1920's Era Restoration Vendors Inquiry

I am considering the purchase of a rare 1924/25 car and it is a basket case. Before I get into something way over my head, I was wondering about the community's advice regarding what to do before purchase.

It is a 4 door touring with the drivetrain but it would need every "area" redone. Are there professional specialists out there for the engine, which is likely stuck, transmission, wood, etc?

Is it an urban myth that just about any part can be machined or made from scratch?

Are there shops that can help with wooden wheels restoration or replacement?

How mcuh interchange is there between cars in the 20's of headlights, electrical items and such?

Can radiators be fabricated or repaired?

Yes every part can be made, but what is your budget? It could be as much as the national debt if you have to farm out all the work.

Check out the website for White Post Restorations. I've heard that the quality of their work is second to none. Of course it comes at a price. In the end you will have to do your on due diligence to decide whether the expense will be worth it when you take possession of the finished product.

These things can get awfully expensive if you are letting someone else do all the work.

There are a lot of interchangable parts among different cars of that age.

There isn't anything that can be repaired/re-fabricated/restored. The issue is cost. Restorations are financial sink holes in almost every situation. A professional restoration of a complete large 1920s touring car that is in pieces will be a minimum of 200k - at least with any of the shops I'm familiar with.

Yes. I'd agree with the 200K mark at least, for a large touring car. To take a basket case and have it professionally restored, and come out "whole", then you'd need to be given at little or no cost (open cars) a Duesenberg, a 33/34 Packard 12, a 32-38 Pierce V-12, or similar.

Very few cars will get your money back for you.

If you have a lot of money, and want that specific car, then the dollars may not matter. I've seen that in many cases, 80-100K to restore a Model A because it was in the family for a long time, and the family had plenty of money.....

The car is $2500 and I have tried and tried to get the price lower. It is not a Duesenberg, Packard. It is a Peerless 6 Touring.

I have (had) 5 old cars and I am clearing them all out. So I would have a 3 car insulated and heated garage to do the disassembly and work. I can do some work and although I want it authentic, it does not have to be perfect.

I just wonder, if I get the engine removed, is there a shop I can send it to to do that specific part. I have time. Probably 7-10 years. The problem was the multiple cars. each car takes thousands of hours. But this would be it.

I can see myself buying junk seat springs from an older car and fabricating seats myself then sending them to an upholsterer. But, for instance, this Peerless Touring had a "fixed fabric" roof and the car as it sits is missing the bows. So I woudl need a true craftsman to "build" those. From scratch. I don't know anybody that provides that unique service.

I am aware of White Post but that's for the money guys. Last time I checked about 15 years ago they wanted a down payment of $20,000 and I doubt they would want to do only this or that.

I might be able to do the wood myself because it would not be visible and my lack of handy work would not be seen.

I am a former mechanic so I can do some disassembly and assembly but I can't fabricate.

I was at Fall Hershey last year but only for one day and I was still looking for 5 old cars, not one specific car so I am sure hershey has some vendors that can help and things like headlights which are generic.

Some in the Peerless club think this is the only one left of this model and year and it has body by Pullman, increasing it's rarity. But it's been passed over for years because of it's condition. It is located in Montana.

Dang, you guys are real downers. Sadly you are about right as to costs. To answer the poster's questions in more detail: Yes there are specialists in all the areas you mentioned. Generally mechanical work is very straightforward. There are vendors who specialize in early engine parts. Any part can be cast, fabricated or machined. You can have new wood wheels made without a problem. There are also folks who specialize in rewooding antique cars. Best advice I can give you is to contract with a restorer you trust if you can't do the work yourself. It's easy to take a car apart and send a bill. Putting that car back together is much more difficult. Some people think they can save money by contracting out parts of the restoration to different specialists but with an early rare vehicle you need someone to look at the big picture and coordinate the restoration. Best best advice I can give you is this; If a "restorer" gives you a firm price on restoring the entire vehicle you had best turn tail and run. Either he is so inexperienced that he does not understand the impossibility of giving such a firm price or he has priced the job so high that he can't possibly lose money on the deal. My last advice is this; know what you want out of the car. Most people approach a restorer saying that they don't want a show car but only a nice driver but almost universally their expectations change during the course of the restoration and they have that "nice driver but not a show car" registered for a show before the paint is dry. All this being said, if you can afford it, you will find restoring a car, especially a rare one, to be an interesting and rewarding experience.

You reposted while I was writing my post so some of my answers are redundant. Sounds like an interesting project and that you are realistic in your expectations.

I worked at White Post for a couple of years, and you're dead on about the "driver" vs. "show" restoration.

