1920's Era Restoration Vendors Inquiry

Just remember,it is a labor of love and not the cash.Go for it.It needs to be resurrected

The bodies built by Pullman had no connection whatsoever to the Pullman Automobile Company which built Pullman cars from 1905 or so until 1917 in York, PA, nor did Pullman Auto have any connection to the Pullman train cars. Pullman Auto simply stole the Pullman railroad car name because of their reputation for comfort and build quality.

Restorer32 is correct in pointing out the difference between the automobile company and the railway car builder. It's kind of confusing that there was Pullman railroad car company...and a Pullman Automobile Company...and a Peerless automobile company that used Pullman railroad car company coachwork. To make things worse, Mercedes-Benz appropriated the name for their 600 series Pullman Limousine 40 years ago.

Interestingly enough, the company that built the body for this 1924 Peerless Bryan is interested in was the same one founded by George M. Pullman in 1867* as the Pullman Palace Car Company in Chicago. The coachbuilt.com site has a number of references to the Pullman Company (name in use 1899-1947) building both their famous railroad sleeping cars and some automobile bodies. Some were production, like an order of 10,000 for Moon, and some were prototype or custom, such as a Packard Sedan shown at the 1924 Chicago Salon, according to coachbuilt.com.The Pullman Company archives document auto body production as well. Looking at them turns up the names Moon, Packard, Peerless, Velie, and Willys-Overland. There's even a mention of Peerless bodies in storage at the Pullman plant in Chicago in the summer of 1925. This makes 38 companies that built bodywork for Peerless, that I know of. See "Peerless Coachbuilders" thread on the Peerless forum here on the AACA Discussion Forums.

How many bodies for which firms were built, and why Pullman chose to build them, are enigmas. The antique auto dealer Significant Cars currently has a 1922 Packard Single Six Sport Phaeton for sale with a "Pullman built custom body". The description says that this Packard, compared to the standard body, has a shorter windshield, a longer cowl plus a narrower profile. Gullwing Motorcars in Astoria, NY has a 1921 Pullman Packard for sale (also a Phaeton). These are the only three cars with Pullman bodies I know of that still exist, but there must be more.

---Jeff Brown, former member Kansas City Area Archivists

*the Peerless company had already been in business two years at this point

I have found the coachbuilt.com site to be fascinating, especially in dealing with lesser known body builder programs like this. It is amazing how many companies were involved in body construction and in some cases on a large scale that are almost totally forgotten. Todd

Bryan,

You said that you don't want to do the body then find there's no way to get pistons or a radiator. I hope something like that doesn't happen, also, but there are no guarantees. I guess the folklore that goes with the car is that someone migrating from California to points east broke down in Montana and left the car. I'm guessing that this was in the 20s or 30s. The current owner also said the head was off for awhile, then put back on. Did they just run out of money and sell it, or did the starter motor fail or a piston start smoking? I really don't know.

Chances are good that there are a lot of surprises with a car in this condition. It would be kind of nice to know what's lurking inside the engine. I guess there is such a thing as an engine that's not rebuildable.

The before and after pictures, if someone restored it, would be great, I would imagine.

According to the 1926 6-72 Instruction Manual, which I sent you one-half of 2 years ago, this car has iron pistons and 4 piston rings per cylinder.

Jeff

THAT is why I tried to get Paul L to go lower last year. IF you buy a car for throwaway money, say $1200 to pull a number out, and find it's just too much, then you can stop and part it out or whatever.

BUT $2500 plus the cost to transport, for us that's getting into ouch territory if things can't be restored.

Tomatoes toe-ma-toes maybe.

The Quam collection has a Velie. I wonder if it has a Pullman body.

Why would Peerless go with Pullman except for cost considerations? Quality of coachwork? Seems Pullman had not proven they could build quality auto bodies (maybe other things).

Do you have a good mailing address for Paul L and Montana Classics? PM me if you do. Another fear is if it is paid for and such, what is Paul's incentive for making sure every available piece (i.e. the doors) are with the car when it comes back to Iowa?

