1915 Fiat Tipo 2b Skiff

Hiya people,

I have had the remains of a 1915 Fiat Tipo 2B for a few years now and over the years I have been restoring it and building on it a "skiff" body built with layers of Sapele mahogany strips over an ash frame.

I do not have lots of years of expericance with veteran cars so I am having to work everything out as I go. I have bought many many books both modern and from the period to learn as much as I can. I still have questions and I hope this group might be able to make suggestions that will help me get things right the first time.

Silly things like how much clearance to leave between the twisting chassis and the wooden rails that go above them.... I was going to mount the body on 4 or 6 points with rubber blocks.... I have gone for a strong body well isolated from the twisting of the chassis.

Also what thoughts do people have about what extra instruments I should fit?

Originaly it had oil pressure and air pressure gauges only. I have a period Star 60mph speedo, Stewart Warner 200-2000 rpm tacho, volt meter and a nice large Bleriot light switch to match the head and tail lights I have for it..... BUT I think I might well be over doing it and I am thinking about what to delete.... volt meter? Speedo or tacho??

I am trying to build it "in the period". And I am being very pedantic about it and aiming impossibly high with this as my guiding phrase "every item I fit to or make for the Fiat should be a work of art in it's own right"...

I figure I might as well aim high and miss than not aim high at all!

regards

Gavin

New Zealand

1915 Fiat 2 Fiat skiff recreation.

We would all like to see photos of your geat 1915 Fiat Mahogany skiff project !

As you can see I have a Rolls~Royce Silver Ghost Mahogany Skiff also!

On these high-end mahogany skiffs in their day usually no expence was spared on extra accessory items such as gauges etc.

They were the customs & sportscars of their day~

Only the very wealthy had these "custom coachwork" body cars built.

They usually added many extras that the typical average man's car never had installed !

Use all quality period date correct hig-end quality accessory items.

Please post some photos of your ongoing skiff project !

I now have some pitures of my Fiat project up on a ficker photo page if anyone is interested.

37ccmflyte's photosets on Flickr

Then click "Fiat Tipo 2 Skiff"

Regards

Gavin

1915 Fiat, tipo 2 skiff project.

Oh. My. God. I had no idea that such craftsmanship still exists in the modern world.

Any idea what this thing is going to look like when you're done? Well, I'm sure you know exactly where you're going with it but can you share that vision with the rest of us? Are you basing the design on a particular original car or just combining the finest of the world's very best wooden boats and wood-bodied cars into an original masterpiece?

"I have based the basic lines of the body on a 1913 Swiss built lake racing launch" Thanks.

Do you know what sort of body this chassis first carried? Was it always a Kiwi car? Does anyone ever speak to you, except in a series of gape-mouthed questions?

I am in awe.

Gavin, that is an absolute work of art, thanks for sharing.

Silverghost, please share some photos of your land yacht, too. This is a whole 'nother definition of "hybrid".

Congratulations on the excellent workmanship, I look forward to seeing your progress on it.

Do you have any information or experience regarding the touring performance of the Fiat 2b, are they strong runners?

Do you have any information or experience regarding the touring performance of the Fiat 2b, are they strong runners?

Just back from gluing up the wood "frame" to my mahogany firewall that the bonnet will rest on for the American LaFrance....

The Fiat Tipo 2 is a 2816cc so that's about 172 cubic inches. They are just a normal fixed L head sidevalve. They DO have a four speed trans which should help road work. Factory they are 28hp at 1850 rpm and a top speed of 44 mph.

But I plan to raise the compression, run a better carb (still old) and have extracters instead of the cast exhaust mainfold and do some porting and valve work and a new cam. So that will give me some more power. I am also going to have a very small frontal area and I am trying to keep the overall car weight to a minium.

So basically I am going to do the best I can with what I have to work with to get it to go as well as I can.

A new diff ratio will be made in time and I hope to have a crusing speed of about 50mph and a top of a little over 60.

Regards

Gavin

Any idea what this thing is going to look like when you're done? Well, I'm sure you know exactly where you're going with it but can you share that vision with the rest of us? Are you basing the design on a particular original car or just combining the finest of the world's very best wooden boats and wood-bodied cars into an original masterpiece?