So, for a driver, for example, you'd sandblast the frame but if pitted not worry about it. On a show car, fill in the pits. Invariably, the owner sees the frame and goes "huh??" and wants it filled in.

When professionally restoring a car, there just aren't that many corners you can cut.

If you have time, and can do some of the work yourself, and "network" with other collectors/restorers, things can go well. For example, I have a friend who rebuilds engines as a part-time hobby (but he does great work). His father needed a touring car upholstered. Thus, he got interior and top, and I got a couple of engines rebuilt. Nice deal.....

$2500 for a Peerless touring sounds like a very good price to me. You'll have a valuable car when you're done, so at least some of your costs may be covered!

Phil

BJM, I can see why you are excited about the possibilities of this car, it would be great seeing such a grand old car restored. I saw photos and also photos of another 1925 here on the forum. I hate that we are all so negative but I agree with the others that the cost to restore this car would be huge and it is not exactly complete. If you are concerned now about being a little short on resources I would not think that problem would be any better a few years in. I would love to see that car restored but hope you do not get in too deep, be careful, Todd C

I realize that comments can sound negative, but they're also realistic.

How many cars have you seen, a guy new to the hobby takes apart and gets frustrated at the cost to restore, gets angry, and leaves the hobby?

Have you bought a gallon of red automotive paint lately? $400, $500, $600 per gallon. Chrome prices that make you gasp.

It's a shame, but it's reality, if someone wants first rate restoration.

You have to restore a car for the enjoyment, and only if you have the right car and the right resources will you come out "whole" on the car.

I do get amused, though, at the way people buy new and antique cars. Some people think nothing of buying a $50,000 new car, paying on it for 6 years or so, and it's worth $15,000 by then. But, buy an antique car for $25,000, and find out later it's worth $23,000, oh my gosh, that can't happen...........

If you have fun with an antique car, get it out and drive it and not just let it be a 2 ton paperweight, being with and meeting other enthusiasts, then even if you lose a little money when selling it you're ahead of the game....

If you are willing and able to do a lot of the work then certainly that brings the price way down. Also, not going for the absolute "top" quality will keep the costs down too, but will also affect final value. I think we are all negative from hard experience. However, I could easily see myself falling for it all over again - there is nothing particularly smart about our hobby. If you have been bitten, it is hard to resist.

Ultimately, if you pay 3500, or get it for free, that really shouldn't be part of your decision making process as it will be rounding error in the long run.

BJM, I can see why you are excited about the possibilities of this car, it would be great seeing such a grand old car restored. I saw photos and also photos of another 1925 here on the forum. I hate that we are all so negative but I agree with the others that the cost to restore this car would be huge and it is not exactly complete. If you are concerned now about being a little short on resources I would not think that problem would be any better a few years in. I would love to see that car restored but hope you do not get in too deep, be careful, Todd C

Thanks Todd. I will probably pass but the more I feel there are professionals that can do the motor, transmission etc, the more I may consider it.

The 24/25 Peerless used a new for them aluminum 6 cyliner engine. I can just imagine what this block/head must be like now. The quality of aluminum castings in the 30's was not so good, so I can imagine 1924 aluminum.

And I can imagine every bolt or fastener breaking. The wood actually does not scare me as much but I thin k it is missing a door! So a door needs fabricated from one thatis on the car now.

There is an owner of a V8 25 Peerless Touring, also the only one of those known to exist - but it is a 7 passenger car, all original and I would need to visit it and inspect it closely for this car.

Look at D & D Classic Auto Restoration in Covington, Ohio. They have a web site that shows their work. They can build a car from scratch. They did a great job on my 1930 Chrysler.

Thanks Todd. I will probably pass but the more I feel there are professionals that can do the motor, transmission etc, the more I may consider it.

I know full well there are professionals that can handle that work, the problem is they cannot handle it cheap! The same experts in Classic era cars that can rebuild a Duesenburg or Packard engine could handle a Peerless---for big $$$.

Your concerns about 1920s aluminum castings and other parts are valid too IMO. I am sure the door could be reproduced but, again, hand crafted for big money. That Pullman body was low volume enough that it was likely essentially hand made when new, but that kind of work costs money.

I want to say, though, that I admire your interest in big cars of the teens and 1920s. And I think the real buy is in an older restoration from the 1960s-1970s. A car not nice enough to be a show car but not valuable enough to justify being re-restored is where the bargains are from what I can see. Of course you have been shopping for a while so you likely know this too, keep looking and posting and good luck, Todd C

I'd also say that it's important for you to really LOVE the car, not just think it's a neat old car at a cheap price. At $10,000 in restoration costs to make the car complete and usable, you'll say, "Yeah, this will make a fun old car to drive around." But when you cross, say, $50,000, you're going to say, "What the HELL was I thinking?!?" if it's not a car you're in love with.

