Jump to content

46-48 Chrysler Windsor transmission?


Guest kope49

Recommended Posts

Guest kope49

In reading the useful fluid drive articles on the allpar forum and following the threads on fluid drive here I am confused as to whether the cheaper early postwar Chryslers (Royals and Windsors) had a three speed manual with the fluid drive or the semi-automatic M-5 or M-6. Or was the semi-automatic an option on these cars? I am familiar with the M-6 having owned a DeSoto with Tip-Toe-Shift but have never seen or driven a car with the manual transmission and fluid drive. My father had a 49 New Yorker a long time ago which I assume had the M-6. If this has been addressed in a prior post I must have skipped over it.

Any enlightenment from someone familiar with these first post-war cars would be appreciated. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To the best of my knowledge Dodges came with fluid drive and a manual trans, DeSotos and Chryslers came with fluid drive and semi automatics.

In 1949 the M6 was made available on Dodge as the Gyromatic transmission.

My 1951-52 parts list shows a manual trans for Plymouth and Dodge, manual trans with fluid drive for Dodge DeSoto and Chrysler Windsor, Prestomatic transmission for Dodge DeSoto and Chrysler and Prestomatic fluid torque drive for DeSoto and Chrysler.

I suspect the manual trans for DeSoto and Chrysler was an option reserved for taxi, limousine and commercial chassis.

In 1946 -48 Plymouths came with manual trans only, US Dodges came with fluid drive and manual trans, DeSotos and Chryslers came with fluid drive and M6 semi automatic. Anything else would have been optional special order.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rusty, I thought that the 46 to 48 Royals came with a 3spd and fluid drive, and all other models came with the M5 or M6 semi-auto and fluid drive, but I was only speculating.

I have a 3spd and dry clutch in my 47 Chrysler Royal, but this was done in 1988.

I don't think I will return it to a fluid drive, even though I have a fluid drive and m6 trans in a parts car.

The regular 3 spd and regular clutch are simpler, and have more off the line boost.

I would however would like to get an early 50s 3 spd OD trans, but have never found one in my part of Canada.

I do have a 3.73 diff, not the factory either, and before I swapped this in, someone had put in a 4.30 diff, that had to go, for obvious reasons.

Were the 3pd OD trans available in Canada in the early 50s for Plym or Dodge?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Bill-W

For the 1946-48 period, Dodge DeLuxe/Custom came with the 3-speed manual transmission as standard and Fluid Drive as an option. The DeSoto DeLuxe/Custom had Fluid Drive with the 3-speed transmission as standard and Tip Toe Hydraulic Shift (M-6 semi-automatic) as an option. For the Chryslers, Fluid Drive and Simplimatic (M-6) were optional on the C38 six cylinder models (Royal, Windsor and Town Country) while the C39 eight cylinder models (Saratoga, New Yorker, Town & Country) had Fluid Drive standard with Simplimatic optional. The C40 Crown Imperial had Fluid Drive and Simplimatic standard.

Dodge called its version of the M-6 Gyromatic and first appeared for 1949. DeSoto used the Tip Toe Hydraulic Shift name while Chrysler called the M-6 Prestomatic in 1949-50 and Fluid-Matic from 1951. Fluid-Matic was standard on all but the bottom line Windsor series.

For 1951 Chrysler introduced a torque converter as an option on V8 models except the Crown Imperial which offered it as standard equipment. DeSoto offered the torque converter as an option on the 1952 DeSoto FireDome V8 (F-D and TTHS were standard). Chrysler called it Fluid Torque Drive and the unit had a fluid reserve tank and pump located at the rear of the unit.

For 1953 Fluid Torque Drive was reworked to use the engine oil and pump to supply fluid for the torque converter. FTD was now optional on all DeSoto Firedomes, Chrysler Windsors, New Yorkers and standard on Chrysler Imperials. Dodge offered Gyro Torque (torque converter and M-6) as an option on all Coronet models.

The Dodge's version of FTD would be offered on the Plymouth starting March, 1953, under the name of Hy-Drive. This version used the torque converter with a 3-speed manual tranmission and Plymouth never offered the M-6 semi-automatic.

