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Showfield Etiquette ?


Guest DonRich90

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Guest DonRich90

I have a friend who just joined AACA and will have his Buick Riviera on the showfield at Hershey for judging for the first time this year. Last night we were discussing some of the rules and the preparation of his car for the show. One of his concerns is finding out what faults the judges may find so that he can work on having them corrected.

Even though I have attended Hershey as a spectator for a number of years, I have little or no knowledge of the judging process other than what I have read in Antique Automobile. I would appreciate any comments/suggestions on what an owner should or shouldn't do and what discussions with the judges are appropriate or inappropriate while the car is being judged. I know the judges cannot disclose the numerical score but can they or will they point out or discuss what faults they may have found ?

I know my friend is anxious about this new experience and hopes to do well but, he doesn't want to interfere with the judges or the judging process or breech any showfield etiquette.

Thanks.

Don

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Guest quadfins

Get one of the judging manuals. I think they are also on line. Find the page that has the sample judging score sheet. Make a copy, and then use it to go around the car as if you were a judge. Better still, make two copies, and have a friend join the fun. (Maybe an ex-friend, soon). Be brutally honest, then work on the fixes. Owners usually know the flaws better than judges, although we can also "miss" obvious things that were are used to seeing. That's what the ex-friend will be good for.

Talk to judges and those familiar with similar cars BEFORE you take the car to a meet, in order to get tips. DON'T talk to the judges during the process (except the usual pleasantries).

When it is all over, and the damage is done, your friend might approach the judges (if he can find them) to help evaluate the car for improvement.

I've found that the judges are usually quite fair and forgiving, except with real obvious stuff.

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What Jim said, except that I don't think the judges would talk with your "friend" afterward. The best thing is to find someone familiar with AACA judging, and who is familiar with the same type of car, and have them look at it well in advance of the meet. That way "dumb" mistakes can be quickly pointed out, like bolt heads, valve stem covers, non-stock accessories, etc.

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I know the judges cannot disclose the numerical score but can they or will they point out or discuss what faults they may have found ?

I know my friend is anxious about this new experience and hopes to do well but, he doesn't want to interfere with the judges or the judging process or breech any showfield etiquette.

Thanks.

Don

The only faults that will be pointed out (by the team captain) is a major deduction(s). Talking to the judges is a no no, however occasionally there is some good natured ribbing and joking that goes on. Have someone that really knows the vehicle brand to give it a good detailed look over will help, along with familiarizing yourself with the AACA rules that are online.

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If he has any questions about whether or not something on the car is correct for that year and model, and since he is showing a Buick, he can get the name of the technical expert(s) for that year of Buick Riviera from inside the back cover of any edition of the Buick Bugle.

And of course, if he JOINS the Buick Club of America, he will soon be getting his own copies of the Bugle.... :)

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Guest DonRich90

Thanks guys. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I'll pass these on to my friend, Ron. He does belong to the Riviera Owners Association and Buick Owners of Maryland so they may a good source of help. I sold him the Riviera in good original condition several years ago but he has really brought the car up to a real nice show standard. I'm not much help cause I'm a Ford man ('66 Ford Custom 500) with not much knowledge of GM cars.

Thanks again.

Don

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Did your friend join a local Region or Chapter as well as the National? If so he may be able to find a judge within the local club that would help him as a newcomer. :) If not he could still contact the closest local Region/Chaoer and see if someone will help.

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Guest DonRich90
Did your friend join a local Region or Chapter as well as the National? If so he may be able to find a judge within the local club that would help him as a newcomer. :) If not he could still contact the closest local Region/Chaoer and see if someone will help.

I believe he is going to join the Harford Region in Maryland.

Don

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If you can find an AACA judge in your area have them look it over. Even if they are not up on the make they can point out any easy to fix problems that will loose points. I did this for a friend before Canandaigua. He spent a weekend doing the cheap and easy things. Still had some expensive points to loose but pulled off a 1st Jr.

I would say close to half the 2nds and 3rds I have judged could at least make the points for a 1st with less than $200 and a weekend of work.

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Guest Skyking

When I attended the Macungie meet two weeks ago, the Metropolitan Owners Club Of North America (MOCNA) held it's Regional there. At this Regional, being an even year, we were offered to have our cars judged. They would only be judged on even years.

I decided to have my '60 Metropolitan judged, along with 3 other owners. Our club uses the 400 point system. The cars are strictly judged on originality. My score was 399 1/2 out of 400. Needless to say it earned a Gold.

