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Found 1951 Saratoga


Guest paynedwp

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Guest paynedwp

Ok - a year ago I saw an old car in a barn, After chasing on and off finding owner getting in the garage and pulling off the covers it turns out to be a 4dr saratoga Hemi with all kinds of options... he parked it 15 years ago and for about 8 years started it here and there.

QUESTIONS::

Should I buy it?? Does it have any collectability I cant find any for sale?

You could eat off the engine compartment it is that clean... IS there a recommended start up procedure?

Were they 6 volt or 12 volts then (sorry havent got that far yet...

paynedwp@aol.com

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I would buy it in a minute. They are not as popular as Ford or Chev but an excellent car for their day.

This is actually a rather rare car. 1951 was the first year for the legendary Chrysler Hemi V8. It debuted in the big New Yorker and Imperial. Later in the year they brought out the Saratoga, a shorter wheelbase car basically the Windsor with a Hemi engine.

The car has no real weak spots. The engine is complicated but reliable, the transmission something of an oddball but also reliable. The brakes are good but not as easy to repair as some other makes, but they make up for it by stopping the car better.

Generally speaking all parts on the car are of higher quality than those of cheaper cars.

There is a recommended start up procedure when a car has been off the road that long. I have been through it a number of times. I'm not going to type it all out now but be assured, it is not difficult or expensive and I can explain the whole thing when the time comes.

They are a six volt, positive ground electric system. That means the battery goes in backwards to today's cars.

I'm a little nervous here about your mechanical savvy. Such a car would be easy to butcher and ruin if you go at things half assed. But if you know what you are doing (which I do) you should be able to have it purring like a big cat in a few hours.

I will also say, that was the most powerful car in the world in 1951 at 180HP. Doesn't sound like much now, but if you know a few tricks you can scare the HELL out of people when you take off from a stop. It is actually a pretty fast car, even faster than the Imperial and New Yorker because it is the lightest of the 3. The fact that it looks like the Addam's Family hearse makes it seem even faster.

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They don't have the collector value of a 55 Chev or Tbird but they do have a collector value among those in the know.

The main problem is that they are one of the highest quality cars of the time, up there with Cadillac if not better. This means repairs are more complicated, and expensive, and parts are more expensive than for cheap cars like Ford and Chev.

On the other hand they are a great car to drive once you get used to doing everything in slow motion. I don't mean the car is slow I mean the controls are more bus like than sports car like. Built for comfort. You could take a basketball team for a drive, wearing top hats there is so much room inside.

You also need to be a pretty good mechanic to work on one.

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Guest paynedwp

Now I can change the heading to

"Just purchased 1951 Saratoga with a Hemi"

previous owner stated that he thinks... doesnt quite remeber tehh following

139 inch wheel base vs, 126... A sport royale 3pc back window..Fluid drive as well as clutch..

Obviously I have some research to do... It took a long time to get the doors open and had to be quick on the trigger.

Hopefully it will be a good flip or investment or dailey driver...

Here is what she looks like with out a bath since 1994

Dan

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Wow it even has the Fluid Torque Drive. This was a hi perf option on the Saratoga. It means it has a torque converter instead of a fluid coupling, the first Chryslers so equipped were the 51s. Standard on Imperial, optional on the rest of the line.

Saratoga had a 126" wheelbase compared to 131" for New Yorker and Imperial. This is because New Yorker and Imperial previously used a straight eight which was longer than the straight six used in smaller models. They recycled the straight eight bodies for 51 and 52, after that they got a shorter wheelbase.

The 3 piece back window was also new for 51 and was applied to all Chrysler cars in 51 and 52.

The gearshift is a little unusual. It shifts like an automatic except you have to lift the lever up toward you, when shifting into Lo or Reverse.

You need to use the clutch to shift into gear, after that it drives like an automatic.

There are a couple of long threads in the Chrysler and Dodge boards about Fluid Drive, if you look them up you will find out all about driving and maintaning the Fluid Drive. It is a rather unusual combination of manual and automatic trans. Not very hard to drive but hard to figure out on your own. Basically a reliable and well made transmission, one of the better efforts at an early automatic.

One difference between fluid drive and fluid torque drive... the torque converter has its own oil supply in an oil pan like an automatic. You check it under the car, there is a big plug on the left side. The trans is filled separately also on the left side, like a common manual trans.