"I have based the basic lines of the body on a 1913 Swiss built lake racing launch" Thanks.

Do you know what sort of body this chassis first carried? Was it always a Kiwi car?

Thanks for the kind words. To answer your questions....

The car was built at the Fiat works in late 1915 and had a Fiat built tourer body on it in "red with brass plating on the bright work" according to the original doccuments that are still held by Fiat.

It was sent to New Zealand in very early 1916.

The only remains I have of the oprginal body are the scuttle, firewall and bonnet. (the metal work still has the original very faded red paint on them in places)

I have not based it on a "real" historc car. But this how I looked at it....

If I had the chassis new in 1915 what would I build? I would have gone to a coachbuilder with a picture of the racing boat and said to them "I want this please". So I am building in as if I am that coachbuilder in 1915 and using the same basic techniques and most of the same materials. In fact to only thing I am doing different is using modern glue.

As for the finished look....... picture this....

I am going to a very light delicate look.

The body when it gets it's last layer of wood will have about 10 horizontal planks on the sides in mahogany and "deck" will be a V or chevron pattern with alternating mahogany and American maple (narrower) on the top.

To top at all.

A small V wind sheild in line with the chevron pattern.

All the body will be high gloss clearcoat with the copper nails showing.

The seats dark blue leather.

The chassis and wheels and fenders will be bright blue, with lighter blue pins.

The inside of the cockpit will have the wood exposed with maple ribs held in place with glue and copper nails and rovs.

All bright work will be brass.

No running boards, just a step and seperate fixed fenders in green that will look like the bow wave of a boat..... ie you will see under them from the side....

Brass half oval trim around the body.... but not over done.

Marine fittings on the deck, funnels and small bolards for hand holds to get in.

Wheels are Rudge Whitworth wires with model T Ford sized tyres.

Even a little brass flag pole holder on the back... which will fly the Italian flag of 1915 with the white cross on it.

On the back I will have "Fiat Torino" like a boat would have it's name and port cut out in brass.

Polished copper radiator to match the colour of the wood and copper nails in the planks. No spare wheel at all.

So can you picture that???

Regards

Gavin

Whoa, can I ever! It's going to be spectacular. You appear to have the exceedingly rare combination of fine taste, outstanding technical skills, and dogged determination. And discretionary time, too, it seems.

I'm intrigued by your reference to "roves". Google tells me they are dished copper washers that, used with copper nails, fasten two or more layers of wood together. It's the same principle as a pop rivet, which maybe was derived from this ship-building practice.

As I understand it, the nail head remains generally hidden inside the work, while the peened rove is out in the open for all to enjoy. I really like the thought of that. I haven't seen many wooden boats up close but you've triggered an new interest for me.

Installing the nail, installing the rove; rove, copper nails, and rove iron (set)

Thanks for your very kind words. I like to think another strength I have is knowing my limits and asking for advice from others. In the design stage of that body I would invite friends and boatbuilders in to look at it and I would say VERY CLEARLY.....

"I have no ego in this, if you see something that you think is wrong then TELL ME NOW! I do not want you to come over later and say, "yes I noticed that but figured you know what you were doing" TELL ME NOW!"

That approach has resulted in some good honest suggestions coming from people.

I also have an artist friend who helps with it. I know when a line is "right", BUT he can create "the right line".

I have ultered the spec a little today too... colour of the frame and running gear and radiator finish....

Yes those are nail and roves.... the nails I will use on the outside of the body have flat heads so they end up totally flat to the wood finish, and the roves stick into the inside and have the ends of the nails peened over. It's really like rivoting for woodwork.

Regards

Gavin

Regards

Gavin

Doing the design work in my head today for he headlight mounts....

The lamps are brass French Bleriot bell shaped lamps that have a single tube mounting at the bottom. I want to preserve the clean top line of the chassis rail from the front to the radiator so I am going to mount the end of the lamp mount inside the chassis rail.

Rather than having a boring straight pipe coming up to it I will get some steel and turn a gental tapper in it's full length then bend that to an "upsidedown question mark shape".

