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How to do a frame on restoration?


1957buickjim

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Congrats Old Bessie, you was lookin just as purdy as the day you came off the showroom floor. Sorry I didn't get to spend more time with you and Bob but, just too many people, too little time. The car looked great and just goes to show that frame ons can indeed win a Senior.

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Congrats Old Bessie, you was lookin just as purdy as the day you came off the showroom floor. Sorry I didn't get to spend more time with you and Bob but, just too many people, too little time. The car looked great and just goes to show that frame ons can indeed win a Senior.

Ahem, that's DRIVEN Gold/Senior Award...

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Thanks everybody for the remarks. It was great to meet all of you in person finally! Bob and I are looking forward to going to South Bend next year...I won't need the extra motor and transmission that it seems I took with me to Charlotte. My brother and I truly enjoyed getting to know all of you and spending time with you guys. It was great fun. The forum breakfast was a blast..Nothing wrong with beer in a SPAM cup, I say! Heck, I might even have my brother converted from Mopar to Buicks in a couple of years..You never know!

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Guest 56BuickSuper

What is the difference between a DRIVEN Gold/Senior and a Gold/Senior aside from the obvious? Are the standards different for one or the other?

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Ben,

I totally forgot to ask the story about Mt. Rushmore..save it for South Bend! Thanks for the kind words. It was a pleasure to meet you in Concord! Looking forward to seeing you in Indiana next year.

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Guest Rob McDonald

MIKE, what's that about Portland? Do you mean Portland, Oregon, the City of Wetness and the All-Buick Meet on August 18? That annual show's been going on for a very long time and I've always meant to give it a try. There's a terrific swap meet there every April and it's my favourite US city to visit. I can only imagine how nice Portland must be in August, when it's not pouring rain.

My Buick will not be ready to roll this summer (or maybe any summer). However, my MG is way overdue for another 3000 mile road trip. Could my aging back take that, though? Hmm...

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Guest Rob McDonald

I'll admit that I was surprised at your ambitiousness. I figured maybe, with all the work you're pulling in, you'd hired someone to finish your car. So, we're still talking Portland in Oregon, right? Apparently, there are Portlands in just about every state of the Union, including several that are landlocked. If that's the place for BCA 2014, I'll definitely make some plans around that.

Who knows, this could be just the deadline that my lonely old car needs to get me to finish it. I've already got the Frame-On workflow laid out for me, starting right here on page 1 of Jim's remarkable thread, complete with fairy tale ending.

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Guest 4 bufords

jim,when you took the doors off bessie,did you leave the hinges on the car or on the door? did you put braces in the door opening? i need to take the doors off the right side to get the dents out along the door bottom.thanks for any input,4 bufords from ct

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Don,

I left the hinges on the car. Before I took the doors off, I drilled a hole through each hinge into the door that I could fit a #6 finishing nail in. Put the nail in and then removed two out of the three bolts that hold the doors to the hinge. Get a helper and then remove the lower bolt, with the helper holding the door. Then remove the upper bolt and the nails and take the door off. I would suggest that you remove as much of the trim (in and out) and glass if you can before you take the door off. It will make the door weigh a lot less and easier to work with. See the attached thumbnail photo and look at the hinges. You will see the holes that I drilled for the alignment nails. I have 1 on the top and 2 on the bottom.

When you have the work done on the door and you go to reinstall it, use the nails to get the door to hinge alignment set, then put the bolts in. That way, your doors will be extremely close to the same fit as when you took them off and easier to adjust, if you need to. Good luck!

post-65800-143139088078_thumb.jpg

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So.... perhaps you can shed some light and tell us how the car ran on the various different state unleaded fuels U encountered? Was there a noticeable difference from corn-a-hol to real unleaded gas, starting, acceleration from stop/idle and so forth. The brass needs to debrief you while the mission is still fresh in your mind.

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Guest 4 bufords

jim,thanks for the info,not able to do much with knee and the heat (94 and humid) stayin in with two acs cranking,electric meter turning warp speed,4 bufords from ct

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Fuel Report:

