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RUST DOES SLEEP, ACTUALLY (life with a '57 Roadmaster)


Guest Rob McDonald

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Guest Rob McDonald

Last month, I tagged onto a thread that was started by KIWI56R. Responding to his anguish at the current cost of '57 Buick ball joints, I related my own long-ago purchase of an NOS set of these. They were for my Roadmaster Riviera sedan that's been sporadically "under restoration" for close to forty years now.

I'm new to this forum technology and it took me until now to figure out how to return to that thread. When I finally linked back in tonight, I was really touched at how many people have replied to my request for encouragement to get back out to the garage and enjoy this magnificent hobby again. They urged me to start a new thread on my long experience with this car (purchased February, 1973), so here goes.

It's been so long since I've had this old thing out in the daylight, I don't even have any digital photos of it to post here. I promise, that's on tomorrow's To-Do list. Thank you all for this very warm AACA welcome - I'm feeling a twinge of motivation already. ~Rob

Edited by Rob McDonald
to attract more specific interest (see edit history)
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Wow, purchased in 1973!!! Great to hear you're pulling her out and getting her going again. Look forward to following your progress and seeing and hearing the details here.

If I might suggest, you may want to add " '57 Roadmaster " to the end of "Rust Does Sleep" as it is more likely to pull more 50's Buick enthusiasts in that way. Just go back to the first post and "edit" it. Just a suggestion. :) Holler if you need help starting to post pics etc.

Buickly,

MrEarl buba.gif

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Guest Rob McDonald

Thanks, MrEarl, good advice. I don't want to be flooded with replies from desperate people, thinking that I've discovered the secret to halting rust. It's pretty simply, really. Just never take a car out of dry storage. Today, I'm about to start the process of breaking that rule. Pictures at 11. ~Rob

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Rob:

I just finished (99.8% anyway) a '57 Roadmaster convertible. I purchased mine the fall of 1992. I guess that makes me an old timer in restoration too, but just about half as long as you. Loving care takes a lifetime, just ask my wife. Welcome back, you will find lots of support here including just where to acquire what is needed to get you over any sticking point.

Dan

'57 - 76C

'57 - 56R

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Rob, welcome to the club! I bought my 1957 Special in 1985 and am finally getting around to restoring it as well. You have me beat by a few years, but I can tell youthat this forum is the besti thing since sliced bread. If you need or want to know anything, this is the place. The people on this are the best by far with knowledge and the curiosity to learn all the time. I wish you luck and many enjoyable times on your path. Drop a line or a post anytime..many will respond to your needs.

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Guest Rob McDonald

I think I've figured out the photo posting routine. Attached, I hope, is my patient project as seen today, November 14, 2010. Looks like it's almost ready to go, doesn't it? Well, it has looked like this for a very long time.

I actually have almost every part required to finish this. It's time that's been in short supply. One major purchase that remains is the upholstery materials, which are exactly like what's installed in TG57Roadmaster's beautiful (and finished) almost-twin to my car.

Back when such things were possible, I picked up all the sweep spear moldings that I need at a swap meet - NOS, still in the thick wax paper packaging. I was also lucky enough to find a good rear bumper end from a single-exhaust Special and had another not-so-bad one rebuilt in heavy steel. The chroming bill for the front and rear bumpers and the rear quarter bottoms came to just $800 - but those were big, fat 1980s dollars.

The engine hasn't run for probably fifteen years but I'm not expecting any trouble there. The air is dry out here, so engines don't generally seize unless you leave them outside with no cylinder heads. I'll pull out the spark plugs and spritz in a bit of light oil, then disconnect the fuel line and spin the engine over for a while, to get the oil pressure up. I'm pretty sure it'll fire right away and run just as sweetly as it did when I first built it, in 1985. The Dynaflow's seals dried up years ago, so today I was surprised to see that it had dumped yet another quart of fluid into a pan that I'd left under there, when I had the car towed to its present resting place four years ago.

That tow was quite an experience. My wife and I had just built a new house only two doors down from our old place. I rounded up some neighbours to help push the Buick into the new garage. Six of us could not budge it. The seals on at least two of the brake cylinders had let go since the car was last driven and those wheels were now locked solid. A tow truck was finally called in.

As we winched the car out of the old garage, one wheel popped free and started to roll but the other one held on tight. The right rear tire skidded across the concrete floor and didn't let go - with a great clang - until it started down the driveway. The concrete there had a rougher surface and offered more frictional torque to counter the bond between the brake shoes and the rusted brake drum. I expect I'll be needing some brake parts, which happily are still easy to find. Getting the brake drums off is going to be a huge challenge, I'm sure.