Although I'm not knowledgeable about this particular Peerless, I don't think I'm going to be very far out on a limb by saying that you WILL spend far more on the restoration than the car will ever be worth, no matter what level of quality you choose to pursue, even doing much of the work yourself.

A unique car like a Peerless will also be a challenge to restore no matter your experience level. Missing parts will be virtually unobtainable, and there will be extraordinary levels of fabrication required. Contrast this with a Model A for example, where you can practically build one out of a catalog.

Don't be fooled by a low buy-in. As Alsancle says, the purchase price will be lost in the huge pile of money the restoration will cost. It's always, always, always cheaper to buy someone else's finished project than to restore one yourself.

Not to be negative, but this is a hobby about passion and love. If this car doesn't inspire you and really light your desire to see it complete, you're going to lose your way and spend a lot of money trying to get there.

I restored my first vehicle about 1960 and have restored many since then. I have done it for a living and done it for a hobby. Used to be you could do a car such as your are talking about for $20k. Today the paint job, with minimal body work, with cost close to that. The posters are right about the cost today, maybe $200k for a show quality job. It takes skilled craftsmen to work with wood, fabricate the missing parts, etc.

Decide what you want, a driver or a show car. Driver can probably be done for maybe 1/2 of a show quality restoration

Hi My name is Ed Matthis. If you are interested in Peerless autos I have two for sale. They are a 4 door sedan complete and a Boat tailed coupe that the body has been rewooded plus spare parts. If interested contact me at e.jm.67@hotmail.com or 419-524-4258:)

BJM,

I assume you are like the majority of us financially, that is you do not have cubic yards of cash just lying around looking to be spent. Total restoration of a pre-war basket case is obscenely expensive today, even if you can do some the work yourself. Factor in a rare orphan make and the cost and level of difficulty goes up. When I decided to get into prewar cars about 5 years ago I considered the total restoration route but when I did some research into the costs I switched to looking for cars with most of the work already done. I was very lucky to find my Pierce Arrow and Cadillac in nice driver condition for reasonable prices but today there are even better deals to be had! On this forum alone you can find very nice older restorations with all the work done for very low prices almost every week. We can all understand the thrill of bringing a rare car back from the brink of destruction and have great respect for anyone who can do it but if your real desire is to own and drive a prewar car you are better off buying one ready to go - just my $0.02. Good luck!

For what it's worth many people find the PROCESS of restoring a car, locating parts, doing research, fighting with their restorer, hiding invoices from their significant other and hopefully picking up a trophy more enjoyable and certainly more challenging than actually owning and maintaining the vehicle once it is completed. But make no mistake about it, restoration can indeed be brutally expensive.

Restorer,well said.

Interesting to hear you are looking at that Peerless Phaeton, Bryan. Instead of trying to answer any of these many posts---I'll just list some general comments:

.

As you know, this isn't a car that's on everybody's lips and that everyone's trying to get, but a Peerless Pullman Phaeton is a little rarer than a Duesenberg, Cord, or Packard 12. I personally think the car would be really impressive whoever restores it.

The pictures show it missing tires and rims, so it would have a much taller, aggressive stance than the car hunkering down in the grass in the photos. I think it has 21" wheels. I sent Bryan a tobacco card* with a Peerless illustrated on it that's pretty close to what a new one would look like (mis--dated and probably a V-8...but essentially the "same animal", or very close, with what may be correct color).

On a Peerless Forum thread about this car, someone gave the opinion that this isn't so desireable a model, being a 6. To me, that's post-WWII thinking being applied to pre-WWII cars, like the girl I knew who got a '65 Mustang with the 6 but wished she had the 8. Truth be told, there are 2 or 3 dozen Peerless V-8 cars around...but this is the only '24 Peerless with a 6, to the best of my knowledge. In the case of Edsels, Mustangs and '68 Camaros, there's a big difference in HP between the 6 and the 8. In 1924, the Peerless 6 & 8 were the same HP.

----Jeff

* A 1920s original, showing a color drawing of a 1923 or 1924 Peerless Phaeton. These tobacco cards were kind of like baseball cards and came with tobacco products in the 20s/30s.

A Post Script to my last comments.

Wheels: There are shops that'll restore or replace wood wheels.

Re: Loving the car. Matt's comments were good about wanting to have the thing before shovelling money at it. Regrettably, there aren't any restored 6-70's out there to buy.