I see you also have the optional power steering which was also brand new for 1951. Chrysler was the only car in the world with power steering that year.

That is one well optioned car for 1951. I wouldn't be surprised if it has power brakes too. If it does, it will have an extra booster and master cylinder behind the regular master cylinder under the floor. With a rubber hose the size of a garden hose coming off the intake manifold right behind the carb.

Your car has a Hemi V8, torque converter, 4 speed automatic trans, power steering, power brakes (maybe) padded dash (standard) and possibly tinted glass. Power windows were also available but seldom seen.

No other car in the world was as lavishly equipped in 1951. No Cadillac, Lincoln, Packard, Rolls Royce or Jaguar offered all the features Chrysler had.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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That looks like the nicest Saratoga I have seen in years.

If you are going to flip it do so now. Do not spend any money on it. Any cheapo repairs you do will reduce the value more than increase it. Do not mess up a nice car like that, unless you are willing to spend the money to do things right leave it alone.

It will not make that good of a daily driver because it is too old and in too good shape. To use it every day in all weathers it will quickly deteriorate.

If you mean for occasional use on fine days that is different. That car will be well up to the job if you drive it sensibly with respect for its age.

As investment you should do fine. It doesn't look like it needs much work right now. If you take care of it you should be able to enjoy it for years with minimal upkeep and it will always be worth a good price so long as you don't butcher it or let it deteriorate.

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One thing that is impressive, it looks like the chrome is in good shape. Those cars had very cheap chrome, the one thing on them that was not of top quality. All cars suffered in those years because so much nickel and chromium was used for armaments for the Korean war.

If the chrome is in decent shape and not pitted wash it carefully with car wash soap and a soft cloth then wax the daylights out of it with car wax.

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Guest paynedwp

This is why his 139 number made sense (?) aside from a measureing tape is there any other way to tell? Like vin decode or door build plate> (i'll check under seat for build sheet when I get it home.)) I

From wikipedia..

"For 1951 the Saratoga was built on the shorter 125.5 inch wheelbase but offered the Chrysler's famed Hemi V8. Also offered was Hydraguide power steering, an industry first, and Fluid Torque Drive, a true torque converter in place of Fluid Drive's fluid coupling.

Model selection also increased for 1951 with a wagon plus eight passenger sedan and limousine on the 139.5 inch wheelbase added. 1951 proved to be a great year with 34,806 cars built.

1952 brought new taillamps while the limousine was dropped."

On the chrome it looks great but you can see the "Pig" metal through it..

And No on the windows they are crank..

I will use the start method I have used before.. In short after a fluid swap.. Disengage carb from tank feed seperately AFTER I remove spark plugs Mystery oil lube each cyl. Then hand crank...Then crank til I see oil pressure up... then put plugs back in etc.. Do you have a link to a to look at (IF theres a better way IM ALL ABOUT it.. ))

Here is the door plat and the one in the engine compartment if it helps...

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If you had a 139" wheelbase car you would know it. That is the limousine body and they are GIGANTIC.

Saratoga is basically a Windsor with the V8 engine. Both those cars have a 125.5 or 126" wheelbase.

The New Yorker and Imperial came on a 131" wheelbase. They used the same body as your car but the hood and front fenders were 5 or 5 1/2" longer to fit in the long, straight eight engine.

I know they did not have a straight eight in 1951 but they did in 1949 and 1950. The 51 and 52 Chryslers were carryovers of the design that originated in 1949, with different front sheetmetal, front doors and rear fenders.

Your car is the smallest model with the V8 and resembles in size, the New Yorker and Imperial of 1953 which were on the shorter wheelbase. I know it doesn't look small on the outside, and the inside has enough room to take the basketball team for a drive while wearing top hats but trust me, that was the "small" Chrysler.

Your starting method sounds like a good one. Don't trust the gas tank if the car has been off the road that long, it could be full of old stinky gas. Bad gas could freeze up your motor and ruin it.

The best answer is to use a motorboat gas tank unless you are sure the original gas tank is clean. You may have to take the gas tank off and have it cleaned and sealed before you can use it.

If you are not familiar with Chrysler products there are a few things to cross you up. One is, the positive ground electrical system. The battery goes in backwards to today's cars. The other is LEFT HAND THREADS on the wheel nuts, on the left side of the car. You turn them the opposite way to take them out, as if you were tightening them.