Oh dear. I just got a message from the Administrator that there's something wrong with the photos I tried to upload tonight. Coincidentally, I see there are fresh instructions for this on the Me and My Buick forum page, posted by Centurion. However, it's very late, so that will have to be tomorrow's project. Thanks for listening. ~Rob

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Hi Rob! When posting the pictures, try to post a couple at a time. I have had a heck of a time trying to post 9 - 10 pictures at once. Upload 2 or 3, then go back to upload a couple more. Once they are uploaded, review your post to make sure that they are there, then hit send. that is what usually works for me. Looking forward to seeing your version of TG's twin!!

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Guest Rob McDonald

buickjim (if I may call you that, for short), your way sounds easier that uploading to a website, as recommended by Centurion. Here goes...

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Guest Rob McDonald

YEE-HAH! I got it to work! The photos were just too big at first, so I knocked them down to size in iPhoto.

Here it is, the cumulative product of about a week's worth of work and almost four decades of procrastination. Even when I squint, I'm having a hard time imagining this dashboard ever looking like the one in TG's car. Like everything worthwhile, though, the first step toward completion requires taking the first step. Which I've now done. ~Rob

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Sounds like you're really excited about getting back on your fitysebem. I too am getting back in my barn and on some projects I had to put aside while doing time. (in the wardens honeydew patch, 5 years but with good behavior I was released in 4). So I know how you feel.

Love the two tone. What color is that bottom. And it's a four door hard top. :cool: . That car looks like it's traveling 100 mph just sitting still. That was always one of Harley Earls design criteria, that a car look like it's moving while sittin still. Look forward to following your progress. Keep up the enthusiasm, it's contagious. :)

Edited by MrEarl (see edit history)
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Rob, Great photo's! Congrat's on getting them posted. What a beauty!!!Remember when you get started that every great race starts with the first step. I have attached a couple of photos of the same endeavor on the dash. You to will beam when it is done, especially when you look at what your own hands have done to bring it back from chaos (or what seemed like it at the time!) It is awesome that you are restarting an adventure that began decades ago..keep the faith and keep posting and asking questions. The people on this forum are the best living encyclopedia of restoration that has ever been assembled!

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Rob,

Lookin' fine! Be very careful when you remove the dash's aluminum fascia. The "engine-turning" is an applique,

rather than a pattern actually swirled in metal like the '40-'41's. Too many have tried cleaning the fascia's

surface, with even mild product, and watched that lovely finish disappear. After the 4 vertical cove zoomies

are removed, if the panel needs any cleaning, test the area under the zoomies first (it won't show if you

screw it up) before proceeding.

I think I might have used plain water/soft cloth to remove what little needed cleaning on mine; just be careful!

Jim,

Nothing like doing it up right!

TG

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Guest Rob McDonald

LAMAR, the colours are Dover White over what might be Starlight Blue Metallic. Way back when the paint job was done, I found the correct code for the white but the blue was a match-up job, which turned out pretty well. I'm uncertain about this because the body ID plate says the Paint is CO. "C" is Dover White but there's no "O" code that I've found. Maybe the "O" indicated no two-tone and the blue was added by the dealer or sometime later. As you say, though, it does look sharp.

JIM, you are so right. I'm finding you people to be very encouraging and helpful, just like "car guys" were twenty years ago. Of course, many of us are the same guys, just greyer.

OTHER JIM, the Dynoc pattern on my instrument panel is in good shape, so taking your advice, I'm definitely going to leave it alone. I did most of the work I needed to inside the dash years ago, when I installed the factory A/C out of a parts car. So other than blowing out some dust, there's not much to do in there but put it all back together.

On AACA's Buick-General Forum last week, I put out a call for the dust seals and steel seal covers, which didn't come with the NOS ball joints that I put in the car thirty years ago. So far, no replies. Would any of you have a parts car out the the back forty, which might give these up? Even if the joints themselves are worn out, as usual, these pieces might be usable. Or, they could serve as a pattern, to help me find something that fits. Any leads? ~Rob

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Rob McDonald

I've let this thread get a bit stale. Sorry, I'm supposed to be posting my progress on resuming this restoration project. Honestly, there hasn't been any garage action yet. Through their posts, I've been watching Mike and Mud and Adam get all sorts of jobs done, so that should count for something.

I dug out my musty collection of Buick sales literature and uploaded the upholstery options for 1957 to the Buick - Post War forum. That was a positive hobby-oriented action, although it didn't actually require my going out to the garage.

