dusenberg

hello everyone

several months ago i told everyone about an auction in riverside calif with some 16 cylinder cads,after attending the auction i told everone there was a dusenberg roadster there,some people doubted what i said,well the dusenberg is on ebay right now,same car,always follow up on these leads,(including myself),the auction is starting at 150,ooo, i dont know if its the same owner or not,this will teach me a good lesson on following threw with these leads,so many times i just give up and say oh well,its oh well hell this time,just thought id let everyone know

dave

Here is the item number...110589200460

I Am stunned !

This is the type of find every call collector dreams of finding!

I'd bet that this doesn't last very long~

Hard to believe that this big "DUESEY" had not been found and rescued decades ago.

Any history on this car ?

Chassis # Engine # etc.

If we had any numbers we could trace it's history !

This looks like one that Randy Ema & Jay Leno should snap-up !

Randy Ema is the man with the parts & patterns

to bring this sad beast alive again.

The restoration & parts fabrication price would cost far more than restored Dusenbergs are selling for in today's market or economy!

Anyone know more hisory on this project car ?

What a big dream of a lifetime project !

BUT~

Well Worth the effort !

I remember years ago Tom Crook(always thought he should use a different name) a dealer in Washington had a Duesy J engine for sale for 100K

I'm sure Randy knows the car. It would be impossible for a west coast car to elude the known roster of Dusenbergs. I don't follow the J prices, but if the car finished is worth say 850 K (Is that low?) it would run an easy 350 K to restore it if it is all there, and it looks like the new owner will be looking for some parts. I'm sure he will get to know Randy well. It's almost impossible to restore a car and make money on it, but if purchased right who knows? Ed

I think I've said this before, but there has not been an undiscovered Duesenberg J find in over 50 years. Randy, Fred Roe, a few other guys know where all the cars are. It is possible that there is an engine and parts that perhaps they don't know about?

850k is the price for a complete restored car with a decently styled body & known history. Reconstructed parts packages (especially with reproduction bodies) bring much less.

I want to also point out that as a general rule, eBay ads for desirable cars with sparse hard to see pictures, sellers with next to no feedback and little description are almost always scams.

Don't forget that if it has a cracked head you can get one at PEP BOYS or some other supplier for only 200K. It's going take deep pockets to drive this one. Then again if the transmission is missing, it will probably never move under it's own power again, as I don't believe they are making them. As AJ pointed out, payment will probably be made to an off shore account!

link:

Other Makes: eBay Motors (item 110589200460 end time Sep-28-10 15:31:20 PDT)

Can't be to much of a scam...He put his phone number out there.....

Well, don't want to start a big discussion about secrecy and can't be true and such, but.....

I know of a guy who had a Duesenberg sedan, he purchased from the original owner a number of years ago. After someone tried to steal it out of his garage, he shut up about it and wouldn't let anyone see it for 20 years or so. Then, he sold it back to the original owner's family that he bought it from, and to my knowledge they've kept mum about it.

I contacted Randy about it, and there were some back stories with the car that should have identified it as one he knows about. He wasn't aware of the car.

There're millions of garages out there, and "barn finds" every day, so don't be positive that every detail for every Deusenberg is known......

I think I've said this before, but there has not been an undiscovered Duesenberg J find in over 50 years.

I think I'm with you on this...Sure, there may be piles of parts somewhere that are not known...But I don't think a car exists that is not known.

Pretty good rundown on this car on ACD forum.

FWIW...Thread title is mispelled. Correct spelling is Duesenberg

I'm going to crush some hopes and dreams here. This isn't an unknown project, although I was unaware of its current whereabouts until this auction.

The car is pictured in better days in Fred Roe's book, "Duesenberg: The Pursuit of Perfection," on p. 245 (middle photograph).

From what I can gather, the car is engine #J-226, frame 2161 (ex-J-138), and firewall 2520 (ex-J-491X). What I mean by this is that engine, frame, and firewall all come from different cars. Randy Ema believes the frame is shortened.

A friend in Canada called the seller and was informed that the project is missing, among other things:

> all gauges but tach and speedo

> front axle

> transmission

> torque tube

> rear axle

> at least 3 wheels

> usable Duesenberg "goodies" such as original headlights

He also talked to Randy Ema who confirmed the engine number and that the body is from a Lincoln.

Happy bidding, brave souls.

P.S. I will not stop believing that Duesenbergs are still out there in barns until we have the fate of every last one verifiably documented. Makes life interesting!

P.S. I will not stop believing that Duesenbergs are still out there in barns until we have the fate of every last one verifiably documented. Makes life interesting!

I TOTALLY agree with you. I find rare and hidden cars and stuff quite often. There are some rare ones still hidden from our prying old car eyes.

What a project car indeed !

A real "Basket-case" if I ever saw one.

From what we can see of the body ~

Does anyone here have any clue as to the coachbuilder ?

I have heard Pierce-Arrow, Lincoln,

But what coachuilder?