Also, while I was at Macungie I was told by a few people that I should have it judged at an AACA meet. I was also told that the AACA doesn't judge on originality.

My question is, why would I want to display a badge on my car if it's not judged on originality???

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Skyking,

Don't believe everything you are told. I think that you were misinformed or what was said was misunderstood.

From the judging guidelines here is the General Policy of AACA Judging:

C. GENERAL POLICY

The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging. The end result of the accurate and

honest evaluation of a vehicle by a judging

team will be the proper determination

of the deserved award for the owner’s efforts.

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If you can find an AACA judge in your area have them look it over. Even if they are not up on the make they can point out any easy to fix problems that will loose points. I did this for a friend before Canandaigua. He spent a weekend doing the cheap and easy things. Still had some expensive points to loose but pulled off a 1st Jr.

I would say close to half the 2nds and 3rds I have judged could at least make the points for a 1st with less than $200 and a weekend of work.

This is so true. I can't tell you over the years how many vehicles I have judged have lost points for non-authentic license plate frames and for a non-authentic license plate on the front. They gave those points away. Also, take a look at the antenna(s). If they are filthy clean them. If they are pitted replace them. Again, points given away. And the headlights should match. A vehicled I judged at Blacksburg had four different brands of headlights. It is one point deduction per non-matching headlight. Again, points given away.

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Guest billybird

I have never spoken to a judge on the showfield unless they spoke to me first; then only the minimum amount of words I can get by with. I always stand about 15-20 feet away while they judge my car and watch in case they want to ask a question. I do not walk back over to my car until the judges are on their way to the next car. Most of the time, the team captain will thank you for bringing the car when they are finished. Sometimes the captain will introduce themselves and inform you they are ready to judge your car. One thing I can say about AACA is this: After attending over 30 National meets I have never been offended, mistreated, snapped at, or talked down to, smarted off at ,etc. by any National judge. I think that speaks well of the judges training programs.

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I was also told that the AACA doesn't judge on originality.

My question is, why would I want to display a badge on my car if it's not judged on originality???

Of course they do judge originality. Your question is likely that AACA does not/cannot judge "numbers matching" and decode casting numbers, paint codes, and such. So a marque club like your Metropolitan club can indeed have more rigid guidelines because they know all the "numbers," but an AACA show still rewards authenticity and good restoration quality.

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I have never spoken to a judge on the showfield unless they spoke to me first; then only the minimum amount of words I can get by with. I always stand about 15-20 feet away while they judge my car and watch in case they want to ask a question. I do not walk back over to my car until the judges are on their way to the next car. Most of the time, the team captain will thank you for bringing the car when they are finished. Sometimes the captain will introduce themselves and inform you they are ready to judge your car. One thing I can say about AACA is this: After attending over 30 National meets I have never been offended, mistreated, snapped at, or talked down to, smarted off at ,etc. by any National judge. I think that speaks well of the judges training programs.

You should be teaching a class during the meeting for owners. Someone like you is every Team Captain's and judge's dream owner. :) We strive to be "professional" in manner and yet put the owner's at ease. We are not there to nitpick a vehicle. We are there to support the hobby with our time and efforts. We want to reward owners that have done it right with the award they seek.

Every owner, whether they get the award they were seeking or not, should leave the show field feeling that they were fairly treated.

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Guest Skyking
Skyking,

Don't believe everything you are told. I think that you were misinformed or what was said was misunderstood.

I have seen some Mets with the incorrect color on the convertible top and the incorrect interior and received a Senior. :confused::confused: HOW? These are big errors! How is this judged on originality???

It's either right or wrong,...... no in-between. You can't compare apples to oranges. They don't match.

Besides, how many AACA judges really know a Metropolitan when most owners don't.

I've been in this hobby for close to 40 years and seen this example many times.............it's frustrating to say the least.

Edited by Skyking (see edit history)
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Skyking,

A car does not have to be perfect to receive a Senior Award. It takes at least 375 out of 400 points. So, perhaps those were the only areas receiving deductions, or perhaps the judges did not know enough about Metropolitans. Cars that are not very common do pose a problem in judging. If the judges do not know, the owner may very well get the benefit of the doubt.

"Besides, how many AACA judges really know a Metropolitan when most owners don't." If the owners don't know the cars, there is the need for some education somewhere.