That way it will look more like a period cast item....

I have insane standards for myself on this car. I want every part however small to be a work of art on it's own. I aim high and if I don't get their every time I at least get their some of the time.

All the small details in a build add up to an overall perception of quality even if the small details get lost in the overall look they still ad to the whole impression.

Gavin

Rob, I assume it'll look something like the photo below.

Now THAT is woodworking!!!!! It'll rank right up there with Dubonet's Hispano Suiza.

Trying to put some pictures in here... fingers crossed it works!

Gavin

Making new spring shackles to replace the two missing ones today.

I have shaped the parts and I will have them professionally welded on Thursday, then I will set them up either in the lathe or milling machine to bore the holes for the spindles..... fun fun fun!

Gavin

Okay, I got it backwards - the copper nail heads show and the roves are hidden. That does fit more with my scant memories of wooden boats, with the flush nail heads protected by many layers of varnish. Far more hydrodynamic than I was imagining.

The crankcase of this very tall engine looks like aluminum. The head appears to be iron and has had some repair work done. I've got to ask - how are you going to check the oil? Lift off the body? Will this beauty have a bonnet or will it be serviced through the portholes?

The engine has a sump that is in aluminum and is cast in one with the gearbox case.... quite and amazing casting. The crankcase on top of that is aluminum also them the barrel and fixed head is cast iron.

Yes, it has at some time in it's past had frost cracks in the water jacket... they look to have been "repaired" in the long distant past with copper, brass and lead and or solder.... has made a hell of a mess of it. With all those other metals contaminating the cast iron I could never have it cast iron welded.... so my options are to cut the section out and cast a new bit and have it welded in or clean it up as best I can and use a modern epoxy filler.... which is what I will do. The water system is not pressurized so it should be ok.

It will have a hood that opens both sides. The problem was that with hinging it along the middle like a normal car the non folding hood side would hit the fender when opening...

So my solution is to have the lower part of the engine bay side fixed. So the hood opens 6 or more inches up from the chassis rail. I will also leave some wood at the front by the radiator. So their will be a "frame" of wood right around the hood.... looks better and is strong.

The engine also comes out of the chassis down not up which is handy for this style of body.

I am planning a full one side mock up this weekend so I should have pictures soon of the hood marked out and mock ups of fenders and wheels....

Regards

Gavin

Pictures of the damaged block...

The hood, then, will be cut out of the wooden hull that you've already constructed. That will be very handsome. I see what you mean - cutting the opening above the frame line and behind the rear of the radiator will preserve some of the strength of the laid-up wood structure.

Interesting that a car which spent its whole career in NZ would have suffered frost damage. That's why my Buick was taken out of service many years ago, which of course is not uncommon in this part of the world.

Yes the hood openings the rear hatch/trunk on the aft deck and the final shape of the cockpit will all be cut and wooden edging put inside to give the edges strength before the third and final layer of sapele mahogany goes on.

I would never get frost damage where I am in the very north of New Zealand, but in the South Island where the car was sold new in 1916 it was a very real problem.

Regards

Gavin

Many years ago, wifey and I spent a very damp and cold couple of days in Dunedin, way down on the South Island. Snow would not have surprised us and this was shortly before Christmas. I swore I could see Antarctica when the fog briefly cleared.

Have you been tracing pencil lines all over the body, choosing where to dive in with the jigsaw? In effect, then, we're seeing the "primer" here - you've still got a finish coat of veneer to layer on. Fascinating.

Fiat Tipo 2 Skiff 1915 - a set on Flickr

13 more pictures posted at the flicker site above of the weekends work on the car.

Changed the four round port holes to five slanted oval holes with two bands over them... they will be cut out of brass and have fine brass mesh in the holes.

Then the rear hatch shape was roughed out to follow the chevron deck lines front and back and the petrol filler placed. The nickel petrol cap will be striped to brass and modified and the chalk outline around it will be a brass plate that the cap can rest against when it is screwed off but still held with an internal short chain.

Then we made a VERY basic first mock up of a front fender so we could test the hood would clear it and have a base to work from. Suddenly it looks more like a car!