Does anyone know of other "Project Model "J" Duesenbergs that are still in this day and time in this sort of unrestored condition ?

I don't know about new previously unknown & un-descovered Duesy finds~

I would guess the chances of that are pretty slim~

Guys like Randy have tracked them well over the decades.

But:

I bet there are cars that WERE known to exist in the 50s-70s that have not been seen or are accounted for today.

People drop out of car clubs, the car is stored, they move, get ill or pass-away and the car goes missing yet again.

Look at what has happened to this "J" since the Roe book of the 1950s !

Engines, bodys, and parts from these model "J" s have been , and still are, swapped all the time.

Things change and disappear with the passage of time~

Just for fun~

What do you think this "Basketcase" will eventually sell for?

Who will buy it ?

A dealer/restorer like Randy Ema ?

Do you think it will be parted-out ?

Somehow some way these parts will be saved!

The engine alone is quite valuable despite it's present condition !

Still it will be interesting to see where this one goes eventually & what happens to it !

Brad - In a post(#14) just prior to your #16 Chris Summers posted he had talked to a friend in Canada whom had spoke to Randy and it was confirmed that the body was in fact a Lincoln. Little escapes in this wonderful world of communication.--Bob

Did lincoln always build all their own coachwork for their big cars in this time period in house?

No. Your question is still unanswered. Who is the coachbuilder?

I'll leave that to the Lincoln guys.

Regarding the frame, if it is in fact shortened, in the '60's or early '70's Duesenberg designer Herb Newport was working up a short wheelbase (SSJ replica?) for a Judge (North?) in Maryland, and I believe Herb mentioned shortening the frame. I don't think the car was completed and have no idea what became of the project. Could this be it?

I know Chris feels there may still be one undiscovered Model J lurking in Europe and that would be cool for sure. I'm going to stand by my claim (which isn't mine it's what has been told to me by Randy and Fred) that there has not been an undiscovered Model J in 50 years.

Btw, the going rate for a reasonably complete Model J "kit" car is 150 to 200k depending on completeness and condition. This project is missing the front axle which is literally unobtainable.

Dave, the "Northport SSJ" was completed and was still in the family's collection last I heard. It looks a lot like an SSJ but the body is made of wood, skiff-style.

The eBay project's shortened frame is, I believe, 2161, formerly the partner of engine J-138 and a Holbrook sedan body.

Did lincoln always build all their own coachwork for their big cars in this time period in house?

Some of the coachbuilders to use Lincoln chasses were:

Willoughby

Judkins

Waterhouse

Locke

There were probably others...

Did this "Project/Parts Collection" ever sell on eBay

If so...

For what Price ?

Perhaps the brave buyer can post on your project/basket case thread, Brad. Wish them luck but it will be a major one for sure.

A small circle may know the whereabouts of all or virtually all Duesnebergs out there but to me if one surfaces after 50 years, like the one found in South Boston or the one Leno found a couple years ago comes up, in complete, untouched condition, that does make for an exciting story - "undiscovered enough" for me anyway!

Love those Cotter barn books...

Steve:

I too love these sort of projects.

The strange thing about this project is it's present condition.

I spoke to Chris Sommers the ACD historian about this project, & others, a few weeks back.

He stated that in the 1950s this model "J" was complete and running with this exact later Lincoln body. There is an extant photo of it in a famous early book.

Now one has to wonder how and why this great car was ever stripped and left to get into it's present condition over these years ?

By the later 1950s these cars were no longer being junked.

By this time early collectors were searching them out for restorations.

I could possibly understand after all these years if it still remained unrestored.~

But pulled-apart and sitting like this I just cannot believe !

With vital parts like the gearbox and front axel now missing ?

It may possibly have been used as a parts car.

STILL~

It still would be a great restoration project~

But a costly one indeed !

This chassis needs to find a good home and finally get restored.

It does not deserve this sad fate !

didn't sell... $150100. (below reserve.)

Considering that the kit car that RM was selling at Hershey brought 75k I would say that 150k for this project is spot on.

There was a guy in the 50s that my Father knew in the North East US that used to race these great cars on hill climbs.

He used to beat the living daylights out of these cars.

He also "Repaired" them & "Flipped them"

One of his cars had a White truck gearbox in it !

He blew-up the original gearbox .

I remember a nice restored open custom coachbuit Murphy selling for $32 K in the late 1960s !

It was considered very high-priced at that time !

Now that's price inflation for you !

.

I assume you mean Jim Hoe?

There was a guy in the 50s that my Father knew in the North East US that used to race these great cars on hill climbs.

He used to beat the living daylights out of these cars.

He also "Repaired" them & "Flipped them"

One of his cars had a Mack truck gearbox in it !

He blew-up the original gearbox .

I remember a nice restored open custom coachbuit Murphy selling for $32 K in the late 1960s !

It was considered very high-priced at that time !

Now that's price inflation for you !

.

It was indeed Jim Hoe .

He was the go-to guy for those cars in the early days back east here.