Dodge offered Gyro-Matic on 6-cylinder Dodges in 1954 and Plymouth continued to offer Hy-Drive, although Dodge also offered Powerflite across the board, which Plymouth also offered mid-year. Both DeSoto and Chrysler dropped Fluid Drive, Fluid Torque Drive and the M-6 and replaced them with Powerflite for 1954, although Imperials got PF late in 1953.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the 1946-48 period, Dodge DeLuxe/Custom came with the 3-speed manual transmission as standard and Fluid Drive as an option. The DeSoto DeLuxe/Custom had Fluid Drive with the 3-speed transmission as standard and Tip Toe Hydraulic Shift (M-6 semi-automatic) as an option. For the Chryslers, Fluid Drive and Simplimatic (M-6) were optional on the C38 six cylinder models (Royal, Windsor and Town Country) while the C39 eight cylinder models (Saratoga, New Yorker, Town & Country) had Fluid Drive standard with Simplimatic optional. The C40 Crown Imperial had Fluid Drive and Simplimatic standard.

Dodge called its version of the M-6 Gyromatic and first appeared for 1949. DeSoto used the Tip Toe Hydraulic Shift name while Chrysler called the M-6 Prestomatic in 1949-50 and Fluid-Matic from 1951. Fluid-Matic was standard on all but the bottom line Windsor series.

For 1951 Chrysler introduced a torque converter as an option on V8 models except the Crown Imperial which offered it as standard equipment. DeSoto offered the torque converter as an option on the 1952 DeSoto FireDome V8 (F-D and TTHS were standard). Chrysler called it Fluid Torque Drive and the unit had a fluid reserve tank and pump located at the rear of the unit.

For 1953 Fluid Torque Drive was reworked to use the engine oil and pump to supply fluid for the torque converter. FTD was now optional on all DeSoto Firedomes, Chrysler Windsors, New Yorkers and standard on Chrysler Imperials. Dodge offered Gyro Torque (torque converter and M-6) as an option on all Coronet models.

The Dodge's version of FTD would be offered on the Plymouth starting March, 1953, under the name of Hy-Drive. This version used the torque converter with a 3-speed manual tranmission and Plymouth never offered the M-6 semi-automatic.

Dodge offered Gyro-Matic on 6-cylinder Dodges in 1954 and Plymouth continued to offer Hy-Drive, although Dodge also offered Powerflite across the board, which Plymouth also offered mid-year. Both DeSoto and Chrysler dropped Fluid Drive, Fluid Torque Drive and the M-6 and replaced them with Powerflite for 1954, although Imperials got PF late in 1953.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

Model M-5 transmissions were used from very late 1942 to 1948. 1949 started with the M-6 model transmission. Both Chrysler and DeSoto. A slightly different upgraded transmission. Simplimatic was a DeSoto name for late 1941 to 1948 or abouts. Chrysler for 1946 to 1948 called the transmission it offered"Hydraulicly Operated". Chrysler in 1949 started the new name "Prestomatic".

Bob

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Model M-5 transmissions were used from vey late 1942 to 1948. 1949 started with the M-6 model transmission. Both Chrysler and DeSoto. A slightly different upgraded transmission. Simplimatic was a DeSoto name for late 1941 to 1948 or abouts. Chrysler for 1946 to 1948 called the transmission it offered"Hydraulicly Operated". Chrysler in 1949 started the new name "Prestomatic".

Bob

Hi Bob, yes I was in the belief they were M5s till 48, and the Simplimatic was Desoto's handle, and Klunkomatic was for Chrysler ( only Joking).

I also thought the lower Chrsyler lines,such as Royal, had a fluid drive and 3 spd trans, with a 3.90 diff, and the 4 spd hydraulic trans would be optional with a 3.54 diff.

Now Canadian made Mopars, may have been slightly different, not sure though.

