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Overdrive or new rear end gears?


Guest dougklink

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Guest dougklink

Now that my '36 12 sedan is on the road, it's become clear that it really isn't geared for touring at much over 60 mph. 55 seems more comfortable and even then it seems to be wound up.

I've heard guys talk about overdrives and taller read end gears as possible solutions. Supposedly someone out there makes a taller gear set for 12's. I've also read posts about R9 through r11 overdrives. Anyone care to share pros and cons or personal experiences and preferences for the options?

Thanks!

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I've recently spent quite a bit of time in a '38 Super 8 convertible sedan equipped with an overdrive installed by Lloyd Young of Columbus, and a '29 633, also with an overdrive, and I am 100% convinced it is the smart ticket for a touring car. It's completely transparent in operation--get up to about 25 MPH in top gear, lift slightly, push a button, and it kicks into gear. The '29 cruises happily at 55-60 now, and the '38 will run 70-75 all day without breaking a sweat.

On the other hand, it's a very visible modification, so I don't recommend it for show cars, but if your interest is driving, enjoying, and touring your Packard, I think it's a superior solution compared to high-speed gears (which don't drop RPM as low as the overdrive and reduce low-speed acceleration). I would not hesitate to install such a system in my own car.

The only advantage gears offer is maybe a reduced cost, but I think Lloyd is doing the overdrives for ~$1500 plus installation (if you want him to do it). I believe the owner of the '29 633 said it cost him less than $3000 total and took Lloyd about a week to do the work. I'd move quickly though--Lloyd is about 90 years young!

Hope this helps.

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The Twelves take very nicely to higher-speed rear end gears, can't necessarily say the same for the 37 and up Super Eights and the earlier Eights (320 engine) expecially with the heavier body styles where OD might be a more flexible option. Phil Bray is the source for the senior Packard rear end gear sets.

Edited by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)
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Guest dougklink

I take it the R9 is not quite up to the task in a 12, the R 10 or R11 are? And they bolt up to the back of the tranny, then you just get the driveshaft shortened?

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I have a friend with a 25 Senior touring car with an overdrive unit installed - kind of a "cage" in front of the differential. He has driven the car over 7,000 miles on this setup and would tell you (or anybody) that you'd be crazy not to install an overdrive setup for touring on todays modern roads and modern speeds. If you are frightened by the welding required on your rear, I just got a 33-36 V12 rear end, drum to drum, that is about to hit the market. I don't need/want it and its taking up space.

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I hve wrestled with this for a couple of years with my 32 Deluxe 8. My thoughts is the car is fine crusing at 50-55. Why do i want to go faster especially considering I have mechanical brakes?

Regarding the high speed gears, the only ones I have found are 4.06s from Phil Bray for $1500 which for me will mean only a 10% reduction which to me isn't worth it. Every once in a while you find some 3.56s floating around, but they won't fit a 32 but 33 and later. The 3.56s be perfect for my 32 as I have a granny gear if I'm parked on a hill.

All of the overdrives I have heard about cost in the $5000 range installed. What OD is Lloyd using for $1500? I have heard mechnaical Mitchell ODs being used that were in that range, but would require an addition lever that would be obvious in the seating area.

Not sure why OD is not appropiate for show cars. Are the OD's deducted as they should not be readily seen unless you crawl under a car.Aslo with the push button that you described, sounds like the button could be hidden under the dash.

I have heard some stories that both HS speed gears and overdrives are noiser though that may be due to improper installation.

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Guest Silverghost

Hi speed rear end gears should not make any more noise than the standard original gear sets.

If they make any noise they are not installed properly & gear back-lash not set-up correctly !

Some overdrive units do indeed make more noise.

But not ALL of them~

Beware~

The Gear Vendors modern aftermarket overdrive units sold today are easily damaged if you forget to dis-engage the overdrive unit before putting the car into reverse !

These aftermarket units also stick-out like sore thumbs at car shows & Concours events.