Through this medium, I got some basic instruction on chrome buffing - see the thread "Stainless Trim on the 56 Buick?", under Buick - Post War. There's been no response yet to my search for ball joint seals but that's certainly not holding up progress. Re-doing my car's rusted-out brake hydraulic system, damaged by all those years of storage, will be my first task.

It's good and cold now but I have a lovely new insulated garage with a powerful heater. No excuses there. Will tomorrow be it, the first day of the rest of my project? Let's see. ~Rob

Edited by Rob McDonald (see edit history)
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Rob:

Back in my engineering days, I drew up the ball joint seals in AutoCad. I will share them with you if you just happen to have a best friend that is a tool and die maker that can get them molded for you. I do not know if others would make it work as a small interprise. You could take a sample to your John Deere dealer and probably match them to some of the JD tie rod ends. You could have the steel cups made by forming some light fender washers around a sphere (trailer Ball).

Dan

'57 - 76C

'57 - 56R

Edited by Caballero2 (see edit history)
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I am new at this...just over a year and I have learned so much from this community.

Most importantly, don't set "Deadlines" or even time goals, they only serve to frustrate what should be a fun activity...in other words don't turn it into another "Job" that has to get done. You will only start to resent the whole idea.

Work on it when it suits you...don't when it doesn't. I think you will find it will take more time yes but also the quality of the work will be better and most importantly you will be having fun at it!

Eating an elephant is slow work, it's just one bite at a time. Pick one thing to do, finish it and then take another "bite" ;) .

You can do it.

Have fun

Mike said it best right here.....

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I'm not going to disagree with Bob, but one thing to keep in mind is that different people have different motivators. Some folks would be highly motivated by trying to meet self-imposed deadlines, however, haste can lead to frustrations and errors.

My '29 has been in the garage here over 2 years now with effectively nothing happening to it. I could use the excuse of the garage not yet being insulated / heated, but that is just an excuse. I keep filling my time with other stuff.

Ultimately, Mike said it well. If you are a planning type person, spend some time outlining what needs doing, then break those down into smaller, more concrete tasks, and make note what is needed for each (i.e. tools, materials, work to be done by yourself or professional). It was -29 C here this morning, so having something to do on a computer / at a table starting with pen and paper could be useful. You can even get more complex with it, indicating the order of tasks (i.e. body work needs to be done before paint as a simple example) or dependency of tasks. Once you have it broken down enough, then it can be easier to do as Mike suggested - accomplish a single task and check it off. Depending on your personal style, photos that inspire you can be used, or you may want to consider a white board in the garage to be able to jot things down on (I don't know if it is age or what, but if I think of something in the garage, I may no longer know about it when I get to the house to be able to write it down...or even getting the correct tool or what have you).

Hmm...as I go over that, I begin to think that perhaps it is time for me to start taking my own advice and looking at the '29 in a bit more depth / detail.

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Another thing to think aboot ( ;) ) is perhaps just put it all back together and drive it. You KNOW that the brakes need to be addressed. Do them first. New shoes, rubber lines, wheel cylinders, rebuild the master, etc. Get the car started and tuned. Put a fresh carpet in. Drive it and enjoy. It's waited this long. You don't HAVE to restore it by taking it off the frame. Sometimes by hanging around the forum, you feel you need to go farther than you really do. Your car appears to be in reasonably nice shape. After you have the car driveable and enjoy it for a couple of years, THEN maybe think about painting it and doing all of the disassembly, stainless buffing, etc.

Just another option.

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Rob,

I agree with what Mike and Dave said. That's what I did 20 yrs ago, fixed my Special up to just drive it around and enjoy it as a clasic should be enjoyed. Now I am little more seasoned and able to spruce it up a bit with new / NOS / parts that is what is going on now. I still get it out and enjoy the heck out of driving it. No frame off resto, just fun simple pleasure of creating an beauty with your own two hands. Your's looks like it is in decent shape to do that. Just enjoy the iron that Detroit designed and built more than a half century ago and smile like heck when you drive it!! :D

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Guest Rob McDonald

DAN, backing up several days, you made a generous offer to send me fabrication drawings for ball joint seals and covers. That would be fabulous! Please either post a .pdf file here or send me a Private Message, suggesting how this information can be conveyed. I use AutoCAD in my work, so the native file would be very welcome.

Depending on what I can find in the way of a match-up, I'll be very pleased to spread the word among the unfortunate community of '57 Buick suspension design victims.

