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Odd & Unusual Early Engine Designs


Guest Silverghost

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Guest Silverghost

Let's just see how many Odd & Unusual Early Engine Designs we can find ?

Many were tried~

Many were to costly to build~

Or an experiment that just failed !

Still others were outright dumb folly~

Let us see what you all can dig-up !

Photos of these engines would be great to post.

If not photos~

Descriptions are also appreciated~

I thought it might be interesting to see how many we can in fact find.

Just for Fun !

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)
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The Gobron Brillie is a great curiosity. There used to be a big 6 cylinder one in South Australia, that originally belonged to a state governor. And one of my friends still has a 2 cylider engine from a small car. Many opposed piston engines are two stroke; but from memory the Gobron is 4 stroke. I think the Gobron arrangement is elsewhere referred to as the Doxford system. There is a single crankshaft with 180 degree journals for very long conrods to the cross-head top pistons. I believe a lot of huge diesel ship engines were built like that, so it is probably not fair to write off the Gobron as an impractical oddity.

Don't forget the Only, which had considerable prowess in hillclimb competition.

It had a single very large bore and stroke cylinder, and vibration through the whole mechanism and occupants, caused by the very heavy piston reciprocating along the axis of the car would not appeal to many. Maybe the designer was also unbalanced.

We are fortunate that a 5 cylinder rotary Adams Farwell was restored by Harrahs. It would be most interesting to hear and see this one run. They may also have had a Compound. The front and rear cylinders of the engine were conventional; but the centre cylinder had a very large bore. This received the exhaust of the main cylinders, for the purpose of utilising more of the remaining energy. I doubt they pondered whether the energy recovered warranted the extra mechanical losses; but it probably would not need a muffler.

There was a 7 cylinder Macomber in the 1913 "Panama-America" race from Los Angeles to Sacramento. Also previously made as a 5 cylinder, these were a rotating barrel arrangement of cylinders, sometimes called a "swash-plate" engine. The car had some problems , but made the distance: It was not a race for beginners. Other cars were Pope Hartford, Alco, Mercers, Simplex, Lancia, and big racing FIAT. Some of the racing identities included Barney Oldfield, Billy Carlson, George Hill, and Rupert Jeffkins who helped Ralph DePalma push the dead Mercedes to the finish of the 1912 Indianapolis.

A less significant odd one was the V6 Detroit Air Cooled about 1917. The overhead valves were operated by pull-rods. The car was not a howling commercial success.

In the teens, Itala built cars of more than one size with rotary valve engines. One of the big ones survived in Melbourne until Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation decided to study its possible application in aircraft during the war. No-one knows whether they tested it to destruction, but it did not survive.

Duesenberg's first powered vehicle was a motorised bike with a rotary valve engine they built. You could not say it took them nowhere. They did try the idea again twice in the 1920's, with a rotary valve conversion of their 3 lire racing engine, and a 1.5 litre supercharged two stroke engine in one of their cars for Indianapolis which did not last the distance.

Just before Vauxhall were taken over by General Motors, they developed a six cylinder single sleeve valve model. Sir Harry Rickardo was a long-time friend of Percy Kidner of Vauxhall. He had realised the advantages of the Burt-McCollum sleeve valve engine during testing of engines for suitability for aircraft during WW1. Rickardo used single clyinder research engines to study problems and possibilities, and we owe him a lot. He was influential in the creation of the Napier Sabre fighter engine, which enabled figter aircraft to overtake the German flying bombs . The Sabre could produce more power reliably, for long periods, than special racing engines of other makers could from engines with a service life of around half an hour. The sleeves that Bristol and Napier used were special nitrided steel. Nobody else would put the developement effort into the single sleeve valve engine. They will run with a higher compression ratio than poppet valve engines, and therefore more efficiently; and because the continual relative movement of piston and sleeve do not promote breakdown of the lubricant film, you do not get the same wear at the top of ring travel in the cylinders. That sleeve valve Vauxhall did not fit General motors plans; but if they had looked harder at it we might have burned less fuel and driven better cars since then.