If you would like to see the situation improved, you could participate in AACA Judging, educate the judges, and you could even develop a Continuing Judges Education course on Metropolitans. I am sure that lots of judges would be happy to learn more about Metropolitans.

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Mistakes do happen, that is the truth of it. If something does not look "wrong" to the team, and there isn't a judge on the team that knows the color, top, etc. is wrong, then chances are items will not be questioned. We don't ask for documentation for every item on every vhicle. Not an excuse, just an explanation of what can happen.

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Skyking said "many AACA judges really know a Metropolitan when most owners don't. I've been in this hobby for close to 40 years and seen this example many times.............it's frustrating to say the least."

MCHinson replied " If you would like to see the situation improved, you could participate in AACA Judging, educate the judges, and you could even develop a Continuing Judges Education course on Metropolitans. I am sure that lot's

of judges would be happy to learn more about Metropolitans."<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Both these Senior Members of this Forum are right. If both participate in the judging process the whole Show thing gets better. Like this Forum, judging

at show is a voluntary process that requires input from people who know.

The more involved we get, the better the result.

While I've never entered a point show, I'm appreciative of those who do and especially those who drive many miles at their own expense to judge others vehicles. Each time they do it they learn something new they can share a future shows. Hopefully they'll learn from knowledgeable owners who are also their to help.

With 38 years in this hobby, I'm no expert on Metropolitans (Even though I learn to drive in one) but I do know enough to help others with Early Ford V8's. Notice I said help, judging is a group effort, that involves learning

every time.

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Guest Skyking

If you would like to see the situation improved, you could participate in AACA Judging, educate the judges, and you could even develop a Continuing Judges Education course on Metropolitans. I am sure that lots of judges would be happy to learn more about Metropolitans.

Matthew, this is something worth looking into when I retire. Right now with limited vacation time, it would be hard. Thank you, & Paul for your replies.....

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I have seen some Mets with the incorrect color on the convertible top and the incorrect interior and received a Senior. :confused::confused: HOW? These are big errors! How is this judged on originality???

It's either right or wrong,...... no in-between. You can't compare apples to oranges. They don't match.

Besides, how many AACA judges really know a Metropolitan when most owners don't.

I've been in this hobby for close to 40 years and seen this example many times.............it's frustrating to say the least.

Perhaps the color of top and/or interior were incorrect. You would know this. However, the person who used this "incorrect" material may not have been able to get the original any more. I believe if a good attempt was made to recreate the original as closely as possible, (albeit incorrect) then allowances in judging are acceptable. I'm not encouraging using incorrect items, but most likely the judges thought the owner's choice of materials were close enough to the original color and/or material.

It's good that you know what is correct, and it would be even better if you could share your knowledge with the AACA family.

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After attending over 30 National meets I have never been offended, mistreated, snapped at, or talked down to, smarted off at ,etc. by any National judge. I think that speaks well of the judges training programs.

Our very first meet (Johnstown, 2001) we had an interior judge get in our truck, lay across the floorboards and look under our dash. At the time we didn't know any different, but I can guarantee that it will never happen again.

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Our very first meet (Johnstown, 2001) we had an interior judge get in our truck, lay across the floorboards and look under our dash. At the time we didn't know any different, but I can guarantee that it will never happen again.

Hopefully the Team Captain took care of cautioning that judge to never do something like that again. As you now know, as a judge and Team Captain, that is part of the job, to guide the judges on the team.

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re: "the AACA doesn't judge on originality."

I'm the one that told Bob that and I'll stand by it with a few examples. Before I do however, let me say that AACA is a vital part of keeping the old car hobby alive, especially the small group that is doing its best to preserve old cars and their history. I am a member of AACA and try to bring a car to at least one show a year. I have not been a judge although I have attended and made what I hope were constructive comments at judging school. I try to thank the team captain at each meet for taking the time to judge my car. I consider it a well thought out program, but you have to understand the rules, what the car is being judged on and the knowledge base of the judges. As one more point of reference, both of my Mets have Gold Medals from the Met club (MOCNA) judging and both have AACA Grand National Senior Tabs.

First some comments on the rules. The intent of AACA is the "preserving of antique automobiles". Two AACA awards are given, HPOF to recognize unmolested, unrestored cars and the AACA judged awards. The objective of the judged awards is to "evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory." My statement, "Does not judge on originality" means that since the AACA judges can not be expected to be experts in all cars, it is not surprising that they would judge more on workmanship and the use of period correct hardware and may unknowingly overlook inaccuracies in the restoration.