They look just too modern and out of place under the car for my taste ~~~

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)
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Beware~

The Gear Vendors aftermarket overdrive units are easily damaged if you forget to dis-engage the overdrive unit before putting the car into reverse !

I think most add-on overdrive units are vulnerable in reverse for some reason. I'm not sure what kind of overdrive the '38 has, but the '29 has an R11 unit. They both have a push-pull knob that I presume actuates a cable lock-out to protect the overdrive when going into reverse. I don't know if it locks out reverse or how it works precisely, but that was definitely an issue that was addressed during the installation.

Here's a photo of the panel Lloyd Young fabricated for the '29 633:

1929packard37.jpg

The toggle switch turns the overdrive on (red light comes on), then you push the knob in (which is the driving position, pull it out to use reverse or when parked), then push the white button to engage the overdrive, lift off the throttle slightly when above 25 MPH, and it kicks into overdrive (blue light comes on).

I'm sure this whole panel could be better hidden from view, but I don't think I've seen an add-on installation of an overdrive unit in any old car that didn't have some kind of additional lever or knob (except those that came with overdrive originally). I recall a 1929 Lincoln L sedan where I used to work that had the knob sticking up behind the shifter, although I don't remember what kind of overdrive that one used.

I can detect no additional noise from the overdrive unit in either car, and they're actually quieter at speed due to lower engine RPM. For me, the issue isn't necessarily being able to go faster and "keep up with traffic," but to reduce engine RPM at cruising speed. These long-stroke engines weren't designed for sustained high-RPM use, and anything I can do to improve longevity is a good idea. As I said, the overdrive works at speeds over 25 MPH, and with all the torque these engines make, the cars remain tractable in traffic. I certainly wouldn't drive the '29 faster than about 60 MPH even with the OD, but dropping RPM from, say, 3500 to 2600-2700 RPM at those speeds, I think that's probably a great durability improvement.

I'm angling to put myself in a large Full Classic (not a Packard, alas) in the next few weeks, and a Lloyd Young overdrive is first in line in terms of work I'll be doing when/if it happens. I'm sold on the system.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Matt,

I haven't checked to see what my rear end ratio is on my 32 coupe roaster, but at 55 worse case it would be 2625 rpms while if it has the typical lower rear end ratio for an open car, the rpms would be 2442. At these rpms, I don't see the need for OD or HS gears if I keep the car at 55.

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Guest 39Super8
Now that my '36 12 sedan is on the road, it's become clear that it really isn't geared for touring at much over 60 mph. 55 seems more comfortable and even then it seems to be wound up.

I've heard guys talk about overdrives and taller read end gears as possible solutions. Supposedly someone out there makes a taller gear set for 12's. I've also read posts about R9 through r11 overdrives. Anyone care to share pros and cons or personal experiences and preferences for the options?

Thanks!

Rear end gears or overdrive? Well, in my case… both. Here in the southwest we have many empty miles of 75mph interstate highway. My car has the old 320 with the modernized all steel body. A fairly light package with overall good power to weight ratio. With 4.36:1 gears and no overdrive, the car was happy cruising at about 45 – 50 mph. Granted it could be pushed farther, I am very conservative and like to run these old engines in their sweet spot. With the addition of overdrive, the car now cruises along happily at 60ish mph. This in my opinion, is a vast improvement for my driving needs in the driving conditions of the Southwest. The engine easily pulls the overall gearing in high gear overdrive, in fact, I find myself wishing I could make one more shift. Going from 4.36 to 3.92:1 gears will solve this. Some will tell you there is no need for OD, and in their individual driving environment, that might well be the case, but I can tell you, if I had the torque and horsepower of that fantastic V-12 at my disposal, with such good power to weight ratio, I would gear it to the moon! It makes for such a relaxed and enjoyable mode of touring.

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You can add a reverse lockout switch to the overdrive later R-9 in addition to the lock cable switch. it was triple redundant system. a true later model R-9 use a overdrive transmission withe a reverse lockout pin internally the primary transmission that pushed into the overdrive unit to block the engagement as well. I not sure on the R-11.