This isn't a high production Chevy where you can get a replacement anywhere.

Bryan,

Maybe Pullman proved they could build bodies when they did a thousand for Packard 1921-1922. If Pullman was good enough to do custom coachwork for Packard at the Chicago Salon, they were good enough to do some for Peerless. Maybe they specialized in low-to-medium production runs or simply had space available. What we don't know is if Pullman completed hundreds of bodies for Peerless or just 10 or 20. As I recall, when the Model 70 first came out, it was only available in 2-P Roadster, 5-P Touring Phaeton, and 5-P Sedan versions. For all we know, they could have just bid on one body style, such as 5-P Phaetons.

---Jeff

P.S.: Sent PM, but no street address.

Somewhere I have a photo of a Pullman body being displayed on the street in NYC. It was an ungainly looking "transformable" roadster that by basically lifting the rear trunk section which was hinged at the back could be turned instantly into a touring car.

I think I have the Desert Classics guy's current email at home, a month or so ago a I received a follow up email from him on a "T" speedster I had inquired about (red, all together, $7,500 plus shipping, I thought a solid deal) around Christmas time. So he is still in business. If I remember right his terms are video and pictures but he does not make personal inspection available in most transactions. He will arrange the shipping though, and can quote you on it.

On the T, forum poster Daytona built one himself that came out so nice I am thinking I would like to try it, and have located a chassis if another frequent forum poster gets around to swapping the newly rebuilt engine out of it for the old one in his speedster...

If anyone is reading this and wants to actually see what the 1924 Peerless would look like if intact, please go to the Peerless Forum and read the post "1925 6-72 Phaeton" by "25peerless72" (on 2nd page of threads when I looked). This is a 1925 6-72, but mechanically identical to a 6-70. It is in fantastic HPOF condition, almost like it was driven for 10 years and then put in the Smithsonian. Main differences are hood, rad shell, 7-Pass. instead of 5-Pass., wind wings, second windshield, and presence of fuel gauge on dash (Sorry Bryan, you have to check the gas gauge at the tank on a '24!).

If you want to see the car for sale (charitably-speaking, a condition #6+ car), go to "Peerless restoration for sale" by "jbohan" (on 1st page of threads when I checked) and click on the highlighted area of first post. There is now a recent photo of the Peerless on this post.

Photo by Kathleen Brown, 2009

Bryan,

The body tag on this car shows a list of patent numbers applicable to the car. One is just six-digit, going back to 1869! I have no idea what it was for.

Reading the description of the car's top, it doesn't sound like there would be any wood top bows. I think there was steel tubing, possibly with a number of thin wood ribs atop them, cotton padding, waterproof canvas over that, and probably a light canvas headliner.

If you are still considering the car, and prefer to be surprised now rather than in the future, you could try to decipher the wheel size from the possible tire sizes I sent you and ask what a set of four would cost from a wood wheel specialist {12 spokes, hickory, steel felloes}. Going along with that, you could also look into:

1. radiator

2. tires, tubes, metal valve stems

3. rebuilding the entire set of wooden framing for the front and rear seating, plus the metal front seat back which is structural for a big phaeton like this

4. black leather upholstery(Devon's photos show what it should look like)

5. nickel plating

6. a gallon of blue nitrocellulose lacquer paint for the body and a 1/2 gallon black enamel for fenders

7. engine work

8. The real elephant in the room, which is the wood auto body parts. The photos show a few remnants, but it's all got to be replaced. Nothing exotic, just kiln-dried ash and maple.

......The cost for competent professionals to do numbers 1-7 will be less than the cost for number 8, so the restorer of this car will need to be peerless financially, as well as in the choice of the car he drives!

I lent you the Reynolds-Alberta Museum DVD on antique car wood body restoration. You may have noticed it had a fair amount of detail about the wooden frame components of an auto similar to this.

----Jeff

The last I heard of this car it was purchased by someone in Texas and advertised for sale in Hemmings Motor News, about September, 2013, for $6,900.