I currently have a 3spd trnas and regular clutch, and a 3.73 rear end in my 47 Chrysler Royal CC, I like it like this, but can see the value of fluid drive in atop and go city driving.....Fred

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest kope49

I can see for highway speeds the hydraulic transmission with it's 3.54 differential would be better. If the Windsor 6 had a 3.9 rear end with the 3 speed manual and fluid drive cruising at anything over 55 would probably not be a good idea.

Thank you all for the information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never seen a 1946-8 Chrysler Of any series with a 3 speed in it. I have several 1946-52 chryslers. Most are C39 cars. I started my interest in 1975 in the 46-8 Chryslers. 3 speed cars are quite rare I think! I know of a 1947 Royal 3 pass cpe that has the M-5 in it!8 cyl. cars use the 3.36 ratio rear end. A bit bigger gear case than the 6 cyl 3.54. For the C38 cars a 3.54 is a good ratio.

"Click-O-Matic" is the term for a low mileage great shifting M5/6 transmission

"Klunk-O-Matic" describes a well used M5/6 transmission

"Bang-O-Matic" is for the name describing a M5/6 that has big problems with the input shaft/blocker ring assemblies!

Bob

Edited by c49er (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see for highway speeds the hydraulic transmission with it's 3.54 differential would be better. If the Windsor 6 had a 3.9 rear end with the 3 speed manual and fluid drive cruising at anything over 55 would probably not be a good idea.

Thank you all for the information.

Hi, the RPMs @ 60 mph, with a P205 75 15 tire for the 3.54, 3.73, 3.90 are as follows.

3.54 diff @ 60 mph = 2623 rpm

3.73 diff @ 60 mph = 2764 rpm

3.90 dif @ 60 mph = 2890 rpm

Not a whole lot more rpm, but makes a difference at higher speeds than 60 mph thats for sure.

I do know a number of guys who own P15s or D24s, that run them with either 3.90 or even 4.11 diffs and drive them at 60 mph or more on the highway/freeway, without problems. Some of these guys have larger rear tires to help reduce higher rpm.

Having an R10 early 50s Mopar 3 spd OD trans is reall the way to go, if your not concerned with being OEM, these OD trans will allow you to cruise comfortably at 65 to 70 mph, and your fuel economy will be greater with the lower rpm too.

My engine is running well, but she has miles on her, I keep it at 55 mph, because of that reason, if the engine and diff were rebuilt, it would be 60 to 65 mph on the highway for me......

Edited by fred (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm certainly glad we cleared that up!

( You could go nuts trying to figure out the welter of transmissions used by Chrysler Corporation between 1939 and 1954)

On the overdrive question some have installed late model T5 transmissions as used in Mustang, Camaro, S10 and S15 pickup trucks, in fact any US made rear drive vehicle that had a 5 speed in the 80s or 90s probably had one of them.

Don Coatney has one in his flathead 6 powered 48 Plymouth and drives it all over the US at speeds of 70 MPH.

If you do a google search I am sure you will turn up something. He had a series of photos on the web that lay out the whole installation.

One thing I do remember, the pickup and van versions are better for our use because the gearshift on the sporty jobs is too far back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm certainly glad we cleared that up!

( You could go nuts trying to figure out the welter of transmissions used by Chrysler Corporation between 1939 and 1954)

On the overdrive question some have installed late model T5 transmissions as used in Mustang, Camaro, S10 and S15 pickup trucks, in fact any US made rear drive vehicle that had a 5 speed in the 80s or 90s probably had one of them.

Don Coatney has one in his flathead 6 powered 48 Plymouth and drives it all over the US at speeds of 70 MPH.

If you do a google search I am sure you will turn up something. He had a series of photos on the web that lay out the whole installation.

One thing I do remember, the pickup and van versions are better for our use because the gearshift on the sporty jobs is too far back.

Hi, Don Coatneys is a nice mod. I know Don personally, we both belong to P15 D24.

There is some work involved to make this work out, some welding onto the bell housing, a different driveshaft, Don used a 3.55 diff from a later model vehicle.

This will probably be trouble free for a long time for Don.