Started with premium unleaded 10% or less ethanol. Ran pretty well, but the first time out on a trip over 30 miles in 16 years, so the car needed to get used to running. Got to a station where they had no ethanol recreational vehicle fuel, in Northern Michigan and filled up twice on that to give the car some 90 octane real gas. Ran extremely well on that for 130 miles when I needed to fill up (Fuel Gauge was working intermittently). From this point on, used pump gas, with some levels of ethanol. Filled up at Sunoco, 93 Octane premium, and even though the temps were high, the car ran very well. Used the electric fuel pump as a booster to the engine mounted, which helped well after the car was heated up from driving. Continued using Sunoco through Ohio, then switched to BP Premium. Ran well however, got some questionable fuel at a Marathon station in southern Ohio, and it seems the fuel and the fuel bowl caused some issues with vapor lock in some critical areas when climbing the mountains in WV. Had to stop in Charleston because the problem was so severe. So I took your advice and switched to the single line, no glass filter bowl. The car now ran well, but needed the electric pump for boost up the hilly terrain. Climbed through 3552 vertical feet, then rolling mountain terrain into Concord NC. All the Real Gas stations on the list were too far off the beaten path to make it worthwhile to go to for a fill up. It seemed that the BP / Sunoco approach to gas worked well. I used premium the whole way there and back, and I think that the gas may have had less than the 10% ethanol in it, but the car ran well, considering the extreme heat conditions as well. The temps on the way down and back were anywhere from 98 to 107 degrees.

The overall action report for the trip and fuel comsumption is:

1.The glass fuel filter was a bust..location over heat and fuel volatility caused some fuel boiling / vapor lock issues. Changing that to a straight line from the pump to the carb fixed that.

2. Having the electric fuel pump as a booster pump really helped in a hot start condition and through the heavy load through the mountains.

3. Being loaded down with 400 lbs of spare parts and tools etc. did not help things, especially in the heat.

4. Premium (93 Octane) and being consistent on fuel companies (BP / Sunoco) maintained quality fuel that worked in the car with minimal issues.

5. Ave. MPG for the 1864 mile trip - 16.3.

That's the report commander.

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Guest Rob McDonald

JIM, 16.3 mpg is 1.3 better than Uncle Tom McCahill recorded for Popular Mechanix on a high speed flight from New Jersey to Florida, in late winter 1957. His ride was a Roadmaster but it wasn't burdened with 400 lbs of spare parts. Despite your driveability problems caused by modern fuel, you should be very proud of Old Bessie and the great work you put into helping her run as good as new.

What about some of the other challenges of such a long, hot drive in a fine car from another time? How did the seats - and your back - hold up? Did you sometimes wish you had radial tires or better brakes? Would you ever again venture into 100 degree, 100% humidity territory without air conditioning?

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Thanks, duty report noted.

Jim, don't believe the extra weight made much bearing performance going up a hill in a Buick. My Dad would pack all 7 of us in his various Buicks he had as I grew up and my Uncles and Aunts Mercury's Ford's and Dodge's always had trouble keeping up with him on family outing road and fishing trips. Now if you had been driving a stock tummy button Ford or Chevy of the same vintage, then yes. Our high torque engines were made for this kinda haul. I remember driving my 1957 Buick Caballero back and forth between the University of Wisconsin and Sioux Falls back in the early to mid seventies with no problems at all. But I was running premium leaded all the time. It's sweet spot if I remember right was around 65 miles an hour. That's the spot when you are cruising along for hours on end and occasionally happen to look at your speedo while going that constant speed one does while trucking down the highway. Always seem to wanna peg around that number.

So I believe the power was not there due to the modern mix of fuels and our Buick's innate inability to adjust for advance curve and detonation like is done in modern computer controlled/injection systems with the ability to control MAP, spark and advance. BTW: Just having the ability to inject into a intake does not cure the power curve slag you encountered. With the highly volatile real gas of the past, the energy was there in the combustion chamber without the need to correct for spark curve advance on the fly.

A minor after thought, you could have taken out your timing light and advanced the timing about 4 degrees when hitting the mountains, this may have helped the power ban in assisting your mechanical advance on the distributor to some degree.

We are breathlessly awaiting for the 10 segment Buick Club video of your complete trip. Please let us know when the editing is done so we can have some vague idea when it will be ready so I can stock up on popcorn and cool refreshments.

Oh .... one last thing. In your restoration, I seem to remember you installed the sound deadening pad in the doors, under your carpet along with a new insulated firewall pad. Did you honestly notice any real difference with these products or were the usual annoying noise makers innate to the overall basic construction of the car still there?

Edited by buick man (see edit history)
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Well guys, as for the creature comforts of such along ride in a back in time vehicle, here are some noted items:

1. There is a reason for the ventilator window. They really helped move the air at 65mph (which, David - you are correct that is the sweet spot for cruising on the highway).

2. I would have liked more rearward adjust ability in the seat. I am 6'1" and have long legs. Another 2 -3" rearward would have been more comfortable.

3. Seats and cushions were fine. No issues with back, rearend, or lumbar soreness from a 8 - 12 hour road trip. We did stop every 2 hrs for gas and to let her cool down for about 30 min. at the gas stations and we would stretch.

4. No AC was fine. I would do it again in Old Bessie.

5. Bias Ply tires take some getting used to. There is definitely a "wander" to them on the pavement, more noticeable on rough / beat up roads than the highway.

6. Brakes worked fine. Again, you have to adjust to a longer stopping distance and slowing down further back than today's disc brakes.