If you look at the cars at an AACA Grand National Meet, you can tell that the owners have been encouraged to restore their cars to be as close to perfect as possible. These are very pretty cars and for the most part are cars that the owners, using pride and knowledge, have brought back to as close to original as possible. It could be argued, that there is some onus on the owners to be sure the car is original. On the other hand, the marque judges are expected to know all about correct bends in dipsticks and which wheels should be riveted and which welded and tend to judge 50% on authenticity and 50% on condition. MOCNA Gold cars are not necessarily pretty, in fact an original car rich with patina could win a MOCNA gold. MOCNA and AACA are two different types of judging.

I have never seen a restored aluminum kick plate, that plate that goes on top of the rocker panel, under the door. If someone can tell me how to straighten and repair one to look like new, please send me instructions. I can clean one up and make it look pretty good, but of the 15 or 20 old ones I have, the best one cleaned up the best I could do would probably result in 1 or 2 of the maximum 3 points each deduction. Not able to clean them up to be perfect, I bought new ones and put them on my car. Later at a MOCNA event, a judge explained how the bead did not run around three sides and they were wrong. I think the $400 repops look the best and leave them on the car. (so I can slam my seat belt in the door and dent them).

As I was working my Mets through the system, I could never understand where I was losing points for my bumpers until I attended a judging school and learned about matching bumper bolts. 1 point each. I returned to a school later, armed with factory parts book drawings showing that the correct rear Met bumper bolts have carriage bolt heads on the outside edges and hex head bolts toward the center. They do not match and I hope the judging on them is now correct.

There are a lot of other things like carpet, seat fabric, paint break lines, door panel colors, differential paint, under body paint and color, plug wires, and engine colors that will generate a lot of discussion. I would doubt that many AACA judges understand which features of these items are correct, making it hard for them to judge on authenticity. In some cases like engine color, there is no universal agreement even with the MOCNA judges. There is another category of authenticity like date codes that is just not reviewed in AACA and is understood but not seriously reviewed by MOCNA.

So there are things like kick plates that are not original but you can make them nice enough to be overlooked, there are things that are right like missmatched bumper bolts and you can educate judges to get the judging correct and there is a third category of things you can chose to do your way and take your lumps. Mine is one of the cars you saw with a wrong color top. I think a red and white Met with a black top is ugly. This is one of those black and white deals and trust me, I have thought of putting this car in a crusher, but after some thought its good enough to keep. Not perfect, but good enough.

re: Why would I want to display a badge on my car if it's not judged on originality???

I display my grill badges with pride, knowing that I put a car together that was judged by my peers, human beings working to the best of their ability, to fairly represent what a brand new Met might have looked like.

As a driver having a car judged in AACA, it is your responsibility to do the best you can to understand AACA. Read the judging manual, have your car judged by a couple of friends that are AACA judges, and do your best to have your car "restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle". In the case of your car, just load it on the trailer and bring it to Hershey this fall or to Stowe next spring. You'll do ok, even if your kick plates are not original.

Bill

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Bill,

Please re-read the General Policy of AACA Judging....

"C. GENERAL POLICY

The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging. The end result of the accurate and

honest evaluation of a vehicle by a judging

team will be the proper determination

of the deserved award for the owner’s efforts."

I do not know how you can intrepret that as "not judged on originality".

I do not know anything about MOCNA judging. I suspect that it has some similarity to Model A Ford Club of America and/or Model A Restorer's Club Juding.

I would be the first to admit that AACA Judges, in general, are not going to know as much about Metropolitans as MOCNA Judges. There may be some AACA Judges who know a lot about them and certainly some who know very little about them. Feel free to read my earlier comments on this issue.

I would encourage you to actually get involved in AACA judging. Simply attending judging school cannot really give you a full understanding of the AACA judging system. Actual experience in any subject is a great teacher.

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..... Actual experience in any subject is a great teacher.

As is the owner of a vehicle, that has unique things about it, that willingly shares their knowledge with the Team Captain. And through that exchange five people walk away from that vehicle with valuable knowledge that they then share with the next team they serve on that comes across a vehicle like it or maybe even the same vehicle at another meet.

As judges we go to a Judging School every year. Most of us go to at least one CJE per year, sometimes two if we hit a milestone :). More and more of us are taking "extra" CJEs to further our basic knowlege. But even those can't teach us everything about every year, make and model we come across. We need owners that have this knowledge to share it with us.