He did not baby his cars one bit.

I remember vividly how he beat the living daylights out of the hill-climb car.

There must have been at least dozens or more of these model "J" s that went through his ownership & shop in the 1950s-early 60s.

"Jim Hoe Sportscar-Garage"

I remember a supercharged "J" there in Jim's garage with a shattered cast & polished aluminum rear manifold pipe.

A back-fire from a leaking intake valve blew the cast aluminum pipe apart !

It looked like a a pipe bomb had gone off under the hood .

Henry Austin Clark told my Father about Jim's shop !

We would often visit Austie at his great museum complex.

We visited Jim Hoe's shop/garage several times as Dad was looking for a model "J" at this time !

Dad owned lots of great Full Classics over the years~

However an open model "J" was his dream car...

Sadly:

Dad never did get his model "J" !

He passed-away at 91 1/2 just months ago !

Still driving & sharp as a tack !

Jim Hoe lived two towns over from me, sadly I never stopped in to see what he had going on back in the day. A friend did buy the contents of the shop after it had been well picked over, I got this J exhaust pipe tip from him. Right after WWII three brothers bought a Shell Station in Branchville, Ct. there were cars stored in the basement and they were part of the sale. Jim Hoe bought two Dusenberg J's for $700.00..................... $350.00 per car. The Hill Climb car he built also raced at Watkins Glenn. That car came from Long Island, and had a large sedan body on it. As the story goes Jim asked the fellow he bought it from if he could borrow an ax. Within a few hours the body was in the guys yard and he drove the chassis home and converted it into his race car. Leo Gephart listed the car in Hemmings 25-30 years ago, wonder if it stayed as a race car or was rebodied?

Jim Hoe was never really a show-car kind of guy.

No museum pieces for him.

He actually wanted to DRIVE & Race his model "J" "Sports-cars" .

Yes that was Jim's term for them !

If anyone ever put the mighty model "J" engine to it's test limit it was Jim Hoe.

Perhapps the very reason that many model "J" Dusenbergs today have had their engines swapped-out for other "J" engine numbers is because of Jim Hoe and his many friends !

As stated earlier these cars were not worth that much in the early 1950s so why should he not race them !

And race them he did !

I wonder where all the Dusenbergs are today that once came through his "Sports Car Garage" ?

I also bet he would be a bit sad to see that few, if any, are really driven like Jim thought they were designed and built to be driven !

Sadly I will never again see a place like Jim Hoe's "Sports Car-Garage" !

He had quite a large property in Westin Ct. He had a 6 or 8 bay garage on about 10 acres ! Shelves with tons of Dusenberg parts.

He would often come to hill-climb events here in Pa. That's were Dad & I saw him race several times !

R. I. P. JIM HOE

A few years ago a local man tried to sell 2 restored WW1 era Indian motocycles on Ebay. They refused the ad, saying it must be a scam since the bikes were not known to any Indian club, collector, expert, book or list. But they were real, 2 brothers had them, they bought them in the fifties and had them restored in the seventies. I know the mechanic who rebuilt the engines, a tool and die maker and antique motorcycle collector who did antique motorcycle engines on the side.

The owner's name was Elliot and the bikes were in a private collection in Bowmanville Ontario Canada.

So, it is possible for rare finds to turn up. These bikes were known to a few local enthusiasts but were never shown publicly. So, is there a chance an unknown Duesenberg might surface? I wouldn't bet one will, but I wouldn't bet my life one won't.

Hopes & Dreams like that keep all us collectors hunting~

A few years ago a local man tried to sell 2 restored WW1 era Indian motocycles on Ebay. They refused the ad, saying it must be a scam since the bikes were not known to any Indian club, collector, expert, book or list.

Does anyone actually believe that Ebay researches all of their ads at all, let alone this extensively? Indians aren't exactly Bugatti Royales. There are many of them out there that no one knows about

In the early 80s, one of my club members brought a friend out to our club . his name was Walt Rieber. Walt was a retired railroad mechanic and a very resourceful old car mechanic as well. He showed a picture of himself in front of a Duesenberg J sedan that he had bought for the princely sum of sixty dollars in the late 30s in Philadelphia where he lived. He said he drove it for a while but couldn't afford the gas and maintenance and he couldn't sell it so it was junked. Walt and the picture are long gone so we'll never know for sure.

A few years ago a local man tried to sell 2 restored WW1 era Indian motocycles on Ebay. They refused the ad, saying it must be a scam since the bikes were not known to any Indian club, collector, expert, book or list.

Does anyone actually believe that Ebay researches all of their ads at all, let alone this extensively? Indians aren't exactly Bugatti Royales. There are many of them out there that no one knows about

+1 I found that a bit unbelievable that eBay would have the capacity (or desire) to do that.

That sure sounds like a great eBay Urban Legend. For the record you can build just about every Pre 1910 Indian with a fat checkbook balance.

+1 I found that a bit unbelievable that eBay would have the capacity (or desire) to do that.