I shall describe the 1919-1923 6 cylinder, 6 litre Cuff-valve Peugeot for you in a subsequent post, when I can get my son to do scans and photos. Peugeot apparently say they built 180 and sold 120 of these, according to Jean-Pierre Loiellet, who has a restored car in France. I have enough to rebuild two cars. One of my friends had one in 1946-48 as an everyday car, when he also had a Tipo8 Isotta Fraschini and a 6 1/2litre ohc Hispano Suiza, and he compares the Peugeot more than favourably to these. I was told by two other former owners that the early cars with two wheel brakes would go much better than they would stop, and this did not improve their survival. I'll leave the description and exlanation till I have the images to send.

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Ivan, any pics or diagrams available for the rotary valves engines? Thanks.

There is a picture of the Duesenberg's 1899 "motor bicycle" on p6 of Don Butler's book on Auburn Cord Duesenberg. Print Quality is not flash, but better print of the same photo has been in ACD Newsletter. ACD Museum probably have the original. They were given a lot of photos by Augie's widow.

Photo of 183 racing engine with rotary valve head is on p59 of Fred Roe's book, Duesenberg; The Pursuit of Perfection. Photo front view of the 1926 91.5 cu inch

supercharged two-stroke racing car, with designer W.R.Beckman and driver Ben Jones standing behind it, is on p113 of the same book. The rotary valve engine is not exposed. Probably the best place to enquire further is ACD Museum.

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I am surprised there should apparently only be one surviving Frayer-Miller, Bob. I thought they had been reasonably popular in your north-east area.

(One of Ken Purdy's great friends, Sir Stirling Moss, was a judge for an elite car concourse event in the Exhibition Building in Melbourne resterday. I am not sure if he got down to inspect underneath cars: If he did, he surely would roll over to get up first on his hands and knees. He is only 81, which is not a bad start. A friend who was involved with organising the event told me that he is expected back here for the same event next year. I believe he often comes here for the F1 GP.)

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Thanks, I'll check into that. A friend built a rotary valve engine for a school project. I'd like to compare how the others looked.

I understand that the basic problems they had with rotary valves related to materials and sealing. We have coating technology today that might help with this now, possibly using ceramic or mixed metal/ceramic coatings. Grinding the outer surface of the rotating tube would be simple; and you could probably make the seal sections as rings that would not be hard to grind internally.

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RU22, what's up with the first one? Second looks like half a VW ?

#1 is a 4 port rotor automatic intake Piston is gear driven and it compresses the charge it may have been built to run on natural gas

AND is sitting next to my desk here ...... this is American any guesses?

#2 Please get your eyes tested :rolleyes:....... It's water cooled. Single over head cam

VW? This is American too! :cool:

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Guest De Soto Frank

Apparently the concept used in the Gobron-Brille engine is not dead - chec this out:

EcoMotors: Opposed piston, opposed cylinder engine ups power density — Autoblog

The Gobron-Brille design certainly is unique; hopefully this monstrosity did not have to spin very fast, as balance ( hah!) would definitely be an issue...

Looks like an off-shot of the double-acting steam-engine...

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Guest De Soto Frank
Guest De Soto Frank

As for a "compound" (secondary expansion) internal combustion engine, again, this (I believe ) is a concept borrowed from the Steam boys...

Compound, or "double-expansion" steam locomotives had a brief run of popularity during the period 1890-1910, but were found to be most effective only on slow-moving heavy freight engines, and most American RR's had their remaining compound steamers rebuild as "simple" single-expansion engines during the Tens and Teens.

Edited by De Soto Frank (see edit history)
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Have you ever heard of cars powered by compressed air or by carbonic acid?

The A.A.C.A. Gettysburg Region, in their latest newsletter, reprinted a few articles from the pioneer days, the late 1890's, that documented some unusual motive powers that were being tried for early cars. Gasoline, steam, and electricity weren't the only ones!

From The Horseless Age, Oct. 1898: The New Power Company of Trenton, N. J. built a car propelled by carbonic acid. The liguid gas was stored in the tubular frame of the vehicle and maintained at a steady temperature of 90 degrees by means of a flame generated by "sestalit," a patent fuel of the era. "The difficulty hitherto experienced with carbonic acid gas, when used for power, has been that the rapid evaporation would cause the valves to freeze. This difficulty the inventor claims to have overcome through a new valve which positively cuts off the current from the retaining cylinder at every stroke. One lever only is used for steering and regulating speed, while a second is required for reversing the motor."