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I put an R11 in my 38 jr coupe (282 motor) and at 2500 RPM I do 66 MPH. I do find that running my car at speeds over 60 I do have to really pay attention to my driving. It's a bit more work than driving a modern car. As a side note I bought my R11 from Ebay and it cost $250 shipped. Another $100 to have my driveshaft modified and about $25 for a cable. I did all the work (except the driveshaft) myself. I used an under dash toggle switch for my electricals. The R11 I have does have a internal reverse lockout pin.

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I have two cars with Lloyd Young Borg Warner Overdrive units, viz.: a 1933 Packard Super Eight Convertible Sedan (145PH & 4,930 Lbs.) coupled to a standard 4.41:1 rearend and a 1932 Cadillac V-8 All Weather Phaeton (115HP & 5,070 Lbs.) with a 4.60:1 rearend. Also in my garage is a 1933 Packard Twelve Convertible Sedan with a Phil Bray 4.06:1 rearend without overdrive. I have driven each vehicle at least 6,000 miles and up to 18,000 miles.

The 1932 Cadillac needs the O/D the most as it has the least favorable weight to power ratio. It can now cruise at any reasonable speed desired without having to listen to the engine buzzing down the street. The 1934 Packard loafs along at 50, 60 or whatever speed you desire. Also, it can accelerate much quicker in O/D than the Cadillac. These two Full Classics I use for serious touring in excess of 1,000 miles at a time. The 1933 Packard can cruise at reasonable speeds without O/D and loses little, if any, acceleration with the slight numerical decrease in its rearend.

As far as the O/D self destructing in reverse if not locked out, it can only be forced to self destruct if you ignore the vehicle's reluctance to move in reverse when the O/D is engaged.

As to concours shows. I have never lost points because of an O/D. There are two reasons for this. First, the O/D in both cars is tastefully installed so that it looks as if it belongs and second, the judges don't realize that it doesn't belong to the car.

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Guest RenegadeV8

It's not clear to me why an overdrive would sustain any damage when reverse is engaged and the OD is engaged too.

Backing off of the gas pedal real fast at say 60 mph should place enormously more load and forces on the OD than what any usual, normal, and customary reverse operation could ever create.

What am i missing here???

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Dave Fields: It was kind of you to ask. Yes, the family is fine and well and so are the cars. I hope you and your family are the same.

Doug Klink: Lloyd Young's contact information: 4915 Lithopolis-Winchester Road, Canal Winchester, OH 43110. 614-837-7832. Lloyd likes to talk. Be patient, listen and he will further your education as to Borg Warner R-10 overdrive units. Incidentally, if you have a problem with your unit, he is more than reasonable about warrantying his work.

I'm going to the garage and taking the 1934 Packard Super Eight Convertible Sedan with top down for a 20 mile spin with the Overdrive engaged for most the the trip. The weather man predicts a high of 79 degrees and sunny. See you later.

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Guest dougklink

Thanks Ed. I actually found his contact info on a site yesterday and called him. It was a nice long chat. Really great guy with lots of info. I've decided to buy one of the R10's from him and install it myself. He just needs the yoke, nut, and plate off the diff and it'll be a bolt in when I get it. I'll have a new drifveshaft made and save the old one so it'll be 100% reversible. I'm going to hide the controls so the car will look stock. If anyone has found nifty ways to hide the controls I'd be interested. Thought about using the ride control knob since it doesn't seem to do much, and hiding the switches in the glove box. Thoughts?

Oh, and I just got done plowing snow and it's 3F here at 8000' so no Packard drives today! I'm jealous.

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Guest dougklink

I don't have much road time in it yet and it is entirely possible they need service, so if it does make a substantial difference in the ride perhaps I'll come up with a different plan for the knob.

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Thanks Ed. I actually found his contact info on a site yesterday and called him. It was a nice long chat. Really great guy with lots of info. I've decided to buy one of the R10's from him and install it myself. He just needs the yoke, nut, and plate off the diff and it'll be a bolt in when I get it. I'll have a new drifveshaft made and save the old one so it'll be 100% reversible. I'm going to hide the controls so the car will look stock. If anyone has found nifty ways to hide the controls I'd be interested. Thought about using the ride control knob since it doesn't seem to do much, and hiding the switches in the glove box. Thoughts?