Another is the odd transmission. I suggest you search for "fluid drive" and "fluid torque drive" in the Chrysler and Dodge boards if you have any questions, they have all been answered many times.

And of course, the first thing you should buy is a factory repair manual. It will pay for itself many times over.

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The worn chrome is typical, they all wore through in a few years.This was not really Chrysler's fault, all cars were skimping on strategic materials at the time due to government edicts on war production. The best you can do is keep it waxed to preserve it. Or have it all rechromed.

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The only visible diff between a 51 and 52 is the tail lights. 51 had tail lights with separate backup lights, 52 had basically the same tail lights with the backup lights molded in. Hardly noticable unless you know what to look for.

51 was a banner year for innovations. V8 engine, torque converter drive, power steering, were all new that year. Power steering was unique to Chrysler. Other features included padded dash, power brakes, power windows, and tinted glass. All commonplace now but unusual then.

That's the trouble with Chrysler. Most of their innovations were quickly copied and became standard in the industry. So a few years later you mention they were first with power steering, or the first air conditioning, or the first minivan, or the first front drive economy car and the reaction is "so what? Everybody makes those things."

Maybe so but the didn't make them until they saw the ones Chrysler was making.

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I suppose if there is no spark you know enough to clean the white fur off the points with 600 or finer sandpaper and contact cleaner. Chrysler uses dual point ignition that is best set up off the car, preferably on a Sun ignition machine. So don't mess with the points if you can help it. Just clean them if the points aren't working.

There is also extra wiring on the carb and distributor plus a little box on the air filter support. This is all for the transmission control and can safely be ignored. If the insulation is falling off tape it up and if necessary, replace it later.

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Guest paynedwp

Thanks for all the heads up..

So now I need to decide to sell one of my other toys and keep it... OR SELL before I touch it - Before I even try to start it..

Maybe I should throw it on ebay as a no reserve for 5 days (I leave tonight for 4 days so I wouldnt touch it anyways...) I'm having a hard time coming up with value though ..aside from OLD Car Guide magazine I cant find one (unmolested) for sale....

I would think a hemi collector would want a first year with all the options and unmolested.. Hmmm Maybe a no reserve auction starting at 4K ??...

Oh the indecsion is because for 2 years I could only see the white walls through the locked barn doors and I really like coupes (I have a 56 lincoln coupe a 64 Riviera etc...) so I was hoping to find a 2 door under the tarp.

The 4 door is the rub... do I finish it and drive occasionally or see what the market says... I have never "Found one" in this excellent shape - outside of shows or people that want your first born...

Edited by paynedwp (see edit history)
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I can't believe you want to sell that car.

Unfortunately that car's looks are against it and the public has no idea how good they are. So they tend to be hard to sell.

You could probably put a battery in it and get it running without too much expense. Just be careful not to mess up the originality, but I think you have enough savvy to do that.

I'm tempted to buy it myself.

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Guest paynedwp

Well its not a matter of want... I already have a custom 1964 Riviera with a 425 Nailhead. A 1956 Lincoln coupe and a few other toys....:D

SO I figure for the true enthuisast or collector this is a real nice find, before I turn it into a project (Drop tank, heater core, Brakes, Interior etc etc etc)

If nobody buys it It will be next in line!! And yes I put it on EBAY already :eek:

So theres more Pics there - I'll tell you one thing i listed it late last night and already 200+ have checked it out...

and starting price is 4 grand :) ODD How I hope nobody buys it...I may sell the Riviera instead :)

Chrysler : Saratoga loaded with OPtions : eBay Motors (item 300421819804 end time May-03-10 18:47:06 PDT)

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I checked out the photos in your ebay ad. The car looks to be in real nice shape for the age. I would keep it as is not restore it just clean it up and preserve the originality.

A couple of points. I was mistaken about the fluid torque drive, your car has fluid matic drive which is the regular fluid drive. If it had fluid torque drive (extra cost option) it would say so on the shift quadrant. I couldn't quite make it out until I saw the larger pic in the ad.

The other thing is the heater is missing. It lived in a black tin box about the size of a bread box, about where your left hand is resting in the engine photos.

There was a blower fan on the rad support, connected by a round flex hose to the heater. From the heater, there was a duct made of molded cardboard that ran to the firewall. In the firewall beside the heat duct, was a thermostat that connected to the heater.