Now please explain, how in the world did you decide to make these drawings a class project? ~Rob

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I have been eighteen years on my Roadmaster project. When I first started, I too had a NOS set of ball joints but only the upper ones had the seal. I figured that if I was ever going to have new ones for the lower I was going to have to reproduce them. So after drawing them up based on the tattered remains of an old set, I came across a NOS set so that is what I used on my project. In the meantime, I finished my engineering career and bought a small farm and retired there to persue an interest in hobby farming along with '57 vintage cars and tractors. I have yet to restore a tractor even though I have a '57 Oliver Super 55 and a '57 John Deere 3010. The John Deere has an after market wide front. On the front suspension tie rods there are heavy rod ends. The rubber seals are strikingly similiar to those of the Buick ball joints. I will probably use these on my next project a '57 Buick Super two door hardtop.

I will be happy to forward a CD with the original Autocad drawings in release 14 to you. PM me with a mailing address and Merry Christmas. - Dan

P.S. I can also email the files to you if your prefer.

Edited by Caballero2 (see edit history)
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Dan and Rob, Let me know about those cad files, I have access to a molded rubber manufacturer that I rep. We could get a quote on seeing what it would cost to get the molds cut and low volume parts made for fellow restorers, similar to what TG is doing with the fuel doors. Just a thought if you would like to follow that route. Let me know.

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Guest Rob McDonald

JIM, I wonder how much demand there is for these parts. The (obscenely expensive) rebuilt ball joints from Kanter Auto Products are modified to use modern factory-sealed joints, so that the original seals are no longer required. Is that typically the route taken by restorers of '57 Buicks?

On a low-mileage car that hasn't spent a hard life on gravel roads, maybe the joints are still good but the rubber seals are broken down. That's probably the potential market for reproduction parts, along with us few lucky dogs who've found an incomplete NOS set.

What I'm hoping to learn from Dan's drawing is that currently available parts will do the job. That way, I can publish the part numbers and anyone will be able to go down to their local bearing supply shop - or John Deere dealer - and order a set. My car will serve as the guinea pig for fitting up whatever I find that seems to fit. Happily, these ball joints aren't hard to remove and reinstall, as I recall.

I'm still waiting for US Mail to pass Dan's CD over to Canada Post but am enjoying the Christmas anticipation for a few more days.

I should reiterate some advice that I read somewhere else on this forum. If you find that your Buick's ball joints have some slop in them, don't panic - they were built that way. They're just telling you it's time for some more grease, which takes the clunk out of them again. It makes for a messy undercarriage as the grease leaks through but that's how the bottoms of cars used to look. The surgical cleanliness so admired at car shows is just weird and not really authentic. "Shiny side up, greasy side down" is how old cars are meant to be.

I learned this clearance tip from a long-time GM mechanic, at the 1980s swap meet where I found my NOS ball joints (paid $300, just to rub it in). I was concerned about the loose fit and asked my old friend Ron Mattison to come over and check them out. He'd started his wrenching career at Edmonton Motors Chev-Olds-Cadillac in 1955 (Ron still drives the '56 Chev 210 station wagon that he bought new). No problem, he said, they all fit like that. He recalled that it caused some unnecessary replacements "back in the day".

When the joints are dry, up to 1/16" free play is within factory specs, according to Ron. Unfortunately, I haven't found backup for this advice in the Buick Service Bulletins but I'm okay with believing a man who was there.

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Rob, I am not sure about the demand either, and I think your approach is a lot less costly if you can find an alternative for the boots from another application. You are very lucky to have found those babies at that price..another thing from the "back in my day" book.

You are right about the "show car" vs. "the way it was /is" bottom / top statement. I have greased the heck out of my ball joints and yes, they look sloppy, but they work rather well and I don't seem to have too much play in them. The car only has 18,700 miles on it, so they shouldn't be too worn out.

As owners of these classics, we should also understand that the steering / suspension on these are not like today's vehicles that we drive every day. That is an unfair comparison because of advances in materials and technologies since our cars were built.

Let me know what you would like to do once you get the CAD data. Who know's - maybe we can become a cottage industry and get correct repro parts vice the out east operation! :)

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Guest Rob McDonald

My year-end week off is almost over and I can report that I did get out to the garage several times. However, it was for a lingering new house project - privacy glass in the borrowed-light windows of the kids' bathroom. They've been stuffing pillows in the holes for four years now but the cats keep pushing them out - just because they can. My 12-year-old daughter has been remarkably patient about this but the time had finally come.

At least I was working alongside the Buick, which has also been very patient. It's much easier to imagine the restoration tasks that lay ahead of me, now that I'm feeding off this forum. The challenge of freshening up the grille was incredibly well informed by the thread led by Jim in the last week. Where else could one get first-person, real-time advice like that?