7. I did think about the timing issue, but did not take a timing light and was not having any running on / dieseling or hard starting issues. We did up the idle speed to somewhat compensate for the issue for the return trip home. Did not have any real issues on the way back with the power. Was going up 7% grades at speeds of 55 - 60 mph.

8. The load on the way down was basically all situated in the far rear of the trunk, lowering the rear end of the car 3 - 4". We adjusted the load out for the return trip back and that did make a difference.

9. The noise abatement treatment, when the windows were closed, was noticeable. However, in the extreme heat, it was not very prudent to have the windows closed when driving.

10. Heck Ya! I would do this again in Old Bessie in a heartbeat. She loves the open highways baby!!

The 10 Segment -"Buick to the Future" video will be coming soon to theatres near you. Stay tuned and stay cool!!

Edited by 1957buickjim (see edit history)
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Guest Rob McDonald

Ah, yes, vent windows. I'd forgotten how valuable they are on a long, hot highway. When I drove my '56 Coronet home from Portland OR in 1982, I discovered the value of not just two, but four, quarter window ventilators. With those and the under-dash vents wide open, I cruised comfortably through the high, dry grassland of central Washington state. Minimal wind noise and no mussing of my brush cut.

I think is was GM, in 1969, who first did away with vent windows, bragging instead about their new Astro-Ventilation. It was just a scheme to make us all order air conditioning, i'm convinced. Hey, it worked.

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Jim: Ok what a nice read-out. Just wanted to embrace some of the experiences on the road with The Man.

You know one can lengthen the base seat track rails real easy on cars by just replacing the bottom track. They have been doing that for decades out there for the real daddy long legged Texans & basket ball players. To do this on the cheap, just take yours out as a keeper to put back in whenever, and then go get two tracks for each side and have them butt welded together, then cut off to desired length and reinstall the end stops. Now you can have up to 6 inches of back crawl space for a real stretch ride.

You know it's kinda funny but I don't ever remember having any problems with seats, lights, steering wheel angle, brakes, etc. - etc., they were just what they were, until that is, I started driving more modern european rides, starting around the mid 90's or so as up to then, I had always drove older cars, usually beaters, going all the way back from since I started driving as a kid.

But getting back into these older rides is an adjustment to be sure. But then again, that is part of the overall experience. It is unique and timeless and for those in 1957 it was the Future.

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David,

Thanks for the tech tip on the seat tracks. The ride was fine and the real only issue was the angle of my knee and keeping it on the accelerator pedal, but that eventually went away, once my knee became accustomed to it. Otherwise, I was suprised at how comfortable the car was for a long road trip. As you mentioned, the one thing that was nice is the simplicity of the vehicle in regards to lights, radio, etc. It is you and the car and the road, which is very refreshing after driving todays wiz bang techno rides.

It was kinda like driving my big comfy couch. Plenty of room, fairly soft ride, and a comfortable old school feeling to it. Everybody should try that sometime. Might eliminate a bunch of road ragers, perhaps... :)

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  • 5 years later...

I am so happy to find this frame on restoration forum. Your comments seem to be honest and most helpful. I have a 1956 Fiesta red Ford Thunderbird that I want to do a frame on restoration. I plan to start about mid May of this year. I will start by removing the engine and transmission. This will open up the engine bay as I want to paint back to new again. There is a dustless blaster company about 20 mile from me that I plan to have them remove the paint from the body, hood & trunk. They charge $700 for the 2 hour or less process. This will save a lot of time and they have plenty of experience so as not to warp the metal. I plan to have the car on a lift while cleaning the underneath. There have been several small oil leaks that have covered the complete underneath and overall, the underneath looks good. It just needs cleaned and painted. I will remove the exhaust and gas tank so I have better view of the frame for cleaning. I will spray the frame with KBS Klean, then OSPHO to etch the frame, then apply KBS primer, then KBS paint. The motor and transmission will be painted while it is out. There are 28,000 miles on the car and I plan to have a compression check done to see if an overhaul is in order. The car runs and shifts well. I will keep the body with Fiesta red when painted. Although the seats are in good condition I would like to reupholster the interior with leather although I know this was not OEM. I will make a decision on this later. Any thoughts from you will be appreciated. A picture is posted for you to see the car. My email address is phillips.larryc@gmail.com. This is just in case you have comments that you do not want posted on the forum. I live in Georgia and my first name is Larry.

1956 Ford Thunderbird In Front of Garage in Drive Way - 11-2-2017.jpg

Edited by 1956 Ford Thunderbird (see edit history)
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Looks like a very nice car Larry! :)

Hope this is taken as constructive and not critical but you might want to go up to the "Our Cars and Restoration Projects" and start a thread about what you are planning on doing (not that your car is a project). 