Oh, and I just got done plowing snow and it's 3F here at 8000' so no Packard drives today! I'm jealous.

What was the cost of the OD?

What controls are needed?

I assume you need to fabricate a bracket of the OD?

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Guest dougklink

Looks like the cost without installation ins about $1900 plus shipping. That includes modifying your parts so it bolts up to the front of the differential as well as, I think, the control setup but I need to ask him that again. See post #11 for a photo and explanation of the controls.

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Ten years ago the cost was $1,100. Five years ago it cost $1,300. In both cases the driveshaft (Packard) or torque tube (Cadillac) was sent to Lloyd for installation. Upon receipt it was a fairly straight forward bolt on proposition. I no longer have the time to work on my cars. My mechanic did the work. Rather than use the rather crude controls Lloyd provides, attached is a picture of what I used in its place. If you would like a picture of the overdrive controls send me your email address. The pictures is too large to post.

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  • 3 months later...

As a follow-up to this, I just returned from a visit with Lloyd Young this afternoon and dropped off the torque tube and drive shaft for my '29 Cadillac (read about it here: http://forums.aaca.org/f169/ok-i-cant-put-off-any-302188.html) to have an overdrive installed.

Lloyd uses Borg-Warner units that were OEM on virtually every car in the late '40s through the '60s. The housings were different, but the guts were all identical. He rebuilds them and casts his own mating flanges that allow them to be custom tailored to any application (and the quality of the castings was impressive). He also supplies a solenoid, wiring, switches, and the panel. I should note that the panel I pictured earlier in this thread was NOT made by Lloyd--the one he supplies is much cleaner and fits on the steering column with just a light and a button, and he paints it black.

The knob and lockout, which was the subject of some guesswork on my part, actually controls the Borg-Warner overdrive unit's Free Wheeling feature. I'm not terribly familiar with it, but it decouples the engine from the rear axle when not under load. It isn't a reverse lock-out per se, but using reverse without this Free Wheeling feature engaged will damage the overdrive. I'm still not 100% certain of how it is used and when to apply it (it's more complicated than just a reverse lock-out), but I'm sure that's just an experience thing that I'll figure out once I have the car on the road. The knob can be located anywhere in the car, and I plan to install mine at the base of the front seat where it will be mostly out of sight, rather than under the dash.

Pricing is $1850 for the overdrive and everything needed to install it, plus his labor to actually fit it to the torque tube (to be determined). I'm figuring that I'll have $3000 in it by the time it's all said and done. I think it's worth it considering that I plan to drive the car everywhere I go.

Also, I have to say that Lloyd is about the nicest guy I've ever met. He spent a lot of time with me, showed me his extremely impressive collection, and was eager to share his vast knowledge, particularly of the overdrives. His workmanship is impressive, and his dedication to customer satisfaction can't be beat. If there's ever a problem with the overdrive, he'll fix it, no questions asked, and he'll walk me through the wiring and installation of the controls if I need help. Who can ask for more?

I'll report back once the overdrive is working, but my Cadillac has 4.75 gears, 32.5 inch tall tires, and the overdrive is 30%, so I figure that at 60 MPH, it will be turning right about 2000 RPM. That makes me very happy.

Hope this helps. If you're considering an overdrive, Lloyd is a wonderful resource.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Guest dougklink

Well I bought one from Lloyd too. Sounds like it'll be a good choice. I'm stopping by his place in 2 weeks. Thanks for the feedback!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Picked up my overdrive from Lloyd yesterday. The workmanship is very nice, the welds between the original torque tube and new collars were tidy, and it turns smoothly. I'm not expecting any problems. We'll find out next week after we have the car back together. Here are some photos:

Before:

5552-dscn3795.jpg

After:

5554-dscn3804.jpg

5556-dscn3807.jpg

5555-dscn3806.jpg

Note that the silver solenoid will face the side, not the top, once it's installed, so there are no clearance issues with the floor. He installed it in the middle of the torque tube instead of on the flange for the rear end due to the brackets for the trailing arms that are located just behind the overdrive's current location. If you have an open drive shaft, installation is a DIY job. Lloyd's design also permits the overdrive and/or transmission to be removed without removing the rear end or the rest of the torque tube.

