reproductions? Do you run bias ply or radial tires? Have you had any problems with flats with the wire wheels? I love the look of the skylark wire wheel but have heard some horror stories with flats when using the wheels. Thanks, Matt

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That's the 56! Interesting pics John.

I have a question regarding your Super. Are those Kelsey Hayes wire wheels or reproductions? Do you run bias ply or radial tires? Have you had any problems with flats with the wire wheels? I love the look of the skylark wire wheel but have heard some horror stories with flats when using the wheels. Thanks, Matt

I can't retell my story of the wire wheels. Lets just say it is not pretty. My wheels are boxed up in a corner of my basement and will probably never see the light of day again.

I will say they are not Kelsey Hayes wheels, and they have the chrome spokes, not stainless steel spokes. My opinion is bias ply tires with chrome spokes, radials with stainless steel spokes.

Good luck.

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rapidride2,

From personal experience.

For the least total money/time invested your best deal is to find what what you want and buy it.

It is a rare occasion that someone spends years restoring a car and comes out a penny ahead.

That being said..... There are 3 considerations;

1. Does a guy or gal have $??,???.?? to lay out on the front side to buy what you want?

Some like me don't

2. Do you have a passion to stick with a project for several years (and a spouse who doesn't mind her car setting out all winter)? Over several years the things you don't have the skills to do (like a premium paint job) can be farmed out over time. I have a body guy who took my 63 every winter and did a little as I could pay him (amount not disclosed). Just make sure you can trust the Body Shop as there are horror stories of missing parts or cars.

Note for option 2; Some spouse might say"are you going that garage again?"

Your reply of course is "I could be heading to the bar".

Option 2 gives you the satisfaction of someday going a car show (or BCA National) and saying "Yep, I did that".

Option 3;

Hang out at your local casino or horse track and look for a guy standing next to a gorgeous "GS" with the obvious look that he just lost his whole paycheck betting on "Road to Rome" in the 5th race at Hialeah Park. Odds are you'll be able make a good deal.

Edited by RICK YOUNG (see edit history)
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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest kiwi56r

Have any of you guys ever heard of the saying " If you didn't build it its not really yours" There is something very gratifying to be able to answer yes to the question " so did you build it? " If we all did it for the financial returns we wouldn't have Buicks , compare the value of a 57 Buick convertible to a 57 Chevy convertible for example. We like what we like and we do it because we enjoy it. After all whats financial return on a trip to the Carribean or DisneyWorld and they usually end up going over budget too!

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Lots of good advice here, especially from Skyking. I completely agree on using basecoat/clearcoat for any metallic. I also shot all the panels at the same time and in their place to avoid the metallic flip flop described by Trimacar. I was surprised at how great BC/CC was to shoot, the basecoat laid down beautifully and as Skyking said the basecoat does not require sanding, that is all done with the clear.

Also in agreement with Skyking I can say that if I did not do my own work I could probably not own a restored 1957 Pontiac. BUT on the other hand doing my own work has cost me 15 years of free time and affected my choice of housing and the associated costs, so that has to be factored in. The free time is of course my choice of recreational activity. But remember that if you are going to be producing dust, noise, paint fumes, etc you may not be able to live in many subdivisions or neighborhoods without problems.

It sounds like rapidride is somewhat experienced in working on cars, so that was my first question. I think a body off on a pickup truck would be far easier to do in an average suburban garage than a 1950s Buick and might be a good start. Parts availability is certainly no problem and assembly is far easier. Just be aware of your limitations and be patient and careful. Todd C

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Guest ZondaC12
I can't retell my story of the wire wheels. Lets just say it is not pretty. My wheels are boxed up in a corner of my basement and will probably never see the light of day again.

I will say they are not Kelsey Hayes wheels, and they have the chrome spokes, not stainless steel spokes. My opinion is bias ply tires with chrome spokes, radials with stainless steel spokes.

Good luck.

That still makes me sick to think about. :( Stuff like that makes you want to go on a rampage...

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For a full frame off restoration you are looking at about 1500 - 2500 hours whether you do it yourself or send it out, so there is a substantial savings if you have the time and ability to do it yourself. One option not mentioned so far, is to look at your local communtiy colleges and see what is available. At one end of the spectum are the classes where you work on college project cars. These are good to fine tune or learn the basic skills. Learning to do body work and paint on a project Honda will make you ready to jump on your on project more effectivly. In other programs, you can actually work on your own vehicle. You have full use of the shop equipment and paint booths along with a professional instructor to guide you. Based on the program, your use of the facilities may work out to about $2.00 and hour and usually the schools have very good discount arrangements with material and paint suppliers. I taught a paint and body restoration class at a local community college for 10 years, offered on Friday nights and Saturday mornings. Eight hours a week. A frame off was difficult to do because of the space it would occupy, that was needed by other classes during the week, but we could work around that by pulling the body, storing the body at the owner's home and the owner hauling the frame back and forth each week. Not the best way to do it, but it did work and was cheap for the student.

The other benefit of going the community college route if you have never done a restoration before is that you will find out if you have the ability to do it. Some people can do good body work or good paint and others can do both well. Then there are those who can not "feel" the body work imperfections or "see" how the paint lays down. I could put a paint gun in the hands of someone who has never shot before and tell you in 5 minutes if I could teach him to paint. You never know until you try it!

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On the other end of the spectrum, I'm involved in a test of sending cars to Bangkok, Thailand for restoration and the first one is now an AACA Senior car and won an award at Meadowbrook. Before I'm bashed for sending work overseas, let me state that we have no restoration facility in the US, but use other shops to do the final 5-10% needed to get the cars show ready. Four cars have been completed so far and we have carefully selected what we are sending over in terms of market value. We've found that if the car has a restored value of $100,000, we can bring the cost in below that amount, including the purchase price of the car. These are full, frame off restorations of cars needing extensive metal work. We supply the parts from US sources, so our cost is the same there. In our next variation of this, we are sending the body only for metal work, body work and paint. We will do the sub assemblies here as well a the final assembly. Projected dollars look good, even considering the shipping cost. We have four more cars in holding to be restored there. With each one, we are improving the process. We'll see how this works out.

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Guest kiwi56r
Before I'm bashed for sending work overseas, let me state that we have no restoration facility in the US,

We have no restoration facility in the US ??????

Having had business dealings with people from some of these Asian countries like Thailand and China in the past I'd be very waryof getting work done there. I'd want to be able to see the work done at every stage! The business culture there is very cutthroat and they have no qualms about putting something over on you. If they can save a buck cutting corners they will and they won't loose a blink of sleep over it!

What are you going to do when the car gets back and there's a lot more bondo in it than promised? Send it Back??

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