From The Horseless Age, May 31, 1899: ANOTHER car powered by carbonic acid was developed by Charles Gibson of Jersey City, New Jersey. "The expansive power of carbonic acid is titanic, but two chief difficulties have stood in the way of its adoption for power purposes--the inability of inventors to control it and prevent the valves from freezing up owing to its too rapid expansion, and the high cost of the substance." Gibson's car had reportedly eliminated the problem of freezing valves, and the article thought that the acid could be manufactured in quantity reasonably if there was demand for it.

From The Horseless Age of October 1898: The Pneumatic Carriage Co. of New York City developed a car run on compressed air. "The carriage has seating accommodations for six passengers, weighs 2700 pounds, and will run 20 miles over ordinary good roads on one charge. ...The motor, of reciprocating type, weighs 400 pounds and operates at 350 revolutions, when the carriage is making 15 miles per hour [a top speed for that era]."

If you have the Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942, look up New Power; Gibson; and Pneumatic Carriage. The actual articles from The Horseless Age were considerably longer than the few quotes given above, but the Standard Catalog has good summaries.

These companies never went far, but it shows the great possibilities of invention!

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Plate #3,,,Green car,,was made by a fellow over in the Lynn G-E plant,,,Dick and John Dodge rescued it around 1946-49,,over in Bedford Mass,,Dick owned the Ford agency in Bedford,and was fire chief also,,,Has a very interesting 2 speed tranny,,car dated around "97 I think,,,its been years,,The engine cover/seat was cast alloy,,Very narrow,,maybee 3' tred,,,2pass tandem,,,Cheers Ben

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Guest Jim_Edwards

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Knight slip or sleeve valve engines that found their way into 1930's Willy's cars and sometimes referred to as Willy's-Knight.

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Guest Silverghost

The Air Force was working to design & actually Build a Nuclear powered Bomber...

The idea was unlimited flight time. Bombers could stay up for long periods.

They had a working design .

What a great idea that was ?

Instead B 52s were placed in orbit in strategic flight areas all the time 24/7 .

The Knight engine was really quite a good engine !

Un-restricted engine breathing because of the sleeve valve design.

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How about a 1702 CI X-24 made out of metal stampings.

Taylor_X24Cyl-Front.jpg

Taylor Engines, Inc., Oakland, California submitted a proposal on May12th 1942 to build such an engine to the Navy. It was suggested he build one bank for testing and he did. The contract was never issued but it was the forerunner of what became the 44 CI Crosley CoBra fabricated engine that was contracted by the government for WW-2 and after.

More pictures and details on the Crosley Club web site.

Crosley Engine Family Tree

I did a 4 part story on this engine and variants awhile back for the Crosley Club Quarterly.

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Guest De Soto Frank

So, how did the engineers resolve the tendency for the bottom cylinders to foul plugs on vertically-mounted radial engines? Were they "dry-sump" ?

Wasn't a problem with the WWI rotary engines, as they were two-cycle, the oil (castor oil) being mixed with the fuel.

Perhaps if Old Henry's X-motor was a two-stroke, it might have worked better ?

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Guest Silverghost

My Dad remembered the Castor Oil racing & aircraft days.

You could smell the fumes at the race tracks.

Many pilots & drivers would get violently sick from the exhaust fumes.

Pilots would often be grounded for several days after a flying sortie .

CASTROL Co. was one early supplier of this oil.

RE: WW I radial engines.

Several early builders had the entire engine rotate and the crankshaft remained stationary & fixed.

The Eagle Macomber engine co-designed by my great uncle Nelson "Miles" Macomber was one like this that had the cylinder assembly rotate.

As Ivan Saxton stated above it was a unique squash plate style engine that had variable displacment & thus variable compression ratios !

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)
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Guest De Soto Frank

"RE: WW I radial engines.

Several early builders had the entire engine rotate and the crankshaft remained stationary & fixed."

This is the distinction between a "Radial" and a "Rotary" engine back in the WW I era: both are "radial" configurations, but the "radial" has a fixed block and rotating crankshaft, where-as the "Rotary" engine has a stationary crank and the whole damned cylinder block revolves around it Gnome and le Rhone were two makers.... Holy gyroscopic force, Batman !