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As is the owner of a vehicle, that has unique things about it, that willingly shares their knowledge with the Team Captain. And through that exchange five people walk away from that vehicle with valuable knowledge that they then share with the next team they serve on that comes across a vehicle like it or maybe even the same vehicle at another meet.

That's not my experience. In the 10 or 15 or so times I've had a car judged, I was there when the judges came, said hello, then stood back or was very politely ushered away from my car. I think I was asked about a feature on my car once. They finish, we often have a chance to exchange pleasantries and it is over.

I have had a judge return after judging, but it is rare for a judge to show much curiosity about a Met. And I don't blame them. They have a couple hours after their thankless job is done and they are not going to spend it reviewing Mets when they could be looking at wheels a bit higher up the food chain.

Bill

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I have been following this thread and have nothing to add to the judge - presenter aspects BUT would like to see a discussion on Showfield Etiquette as it relates between the spectators and the cars / car owners.

Whenever I see a guy with a big belt buckle, a lady with a metal trimmed handbag, or just about anyone with a backpack, I cringe. I cringe a LOT when my car is at a show. Fingerprints are par for the course and easily washed off, but a swing from a backpack where the person does not know how far behind him/her it extends is not so easily taken car of.

The spectators will not be the ones reading this forum, so it is futile.....

As a fellow show car owner I share your concern 110%.

You forgot tom mention about spectators (or children of spectators) leaning in to look at the interior or engine of a show car while eating or drinking food, or spectators that bring pets onto the show field with chain leashes who are less than careful, or spectators that smoke around show cars whose cigarette ashes find their way onto or into a show car.

I believe that MUCH MORE needs to be done by the AACA to educate Spectators about CORRECT Show Field Etiquette. Unfortunately, that is one area that has been lacking for quite some time. In order for that message to be consistent from Meet to Meet, I suggest that AACA National put together signs that display Show Field Etiquette Guidelines and loan these signs to Regions/Chapters that Host National Meets.

Yes, I realize that these signs present some challenges (ie how many signs to have made, where to place them, etc). Those challenges can be fine tuned once an initial set of signs have been made and used at a few meets.

Hopefully AACA National will take this under advisement and have some sort of Spectator education in place for the 2011 Show season.

Edited by charlier (see edit history)
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As a fellow show car owner I share your concern 110%.

You forgot tom mention about spectators (or children of spectators) leaning in to look at the interior or engine of a show car while eating or drinking food, or spectators that bring pets onto the show field with chain leashes who are less than careful, or spectators that smoke around show cars whose cigarette ashes find their way onto or into a show car.

I believe that MUCH MORE needs to be done by the AACA to educate Spectators about CORRECT Show Field Etiquette. Unfortunately, that is one area that has been lacking for quite some time. In order for that message to be consistent from Meet to Meet, I suggest that AACA National put together signs that display Show Field Etiquette Guidelines and loan these signs to Meets.

Yes, I realize that these signs present some challenges (ie how many signs to have made, where to place them, etc). Those challenges can be fine tuned once an initial set of signs have been made and used at a few meets.

Hopefully AACA National will take this under advisement and have some sort of Spectator education in place for the 2011 Show season.

I have to agree with that as well. In addition to the above mentioned, my car has very plush aqua velour seats. For some reason, many people feel the need to "pet" my seats. I spent countless hours and weekends shampooing the seats, which were originally filthy and now spotless. I don't care if people are laughing that my car has the windows rolled up and doors locked when it is sitting next to a million dollar Duesenberg that is wide open. I do not need to be shampooing mustard, ice cream, sticky doughnut residue or anything else out of it.

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re: "the AACA doesn't judge on originality."

As I was working my Mets through the system, I could never understand where I was losing points for my bumpers until I attended a judging school and learned about matching bumper bolts. 1 point each. I returned to a school later, armed with factory parts book drawings showing that the correct rear Met bumper bolts have carriage bolt heads on the outside edges and hex head bolts toward the center. They do not match and I hope the judging on them is now correct.

Bill

The statement in bold above is very important when having a unique car (Is a Met, unique?:)) judged at an AACA Event. I guess we do not advertise that fact to car owners. Maybe something new to be shared at the "drivers meeting" at the next event?

I enjoyed working with Bill Lytle's judging team in Canandaigua (I'll never learn to spell this Pat) this year. Surprising to me were the number of show car owners that had their supporting documents handy for the inevitable questions that arose on certain cars. Surely these fellows had learned from experience that if you have an option that is unique, you'd better have a document to back it up. Actually one fellow had the book in his hand, proud to show us that he was on the ball, with that knowing smile on his face. It was a fun day for me.