I am very pleased with the new port holes, they slant forward for a sense of speed and line up with the fender nicely.

It's slowly coming together!

Regards

Gavin

Gavin

Beautiful work. If you google 1911 Paris Breese you will see a similar concept. Not a skiff, but nice for reference. You probably know this one already.

My question today is - where is the cooling fan for the engine. Is there one by the radiator? or is it in the flywheel? If in the flywheel, Airflow through the radiator with the side vents you are planning might be concerning.

Bob McAnlis

My question today is - where is the cooling fan for the engine. Is there one by the radiator? or is it in the flywheel? If in the flywheel, Airflow through the radiator with the side vents you are planning might be concerning.

Bob McAnlis

Good question and one I was explaining to a freind only yesterday.

The 1912 era Fiat Tipo 2 has the fan in the flywheel. By 1915 the Tipo 2 had gone to the motor driven fan at the radiator. I have the fan but not the mount on the block. The previous owner restored a 1912 Tipo 2 and nicked the block from the 1915 engine and cut off the fan mount... I have the 1912 cracked block without the fan mount... that he did not keep! Rather then make a new fan mount I am planning to mount a temterature controled electric fan with a metal shroud over the back of the radiator core. I hope to do it in a nice descrete way. This way I can have a faster warm up and better temperature control which is important for a car I intend to use and try and gain a little more power from.

Thanks for the tip on the 1911 Paris Breese I have just googled that and I had NOT seen it before I am sure I will get good ideas from it. Thanks!

Regards

Gavin

Spent some time last week making parts for the handbrake. All I had was the main Fiat lever and a broken small hand lever and the curved toothed part from a Simplex (ebay) that was too long..... so with only a very bad fuzzy photo copy of a parts book I set about making the parts.... I have them ready for the welder... then I will have the wearing parts case hardened.

I also worked on the geargate/handbrake pivot area too... some idiot in the past had cut the end off the gate.... taking away the bearing for the hand brake lever and the arms that hold up the hand brake toothed arm....

So I have turned up a new end in steel.... and I will cut the steel arms off an earlier 1912ish Fiat gate I have and weld them on in the right place.

Fun in the workshop!

Gavin

The next engineering task is to make new transmission brake shoes and the make all the missing parts to activate them.

I have the correct brake drum for the car BUT the shoes that came with it are either from a 1912 Fiat Tipo 2 or a Fiat Zero.... so the are for a smaller drum.

I have looked into heating these shoes and reshaping them... but now I think the better way will be to fabricate some new shoes from steel and cut off and use the ends of the shoes I have......

Thinking thinking thinking....

Gavin

I would think that getting a smaller drum to adapt would be an easier task than altering the shoes.

That drum looks like it could be duplicated by a good machine shop in the right size.

Interesting comments thanks!

I woke up this morning with the idea of putting a series of equally spaced saw cuts just over half way through the cooling ribs.... in say 5 places then heating the area and closing the saw cuts until I have the right curve, then v out the cuts and tig them up... and set the shoes up in the lathe and skim the surface to "mostly right" and any other irregularities can be taken up in the machining of the brake lining.

The shoes are cast steel not cast iron so it could work if done right..... and I would check with the welder that the material welds ok first!

I should mention at this point that my father is retired fitter/turner/tool maker with Naval training and I grow up in his extensive home workshop so I have some reasonable engineering back ground...

Regards

Gavin

huh?

Just SPAM, ignore it. I am sure that a moderator will delete it at some point.

huh?

Yes a moderator has deleted the spam post and banned the spammer. If you were to click the report button (exclamation point in a triangle) near the lower left corner of the post you could report the post in the same amount of time that it takes to reply to it. Reporting the post immediately sends a notification to the moderators which allows us to solve the problem much more quickly.

Yes a moderator has deleted the spam post and banned the spammer. If you were to click the report button (exclamation point in a triangle) near the lower left corner of the post you could report the post in the same amount of time that it takes to reply to it. Reporting the post immediately sends a notification to the moderators which allows us to solve the problem much more quickly.

I reported it as soon as I read it a little while ago and POOF....gone.