You can actually see & smell "Rotary" aviation engines in action at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York...

There was also a French or German motorcycle called the Megola that employed a five-cylinder rotary engine contained within the front (driving) wheel... a very odd machine indeed....

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The radials I am familiar with were all dry sump with scavenge pumps Frank. We never had consistent plug fouling prblems in any particular cylinder, though the plug gaps were only 12 thou. (Of course, we never fouled plugs on the Guiberson diesel radials.) I still have brand newWright Whirlwind supercharged R975 nine cylinder radials in boxes.

I doubt that Taylor X24 would foul plugs. It is just a concept model, is it not?

How would you service valves, for instance?

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Guest De Soto Frank

Thanks for the clarification, 1910 Anon;

I was under the impression that the early Rotaries were two-stroke...

I will have to do some reading-up on them...

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The Rootes TS3 (two-stroke 3 cylinder) knocker engine fitted to English Commer truck is an unusal design and has a unique bark when running. Commer TS3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opposed-piston engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited by 1939_buick
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As I said they actually only built one bank of the Taylor X-24 for testing. The picture I posted was just a mock up. It was intended to be dry sump. Here is a picture of the one bank on the test stand. It did pass all the tests with the performance they predicted. Even the crank was fabricated out of tubing and steel plate

Taylor-6cyl.jpg

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Thanks for the clarification, 1910 Anon;

I was under the impression that the early Rotaries were two-stroke...

I will have to do some reading-up on them...

Just looking at the engine drawings you do think that Frank. I had to revise L.J.K.Setright's book "The Power to Fly" to clarify this; and in the first of two chapters which deal with rotaries, he does not make this clear. (ISBN 0 04

338014 7). Setright authored some excellent technical books including one on early automobile designers; a wonderful example of a very intelligent lawyer doing ethical work.

Lamplough was responsible for one unsuccessful 2 stroke radial. LUCT in Italy made a 6 stroke, which apparently had some merit with the extra two movements of the piston providing additional internal cooling, which was always marginal otherwise in rotaries.

Farwell of Adams Farwell is credited with the first rotary in 1896, though Laurence Hargreaves worked out the principle for a compressed air engine 8 or 9 years earlier. (How much simpler and more efficient than the latter was Tesla's design?) There were even such oddities made as rotaries whose cylinders et cetera, and crankshaft revolved in opposite directions,----not necessarily at the same rpm!

The early radial engine that we must admire above all others is Charles Manly's. He was commissioned by Professor Langley to build this for his pioneer aircraft in 1902. The whole lot made a splash in the Potomac when Langley's launching trolley fouled a guide post on takeoff. It had a dry wieght of 125 pounds without radiator and coolant, and had a steady power output for 10 hours on test of 52.4 bhp at 950rpm.

Those blown 2 stroke Rootes diesels were excellent in their time. Some time ago I rebuilt the rocker pivot pins with Metco coating for a truck restorer near here, who has a Commer that you see on the road frequently. In the fifties one of my father's friends ran a couple of these with the first refrigerated vans carting perishables both ways between Adelaide and Darwin. After long service, Vic decided when he had a few days break that it might be a good idea to fit new rings. They put the engine back together with the original ones. Maybe GMC (Winton) should have chromed the bores of their 6-71 2 stroke diesels too?

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Ivan,,Do you know what Langley's engine used for ignition?? Pretty early for jump spark,,I noticed he used pull wires to open the valves,,Very light construction and ingenious to say the least,,,Cheers,,Ben

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I just looked up Charles Manly on Google, which tells much more than the answer to your question. Interestingly, he had to make his own plug leads by treadingsuccessively larger thin wall rubber tubes over the wire. (Today I would cheat by using Separan in water as super-lubricant. Separan is no longer made, but I still have a little. It is a poly acrylamide with average molecular weight of about 6 million. a few spoonfulls would clarify the water of a dam; and they used to use it for riot crowd control I understand. They could spread it around beforehand, and if they turnes the hoses on it, nobody could stand up if they moved. There must be something similar you can get to feed wires through conduits.

Manly's engine is in the Smithsoian, and there is a running replica often seen at Oshkosh.

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