So, I guess experience with our system really helps. We just need to educate a little better.

Wayne

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Guest windjamer
:) Charlie you have an excelent suggestion. I dont think AACA could afford to make these signs available to all chapters, but it would be nice if they where available for all Nat. meets. I wonder if some of the folks that provide us with the do not tuch signs everyone has could help out? (Leave J.C.Taylor out of this, they do MORE than there share for us now.:D
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I'd add that I see the Team Captain training paying off. The three meets where I have judged this year, Charlotte, New Bern, and Blacksburg, all three captains found the owner, established a rapport with the owner, and asked for documentation when needed.

As to spectators, I would add another problem that a few have added to judging. I have had spectators walking in front of me when I was judging, even though the captain had pointed out where all could hear that we were currently judging the car. At Blacksburg one fellow actually pushed in between the judge and the car and started asking him questions... I guess rude is just rude....

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That's not my experience. In the 10 or 15 or so times I've had a car judged, I was there when the judges came, said hello, then stood back or was very politely ushered away from my car. I think I was asked about a feature on my car once. They finish, we often have a chance to exchange pleasantries and it is over.

I have had a judge return after judging, but it is rare for a judge to show much curiosity about a Met. And I don't blame them. They have a couple hours after their thankless job is done and they are not going to spend it reviewing Mets when they could be looking at wheels a bit higher up the food chain.

Bill

Sadly many judges have to "hit the road" pretty much as soon as they are released by their Team Captain as many still work and have long distances to travel to get home in time to rest up for work.

Now see, Bill and I would be some of the ones that would come look at your Met. We wanted to buy one. We looked at several, that sadly were in way worse shape than the owners led us to believe. :( We gave up looking....for now. :rolleyes:

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:) Charlie you have an excelent suggestion. I dont think AACA could afford to make these signs available to all chapters, but it would be nice if they where available for all Nat. meets. I wonder if some of the folks that provide us with the do not tuch signs everyone has could help out? (Leave J.C.Taylor out of this, they do MORE than there share for us now.:D

Thanks windjamer.

I probably was not clear in that I meant that AACA National would have one set of signs made up and loan them to Regions/Chapters that host an AACA National Meet. After the meet, the signs would move on to the next meet to be used there. Essentially, the signs would be used and shared by all National Meets.

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Guest windjamer

Hey Bill, I did not know your Met had an incorrect top. Thats a ten point manditory deduction. Arent you glad we judges are not expert on ALL cars?:D

Just funning you, see you at our next meeting.:D

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Thanks windjamer.

I probably was not clear in that I meant that AACA National would have one set of signs made up and loan them to Regions/Chapters that host an AACA National Meet. After the meet, the signs would move on to the next meet to be used there. Essentially, the signs would be used and shared by all National Meets.

Charlie...as usual nice seeing you at Blacksburg along with your brother Chris. Hope you had a good trip to Hagerstown.

You have been to a lot of Meets. Let's take Blacksburg for an example however it applies to all meets that I have attended plus non-AACA events. There was absolutely no fencing around the premises. No entry gates at all. Question: How many signs would it take at Blacksburg and how would you propose that every visitor read the signs not to mention adhere to the listing of rules about show cars?

You may have a good idea here however I am at a loss as to how it could be enforced. Hope your idea was not generated by damage to your car. (I cannot fathom how many signs or other media it would take to get the message across to the thousands of spectators at mega-meets let alone the cost and army of volunteers to police it.)

Regards,

Peter.

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This thread has taken on a number of lives. Sorry if it should not be in Judging.

It is not clear to me from the guidelines what the deduction is for a wrong color top. Incorrect Material is mandatory 10 points but condition defects and material defects are only 5 points each. Although incorrect color is specifically called out for a hard top as a 10 point mandatory deduction, I did not see color mentioned in the soft top category.

Bill

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Well, I would have to agree with anything that Herb says but,

Under the General Policy, if the convertible top is not as it could have come from the factory, it would be incorrect. If it is incorrect, the condition does not matter. It would be the same deduction as if the convertible top was missing or down, 10 points.

But, remember, just because it merits a deduction does not mean that all of the judging teams will always take the deduction. If the judges did not know that it was incorrect, it might not be questioned and you might not lose any points on it.

You win some, you lose some, and some are rained out.

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