Re: Year. If this is a 1925 -- it's the only 1925 Peerless 6-70. I'm basing this on 2,786 of these cars built between March, 1924 and March, 1925 and this being No. 411 in the sequence of body plate serial

numbers.

Re: Money pits, sink holes, etc. If you put the money into an in-ground pool, at least you could swim in it!

Re: West's comments about interchangeablity may apply to the electrical parts and possibly the instrument clusters.

Re: Photos. I took a few digital photos 2 days ago. They didn't turn out.

It's scary to think of $3500 "disappearing" in a rounding-off of expenses, but this is not even on the scale in the cheap and easy restoration department.

Here's a bit different take on restoring a car. Friend of mine restored his first car, a '36 Packard 120 Coupe. The car was a real rust bucket needing everything but he persevered and ended up with a beautiful car. Several years after completing and showing the car he decided to sell it, which he did, for $37,000, a very high price for a 120 Coupe. Of course the restoration had cost considerably more than 37K. The following conversation ensued between him and I: Him, "It feels nice to have $37000 in my bank account". Me, "Tell me Brian, if you hadn't restored and sold your car at a loss would you have that $37,000+++ in your account?" Him, "Of course not, I would have blown it on something else". He looked at the restoration as something he threw spare money into, much like a savings account with a negative interest rate. If you would spend the money anyway on vacations, golf, beer, wild women or whatever you might as well spend in on a restoration. At least there you will likely get at least some of your money back and you will have a great deal of fun along the way.

Restorer, your friend has it right. You could easilly rack up thousands over the years with a boat, airplane or other non collectible toy, and use it less. You made some good similar points last fall when we were discussing a very rough Packard 745 - the right person could save that car but probably would not come out ahead in financial terms. But if oyu can afford it, wouldn't be a great experience to do? I never really understood the issue people have with others having a car restored professionally - these people are often just as knowledgeable about their cars as those who do their own work but have chosed not too for a lot of reasons. Personally I would love to have a top notch shop do a car someday, not sure if I could afford it but you never know. Anyway, interesting take on it; I think some cars actually need to be restored professionally, I mean you do the car a disservice to do a less than perfect job if it is a truly rare or important car.

The question now is, did your buddy embark on another restoration?

Like a lot if things in life the journey is more exciting than the destination. Yes, my buddy is still in the hobby but only doing partial restorations now that the kids are in college.

He looked at the restoration as something he threw spare money into, much like a savings account with a negative interest rate. If you would spend the money anyway on vacations, golf, beer, wild women or whatever you might as well spend in on a restoration. At least there you will likely get at least some of your money back and you will have a great deal of fun along the way.

This is probably true for most of us here. I have pointed this out to my wife too that while old cars are almost never a moneymaker at least you have something tangible and the money is not just lost to golf, beer, women, etc. And seeing that car go from "junker to jewel" can be very satisfying. Todd

wise words - I'm working on a personal ad:

"wanted: wild woman who likes to drink beer while restoring old cars"

ah, if only life were so good

Wanted, wild beer drinking woman who owns and enjoys antique cars. Please send picture of cars.

Bryan,

My wife got me a copy of Great Cars of the Great Plains for Christmas, and it says right there that Pullman automobile bodies were only used on Packard and Moon chassis'. So this Peerless is 1 of 0 built, right??

Maybe that means it was something of a prototype or early-production-run car intended to go around to showrooms, auto shows, etc. It would be kind of cool to find out its early owner history(first owner, dealer location, etc). About all we know for sure is that the car had a re-paint in Los Angeles(Wheeler Finish, 20814 SO GRAND AVE., LOS ANGELES, CAL., [Job No. 3017])...and broke down in Square Butte, Montana (maybe) in the 30s.

Bryan,

My wife got me a copy of Great Cars of the Great Plains for Christmas, and it says right there that Pullman automobile bodies were only used on Packard and Moon chassis'. So this Peerless is 1 of 0 built, right??

Maybe that means it was something of a prototype or early-production run car intended to go around to showrooms, auto shows, etc. It would be kind of cool to find out its history.

Or maybe that Great Cars of the Great Plains is wrong?

(I know very little about Packard, Moon or Peerless and nothing of the Great Cars of the Great Plains book. But I do find errors, or at least contradictions that I take to be indicators of errors, in many old car reference books.)

Good point, ply33. I read in a different source that Pullman made auto bodies from 1919-1925, and occasionally built prototype bodies for other companies in small batches.

Hi Jeff, I also have a copy of the "Great Cars of the Great Plains" book and enjoyed it covering stories of more obscure autos. In fact it inspired me to research two local assembled cars of the 1917-22 era.