If you go with the 3 spd OD trans, you use the same driveshaft, no mods to the clutch housing, direct bolt in. If you ever have to pull the OD trans, a regualr 3 spd can bolt right in as a temporary replacement. No cutting the floor panel for a stick, and very cool reliable OD trans.

I still like the T5 idea too, will see when the time comes.....Fred

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest kope49

I have seen two cars listed on e-bay in the last three days where the owner said they were a three speed with fluid drive and in both cases they had the M-5 or M-6. I can see if you are not familiar with these cars and see a clutch pedal and a shift lever that looks like "3 on a tree" you would assume it's a manual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
Guest canninrm

hello, i have a 1950- Crysler windsor that i think is fluid drive. However as i am restoring it i found out i do not have the linkage from the side of the transmission to the linkage at the fire wall for the shifter, does anyone have extra parts out there that can help? bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DeSoto Frank

Further refinement:

'41-'42 Chrysler / De Soto: Simplimatic & Vacamatic transmission : M-4 Vacuum-operated transmission. Also referred to as "Underdrive", for some reason.

'46-'48 Chrysler / De Soto: Prestomatic & Tip-Toe Shift : M-5 Hydraulically-operated Transmission.

'49-'54 Chrysler / De Soto / Dodge: Prestomatic / T-T Shift / GyroMatic : M-6 Hydraulically-operated Transmission (revised control system, eliminating kick-down relay, and longer tail-shaft housing.

Chrysler slapped the "Fluid Drive" label on MANY variations between 1939 & 1954; the only thing it positively guarantees is that there is a Fluid Coupling between the engine and the tranny. After the Fluid Coupling, there could be a 3-speed stick, 3-speed + OD, or 4 speed semi-automatic. In 1951 Chrysler revised the system to include a true Torque-Converter, and called that system "Fluid-Torque" or "Fluid-Matic" - these vehicles have a plastic shift indicator on top of the steering column.

The "standard" M-4, M-5, M-6 Fluid Drives have no shift indicator, and the column lever uses the standard "H-pattern", except "1st gear" position is blocked-out.

Fluid Drive & 3- speed has the Fluid Coupling, followed by a regular three-speed tranny, and standard shift pattern.

I believe any tranny combo could be ordered in the Chrysler or De Soto; Dodge had Fluid Drive as an option through '48, but only with a 3-speed stick. Plymouth only offered the traditional "dry clutch" & 3-speed stick until they introduced "Hy-Drive" for the '54 Seaon.

Most post-war Chrysler & De Sotos have the semi-auto or Powerflite; have not encountered any with 3-speed...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest canninrm

Frank, I appreciate the total wealth of knowledge you have on transmissions, However, I still need to get some direction on where I can find the linkage between the firewall throttle linkage and transmission. Have you got any ideas? bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frank, I appreciate the total wealth of knowledge you have on transmissions, However, I still need to get some direction on where I can find the linkage between the firewall throttle linkage and transmission. Have you got any ideas? bob

Try some of the guys on the WPC Club site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DeSoto Frank

Also try here: P15-D24 Homepage ( '46-'48 Plymouth / Dodge site, but all Flathead-MoPar welcome).

FYI, there is no connection between the throttle and the tranny for MoPar Semi-Autos, only the gearshift linkage, which consists of two sets of rods between the steering column and the side of the tranny.

Very Important FYI:

MoPar Semi-automatics, 1941 - '54 are NOT, repeat NOT in any way related to MODERN (post-1950 automatics), or any other mfr's semi-auto.

They are a manual-shift, sliding-gear transmission that has been equipped with some self-shifting gizmos.

Do NOT try to relate Hydramatic / other "modern" automatic theory/ construction/operation to MoPar "Fluid Drive"... it will take you down a very wrong path, and lead to lots of frustration.

(Can't emphasize this enough ! )

Been there, done that, learned the hard way 20 years ago, during the "dark ages" between the guys that worked on them and the age of the Internet.

PS: Fluid Drive & "modern automatics" do have one thing in common: a "liquid coupling" between the engine and the transmission, but the similarity ends there.

Edited by DeSoto Frank (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...