Your car looks different, I see the blower and the heater duct but the heater is missing. It is barely possible your car has a heater under the dash but I doubt it. Unless you found a big black box with a heater core in the trunk it seems to be missing.

You might contact the seller and see if it is lurking around the garage someplace. It is not unusual to take it out when working on the engine.

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Guest paynedwp

Either way its OK. I'm with you if it doesnt sell I'll have the engine cleaned powder coat the valve covers. Redo interior may or may not add AC/heater the redo the dash pad...

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Guest paynedwp

Oh and thanks!!! I fixed the add (I had to leave town after I washed it so I never looked for the torque conv. Heater etc...)) I have the upholstery people (factory original only) scheduled to look at it Sat. in case it doesnt sell!!!

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Just a couple of years ago a friend of mine in Houston bought a '52 Saratoga sedan that had been fully restored. Everything rebuilt, repainted, rechromed. The older gentleman had put close to $15,000 into a solid car just like this to make it all fresh and new and then he realized he was too old for a hobby car. He sold the car for $6500. So how much do you really want to bid for this car when there are always good deals to be found where someone has already put the money into a car and then decides to get out for one reason or another? Sure, $4K is a good ending price but unfortunately that is just where this auction is beginning.

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Guest paynedwp

I hear you... And the 4K is because I'm not going to sell it for less. Its almost 100% there,,, and its the first year of the Hemi ... So either there will be no bids (while I'm outta town) or somebody really wants it.... Either way its cool...

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The best repair manual is the original factory manual supplied to dealerships. Since there were so many dealers and they all had them, there are still quite a few around. The going price is $40 to $50 at least that's what they used to go for.

A web search should turn something up, or perhaps one will show up on Ebay.

Before you get carried away may I suggest you get the car going and drive it for a while? This will show up any bugs, and you will find out if you like the car enough to keep it. Both valuable things to know before you put a lot of money into a project.

I used to own a 51 New Yorker and was happy about the whole thing once I got used to the car being what it was.

By that I mean, it was built in 1951 for substantial middle aged business and professional men who wore double breasted suits and fedora hats, and drove accordingly. Once you got used to the idea, and sat back with your shoulders back and head up and let the car do its thing, it was great. If you expect it to drive like a modern car you will be disappointed. Well, if you want a Toyota why not buy a Toyota? Don't try to make a neat old car something it's not.

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If it was a 2 door coupe , I'd be inclined to keep it. If the gas tank has gelled fuel in it thats a real problem as the "oilite" filter will have to be taken out and the tank even might have to be replaced-hard to come by too.I had a 52 Saratoga and a 52 Imperial 4 door. 4 door 1951-4 Chryslers are not really exciting/popular cars to the general public. It might be a hemi car but thats about it! The chrome is the huge downfall of these 1950-52 Chryslers.It took me 10 years to finally locate all NOS chrome for my 52 NewYorker coupe.

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Guest paynedwp

Well the good part is all the chrome is there and VERY servicable. Also I have a good "In" at a chrome shop to work anything although If I am "Forced" to keep it I do not think I will redo anything other than bumpers (($100 each plus another 100 for the gaurds- I just did my 56 lincolns so the prices are real))

The gas tank was replaced at some point as there is no way it could look that good. I will of course drop it and have it cleaned and pressure checked for leaks.. I suspect when it was converted from a mech. fuel pump to electric thie tank was replaced 90'...?

The oil carb set-up is new to me so I will have to learn about it although the carb also looks newer I will dig into it more when I get back to town friday..

ALSO I know the looks arent the most popular...But I gotta tell ya..honestly it grows on ya.... Even the green on green

OH I will also go read previous post on tranny etc...(I love these forums)

The great thing about this being a always garaged car is the bolts and rubber look great.... contrasted with my 56 that was a pain in the ass cause it was ALWAYS outside!!

Thanks again...

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On the gas tank situation. I think he was referring to the filter inside the tank.

Your car has a neat workaround for inspecting the gas tank. Roll up the trunk floor mat and you will find, right in the middle, a hole over the gauge sender. It is supposed to be covered by a rubber cover. Take off the cover and you can remove the gauge sender without taking the tank out. This leaves a round hole 4 or 5 inches wide, perfect for inspecting the inside of the tank.

An even easier method is to take off the gas cap and take a whiff. If it smells like gas you are in. If it smells like old stinky varnish Uh Oh we have a problem.