I would not trust that reference to Pullman bodies as 100% accurate and in fact would say there will never be a 100% authoritative history on many of the lower volume car or (especially) body companies of that era. The excellent website Coachbuilders, Coach Building, Coachbuilt Cars, Coachbuilding History, Encyclopedia of American Coach Builders & Coachwork may be your other source as it states that Pullman built bodies from 1919-25. In the case of this Peerless, I would not read too much significance in an average sort of touring car body. It may be a prototype or a show car, or it may be a body swap, either when new or later on. I would say most likely it is just a dealer or maybe a purchaser ordering the car bodied by Pullman, for some reason. Probably an interesting story unlikely to ever be learned in full. Todd

Bryan,

My wife got me a copy of Great Cars of the Great Plains for Christmas, and it says right there that Pullman automobile bodies were only used on Packard and Moon chassis'. So this Peerless is 1 of 0 built, right??

Maybe that means it was something of a prototype or early-production-run car intended to go around to showrooms, auto shows, etc. It would be kind of cool to find out its early owner history(first owner, dealer location, etc). About all we know for sure is that the car had a re-paint in Los Angeles...and broke down in Square Butte, Montana (maybe) in the 30s.

I am glad you got that book. Kathy must have had a hard time finding it. You should have kept mine!

You know this is such a tough decision. By age 47 I was supposed to have 2-4 restored cars, driving them to local town festivals, but instead I reinvent the wheel every few years. Maybe the hobby is not for me.

So, the idea with the Peerless was instead of owning 5 cars or more, just do one and have fun, win or lose.

Clear out the 3 car garage, use 2 stalls to dismantle and document the Peerless, then, do as much as I can but use professionals when necessary.

And that is the issue, not whether it would cost so much. I do NOT want to get in a pickle where I have the body done but no expert to recast pistons or redo the radiator or whatever. I think I can do the wood but not like a professional.

Hi Jeff, I also have a copy of the "Great Cars of the Great Plains" book and enjoyed it covering stories of more obscure autos. In fact it inspired me to research two local assembled cars of the 1917-22 era.

Todd

Wow I thought I was the only one that had that book because I think the content was simply the authors bachelors thesis put into a binder! I thought parts of it were pretty dry but overall an interesting read.

Some of those cars are no longer with us or at least I doubt if 1, maybe 2 exist in dusty museums anywhere in the world.

Not so with the Moon, but a couple of the others.

Yes, it is pretty obscure information, but if I recall I think my copy actually came from a Barnes and Noble, so they were apparently in real distribution, at least in the midwest. I was mostly interested in Moon since (1) I knew of them and (2) I have been researching two other brands of locally built medium priced assembled cars and thought there may be a parallel story.

Mildly interesting trivia:

If you go to the Six Flags near St Louis their antique car ride labels the cars as Moons.

I THINK the same Luverne company remains in business today making running boards and truck accessories.

Mildly interesting trivia:

If you go to the Six Flags near St Louis their antique car ride labels the cars as Moons.

I THINK the same Luverne company remains in business today making running boards and truck accessories.

Correct on the LuVerne.

Todd,

It was coachbuilt.com where I found a reference to other firms hiring Pullman to make prototype bodies. I read on e-Bay, of all places, that about 1000 Packard Single Sixes had their bodies built by Pullman.

Bryan,

In the event that you go ahead and pursue the 1924 Peerless, I mailed you a letter today full of what I think will be helpful info:

• electrical system parts numbers (thanks to Don Bettes)
  
• excerpts from the antique auto restoration classes I took in Canada (we were discussing to sandblast or not to sandblast)
  
• a list of what parts of the car need to be looked at
  
• a somewhat more cheery list of what's right with the car....or what I think is right with the car
  
• the usual sketches & photos I send in my illustrated letters
  

I agree with you that old cars are not about the money. If you are able to do this successfully, think how much you'll learn! I've never seen your shop, so don't know how many cars there are room for.

The fellow who is restoring a 1923 Packard in Australia in the Our Cars & Restorations Projects section, "oldcars", could be an inspiration. He does world-class work and doesn't get everything done by farming it out...he does most of it himself. He did send out to have a radiator and aluminum pistons made...and discussed how he needed a stone-guard for his radiator because of the major expense of the repro radiator he chose. I mention him because the two motorcars are very similar mechanically. The Packard is a Single Six, which I suspect was the type of car Peerless had in mind when they came up with the Model Six-70. The instrument panels are uncannily alike, except that the Ignition Switch and Oil/Ammeter clusters are reversed.

----Jeff