Price was about $2300 including the installation on the torque tube. I'll get it reinstalled in the car and do the wiring myself next week. The switch panel is just a push-button and a light that tells you overdrive is engaged, and a microswitch on the clutch that disengages the overdrive solenoid. The pull knob controls the freewheeling feature, and is not a reverse lockout (if you forget to pull it out in reverse, the car simply won't move because it doesn't engage in reverse, but won't damage the overdrive). The only thing that can possibly damage the overdrive is using it in, say, first gear under maximum acceleration. That solution is simple--don't push the button until you're in high gear and going 25 MPH, and you can't do it accidentally because pushing in the clutch disengages the overdrive.

Lloyd supplies everything you need, from all the wiring, solenoids, switches, and even oil. He painted the whole assembly for me, which is fine, although I wouldn't have personally chosen gloss black. Meh.

His warranty is simple: "If it breaks, send it back, I'll fix it unless you get drunk on New Year's and do something stupid." He's a great guy, and his collection is amazing.

I can't wait to try it out!

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Guest Packardman

I have a couple of 3.58 gearsets for 30's Packards that were made by Hill and Vaughn. I would sell one set. These are new, never installed. This will give a 19% increase in speed if you have the 4.41 ratio which is quite common for your car. I'm new to this forum so I am not sure if it is appropriate to give my phone number. If interested advise me.

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Guest Packardman

I know they will fit a 37 twelve and probably 32-39 twelves but I can't say for sure. I want $2000 for them which is just what I paid some time ago.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest thebigdaddyo

Hello all! I have read this thread with great interest. I have a 1941 Buick Special and would like to install an overdrive of some-kind. While I have the ability to put in a 200r GM trans, I would love to keep it stick with such an over-drive as noted here. Can anyone provide the contact info for Loyd Young? Any help is greatly appreciated.

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Hello all! I have read this thread with great interest. I have a 1941 Buick Special and would like to install an overdrive of some-kind. While I have the ability to put in a 200r GM trans, I would love to keep it stick with such an over-drive as noted here. Can anyone provide the contact info for Loyd Young? Any help is greatly appreciated.

This thread gives a phone number: http://forums.aaca.org/f169/overdrive-242486.html

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Guest dougklink

He's in Canal Winchester, Ohio. I don't have his number handy but Google his name and I think you'll find it.

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Guest thebigdaddyo

Thank you for the info.

As to the 700r gm, no, I was thinking of the GM 200r4, which is a smaller case and easier to fit into older models. I am currently installing one in my 1950 Ford business coupe and have another waiting for my 1953 Studebaker coupe. They also have better gearing splits than a 700. But both of them are more customs and my 1941 Buick is all original 65,000 car, so I am not keen on modern mods.

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I read this through thread out of general interest. I do not own a Packard or any other big Classic but I have driven a 733 phaeton here in NZ and that is fitted with an overdrive unit. I don't know what it is - it was fitted many years ago - but I suspect it is something agricultural as it is noticably noisy. For the short time I drove the car I did notice how well the car cruised at around 55-60mph. The owner's 1918 Twin Six is actually a quicker car - I suspect it has a better power to weight ratio - or maybe he just like to drive it faster.

Re high speed gears I read an article some years ago written by Jay Leno where he commented about getting some made for his 1932 (?) V12.

The point of my post is to ask something I have not seen mentioned. Has anyone taken any notice of (or even documented) whether there has been an improvement in gas mileage with the various changed ratios? I am sure that even a 10% improvement would make a difference for touring with todays gas prices. Just curious.

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