 

You are in the Buick Club Forums and I'm sure Jim appreciates your comments and efforts on your car but you might find a greater following in the AACA following of your T Bird.

Again no meaning to aim at shoving you out, just a suggestion that I think you will find satisfaction in gathering a following as this attracts more Buick guys here. 

I look through there a lot and will look for you. 

Again beautiful car!

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Hi Larry, 

 

What a cool car! Sounds like you  have a good start on things for sure! Don't worry about dei ( Doug).He is a great guy and I know him personally and he is an avid car guy with many makes. He is just letting you know that you are on a Buick forum with mostly (ok 99%) Buick owners, not so much T-birds. But however, if you want to know more about a frame on restoration, I am more than happy to provide you any guidance I can. You can email me at 1957buickjim@gmail.com. 

 

Hopefully, I can help you with your quest, and if not, point you in the right direction. I have often though about doing a T-Bird (1956/57) so I would be more than happy to help you. Let me know. 

 

Jim

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Dei & Jim, wow, I sure did not know I was on a Buick Forum and many thanks for letting me know. I appreciate it very much. Although the T-Bird from a distance looks good it needs some minor body work and a new paint job due to much faded paint. Some re-chroming of some of the smaller parts are needed also. 

 

Jim - I will follow your advice and get onto the right site. Thanks for your email address, no doubt I may need your help from time to time. 

Dei - I believe I understand you live in Canada. My T-Bird came out of Port Colborne, Ontario. I was amazed coming from the cold, snow, ice, etc., that the frame is in good shape. I know the owner I purchased the car from generally placed the car in his garage in October and did not bring it out until April. The oil leaks that covered the frame helped a lot also keeping the rust away. So small oil leaks are not always a bad thing as we generally think they are.

 

Again, my thanks to both of you for getting me on the right path. 

Larry

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12 hours ago, 1956 Ford Thunderbird said:

I am so happy to find this frame on restoration forum. Your comments seem to be honest and most helpful. I have a 1956 Fiesta red Ford Thunderbird that I want to do a frame on restoration. I plan to start about mid May of this year. I will start by removing the engine and transmission. This will open up the engine bay as I want to paint back to new again. There is a dustless blaster company about 20 mile from me that I plan to have them remove the paint from the body, hood & trunk. They charge $700 for the 2 hour or less process. This will save a lot of time and they have plenty of experience so as not to warp the metal. I plan to have the car on a lift while cleaning the underneath. There have been several small oil leaks that have covered the complete underneath and overall, the underneath looks good. It just needs cleaned and painted. I will remove the exhaust and gas tank so I have better view of the frame for cleaning. I will spray the frame with KBS Klean, then OSPHO to etch the frame, then apply KBS primer, then KBS paint. The motor and transmission will be painted while it is out. There are 28,000 miles on the car and I plan to have a compression check done to see if an overhaul is in order. The car runs and shifts well. I will keep the body with Fiesta red when painted. Although the seats are in good condition I would like to reupholster the interior with leather although I know this was not OEM. I will make a decision on this later. Any thoughts from you will be appreciated. A picture is posted for you to see the car. My email address is phillips.larryc@gmail.com. This is just in case you have comments that you do not want posted on the forum. I live in Georgia and my first name is Larry.

1956 Ford Thunderbird In Front of Garage in Drive Way - 11-2-2017.jpg

 

Hey Larry, I'll go out on a limb and invite you to stay here on the Buick Club forum.  That's a beautiful T bird, and if you are certain the mileage is 28K I would encourage you to show us more of the body issues that concern you. 

 

You see, I hate to think of a 28K original car being torn apart just to do some cosmetic touchups.  Lately in this hobby there is a saying that goes like this:  It's only original once.  Original cars are revered in their entirety lately, flaws and all.  It's often mentioned that our cars never came from the factory in perfect condition.  But it is always up to the owner.  If you need a perfect car then by all means follow your program.  But if you want to drive a beauty,  then it looks like you have jumped to the head of the pack with this little cutie! 

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Larry,

Thanks for not being offended by my suggestion to start a thread on your car.

There are countless hours of looking through peoples threads here and you will find most are more than willing to help answer any questions you might have and direct you to someone that may have that special piece you are looking for.

Jim is one of those guys I've come to know and if you have read through his thread know he won an award driving it to a National meet so his experience (and sharing how he accomplished it) is of great help. 

 

Canadian T Bird eh? 

Port Colborne is a ways from Windsor but having put my Special away every fall, keeping her out of the salt we use around here, is what saved her too. Of course the oil and tranny leaks helped also! :D

Saying that however, owning a Buick means dealing with them "marking their spot" simply as their trade mark.

 

Looking forward to reading the journey with your car.

Enjoy the ride and these Forums!

Doug 

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