Watching Jerry's '56 Buick emerge piece by piece in its new livery of Coral and Cream has been exciting. His daunting chore of buffing up chrome trim, which was purposely sanded down to look Rat, came with excellent instructions on how to do it right. I especially appreciated the comment in the Caswell website that Stealthbob linked us to, "For the workshop where only the occasional piece of work needs to be buffed, an economic alternative to purchasing a special machine is to simply adapt a bench grinder."

THANK YOU BOB! Not only did this wisdom save me some money, I also didn't know where I could possibly mount yet another single purpose power tool. A wise word to those of you contemplating a new shop: Never, EVER, build a garage that will be smaller than the one you're moving out of.

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  • 3 months later...
Guest Rob McDonald

WELL GUYS, it finally worked. This Forum has motivated me to don ratty clothes and head out to the garage. You've caused me to open my toolbox (cue spooky creaking sound) and lay wrenches to my old car. It felt good on the weekend, so I'm going out there again tonight. Hope to make a habit of this. Please look for technical details at http://forums.aaca.org/f115/57-buick-ball-joint-question-probably-292843.html

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WELL GUYS, it finally worked. This Forum has motivated me to don ratty clothes and head out to the garage. You've caused me to open my toolbox (cue spooky creaking sound) and lay wrenches to my old car. It felt good on the weekend, so I'm going out there again tonight. Hope to make a habit of this. Please look for technical details at http://forums.aaca.org/f115/57-buick-ball-joint-question-probably-292843.html

Continuation of a past era.... Looking forward to hearing about your progress and more pictures as you go.

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  • 1 year later...
Guest Rob McDonald

Back from the living dead...

My long slow project is back in gear. I've just purchased the factory-correct interior materials from SMS Auto Fabrics - picked it up at their shop, in fact, and have an upholsterer lined up to do the seats. This is the last expensive stage of the job. The rest is all my labour and, truly, I have nothing better to do.

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Guest Rob McDonald

No, South Bend is not realistic for me. It's not the distance so much but rather the number of months remaining. The 2014 BCA National Meet in Portland, Oregon is my target.

Don't be fooled, guys, I've misled this Forum before. I've just gotta hope this time the spark catches.

Edited by Rob McDonald (see edit history)
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Rob,

As therapy, I would suggest re-reading my thread on frame on restoration. All you need are the parts (good, bad and ugly) and the time and inclination to lay hand to wrench without getting stuck in the procrastination loop. Remember, it ain't going to get done by itself!! You are the engine to complete that job. Also, it helps to take a day or two to list out in minute detail all the tasks that need to be done. I did that with my car and ended up with a list of over 250 separate tasks to the project (and a lot more, just only broke down the tasks so far)..but the list becomes your approach to tackling the job bit by bit. Just keep checking them off, one by one, and pretty soon, Mr Rust Never Sleeps..becomes the Beautiful 1957 Roadie that you have in your minds eye. The process is fraught with challenges, especially working alone, but the journey, my friend, is worth the effort.

Now go get those tasks written up, the wrenches at the ready, the Blue in the fridge and the music from your 8-track in the garage ready to crank some Rush and Neil Young ! Go my man and JUST DO IT!!!

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Rob,

.

Now go get those tasks written up, the wrenches at the ready, the Blue in the fridge and the music from your 8-track in the garage ready to crank some Rush and Neil Young ! Go my man and JUST DO IT!!!

Oh yeah!

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Guest Rob McDonald

Lists? Man, have I got Buick to-do lists. Lists at home, lists at work, and Franz Liszt on the garage iPod dock. Really, though, I'm more of 3B's kind of guy - Bach, Beethoven, and Brubeck. I dropped out of pop music shortly after high school and never did own an 8-track player. Furthermore, the freakin' pills I take don't play well with beer. Or life.

So, there's my True Confessions - can I still stay?

Autumn finally blew into town today, reminding me that because my stupid little car didn't sell, I need to take it out to the storage barn soon. That will clear "my" half of the garage again. Before I bring the Buick back in, I have to go through my many boxes of loose parts, sorting what goes back on the car and what's extra. Over the years, I've done this several times but it gets all scrambled again when I change garages. I've probably left a trail of small and impossible to replace parts, as this project has moved from place to place to place.

When the Buick does come home, task number one is to remove the seats and take them to the upholsterer. I showed him photos of TG57Roadmaster's identical interior, installed by none other than Lew Jenkins. He sniffed, "That's pretty good. Yours will be better."

Tom's interior, my interior (with stupid little car)

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