It is also possible to disconnect the gas line and pressurize the tank. There is a cool way to do this, find an old truck inner tube and cut out a circle of rubber with the valve in the middle. Clamp this on the filler with a hose clamp. Now you can pressurize the tank with an air hose, forcing the gas out the fuel line.

You can actually drive a car for miles and miles using this trick, without a fuel pump.

From what you say the tank was redone not too long ago and so was the carburetor. So you are probably OK, as long as they put stabilizer in the fuel. A smell test will tell the tale. Even if it passes the smell test it would be wise to drain the tank and add fresh gas.

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The carburetor is unique to the early Chrysler hemi, 1951 to 53 models. It is a Carter WCD with 2 switches to control the transmission, and a water heated base. It is practically impossible to replace with a different carb because of the switches. So, yours is probably a rebuilt which is a good sign. It looks like someone already took care of the gas tank and carb.

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Man, that car looks to be in uncommonly good shape. I hope you realize how fortunate you are to have found it. These were really considered to be fine vehicles in their era. The engine in my 54 NY wagon was practically whisper quiet, and the entire car had a very solid, well-put-together feel that many others of that period lacked. The manner in which you came to finally own the car - curiosity at seeing only the whitewall tires, dogged persistence at following up over a period of time - it all has a way of suggesting that, maybe, you were meant to find and own it. I guess that sounds sort of silly or goofy - but, after all of your persistence and work paid off and you came into ownership of this really well preserved antique automobile, don't you really hate to just flip it for the sake of dollars? That would be one sweet car to hang on to and enjoy for a while. You can glide around silently in that bad boy and when you get out on the open road, it will take you as fast as you want to go with NO strain on the drive train. One wonderful thing about Chryslers of this era - when you roll down the windows, it only takes about one crank - no winding up and down, around and around - they were engineered to go up and down with one crank. Put some radial tires on that beast and feel how it soaks up the bumps. I'd have to give a lot of thought to letting that one go.

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I saw your listing on ebay, cannot believe no attention yet. Infact not a lot of attention for a lot of the 50s Chryslers, what a shame.

I think 46 to 48 Chryslers seem to sell well on ebay.

I would seriously consider buying your car, if I only had the coin.

This car is nice, and it will only be original once, as it is now......

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Tom McCahill remarked in a Chrysler road test of the early 50s, that if you examine a Chrysler piece by piece every part looks like it cost more than the corresponding part of its main rivals.

I can confirm this by my own experience and that of others.

Another example. I have several magazine articles on hopping up the early Chrysler hemi written at various times from the mid fifties to the early nineties. One point they all seem to agree on is that you should carefully check all dimensions but remedial machine work is almost never required on a Chrysler. In other words they come from the factory "blueprinted". You may have to true up the cylinders due to wear but that's about it.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Guest paynedwp

All Good. Yeah there has been close to 1000 views of the listing and 50 watchers... HOWEVER I had put my El camino up for sale as well as a back up :) and 3 people today after work. If it sells - I'll take this one off of ebay and attempt to start saturday...

( I can only keep 3...since I promised the Wife I would keep only two..I think 3 is a good compromise!!)

Got home late from NASA last night an uncovered the car to look at it (and smell the gas) I think I will drain the tank.the line to the carb etc saturday. (or late tonight)

I noticed three plates or acces panels on the front florr board...One looks like where you would put a standard shift lever...

What are the other two?

Dan

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There are access holes in the floor for servicing the brakes, fluid drive and transmission.

On the left or driver's side there is an access plate for filling the brake master cylinder.

On the right, just below the instrument panel there is a plate for filling the fluid drive unit.

Behind that is an access plate for the transmission governor and solenoid and their wiring.

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I'd buy it myself if it wasn't so far away.

Have it shipped to Port Huron Michigan, pickup and bring over in Sarnia Ontario, and straight home, that is if you are in Ontario.

Might be worth looking at Shipping Quote....

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Guest paynedwp

Thanks!! so far 1227 Views - 50 Watchers..

Big question is why didnt I start it and will I gaurantee it will run... So I figure it wont hit reserve - Then I can start it and flush the tank and hoses (well and do the brakes of course)

So Im selling my Riviera so I can do this one correctly - Be just my luck they both sell... Doubtful!!

We'll see in a few hours!!

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