Jump to content

Need help!!!! Law prevents automotive restoration.


ARGH

Recommended Posts

Recently my father who is retired and spends most his time restoring antique cars was visited by a person from the zoning board who threatened him with fines for being in violation of the New York State Property Maintenance Code, 302.8 which states:

<span style="font-style: italic">"Except as otherwise provided for in statute or other regulations, two or more inoperative or unlicensed motor vehicles shall not be parked, kept or stored on any premises, and no vehicle shall at anytime be in a state of major disassembly, disprepair, or in the process of being stripped or dismantled." </span>

This can be found here: http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/new_york/NY_Property/PDFs/Chapter%203.pdf

I am looking for any information regarding laws like this and how the antique car hobby community is handling laws that prevent people from automotive restoration on private property.

Any help, information, references or links would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

-E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why you have to stay aware of what local governments are doing and not be afraid to attend and speak out at a zoning board or county commissioner meeting.

Zoning boards and HOA's are a bane and blight on the landscape. They generally create more problems than they solve.

I finally had to let the lawyer handle the zoning fiasco this county created when I built my garage. Based on its 36x50 size and proximity to Virginia International Raceway, those zoning fools were convinced, nay adamant, that I was going to open and operate a commercial race shop which would require a rezoning to Commercial from its current Agricultural. OK, it's built as a pole barn agricultural structure per the property's A-2 small farm agricultural use zoning, it has no permanent water supply or bathroom, no provision for installing a lift. "But you MIGHT install all that in the future"

Yes, and I MIGHT cancel the whole thing, sell out the property and the old cars, and you not get a dime of building permit or tax money, which is what all this is about anyway- jacking up the tax value on the property.

The lawyer earned his money, but he got things straightened out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARGH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is a car hobbyist supposed to do any work on a vehicle if the zoning law prohibits it? </div></div>

You might want to go to your local zoning office and look up the actual code. The link you have posted says "Copywrite 2005, 2nd Draft." This makes me suspect that what you are looking at may not be the current code. I would beware of companies that make you buy copies of codes and laws. There is no guarantee that they are current.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though the link doesn't appear current, I know the law is. I think they are just a little slow making the codes and laws available on the internet.

If a person from the zoning board came by and said it was a violation, I'm willing to bet it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest abh3usn

So, the guy from the zoning board was trespassing? Invoke legal assistance and make the HOA go away. You can also join the HOA board and destroy it from within. Our neighborhood put a petition together to dissolve the POA. We were only a few signatures short. We will keep trying. In my opinion, POA/HOA are communistic in nature as their main purpose is to take away our personal liberties. They infringe upon our "rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness". I fight my POA every chance I get. I once got a letter in December telling me I had to finish painting my house. Sure, I'll finish painting when it's 20 below out no problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Kestas

Somewhat related, we just had a car impounded from our street. It's a winter car that we store and use seasonally. Since it's hard to store all five cars on my property, it was on the street with dummy plates four four seasons.

What frosts me is that the city became rather ambitious and went beyond the <span style="font-style: italic">spirit of the law </span>(removing blight from the city) and started citing the <span style="font-style: italic">letter of the law</span>. I'm glad they didn't walk the drive behind the house where there's another car in storage (no plates).

With all the plant shutdowns in Livonia, the city is in dire straits to raise money for their operations. Beefing up enforcement is one venue. Of course, this discussion can easily lead us to the dangers government getting too big and in danger infringing on our liberties, but I don't know if politics is allowed on this board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Doesn't look like there is much you can do. Our Legislature has apparently voted for this overall Law, and in the case of local ordinances which are looser, this law superceeds. I found a better site on the web regarding this law and have put a link below. Meanwhile here is their official definition of an inoperable automobile:

INOPERABLE MOTOR VEHICLE. A vehicle which cannot be driven upon the public streets for reasons including but not limited to being unlicensed, wrecked, abandoned, in a state of disrepair, or incapable of being moved under its own power.

How sad that it has come to this. The next step is to fight this and have it turned over, but be honest, how many people are going to be willing to do that when so many other people keep trashy yards to begin with, impacting their real estate values?

Perhaps in your dad's case he might argue some sort of grandfather clause? But you probably need a lawyer for that argument.

STATE INFORMATION

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience has been that unless someone complains, no one will ever bother you about any of these types of laws. This particular law was most likely considered just so the authorities would have something to throw at someone when there's a problem and they want to slap you around. Looking at the other parts of the law I noticed that no one is allowed to have a building that has rodents in it. Well, who the heck is gonna enforce that one? But in case the authorities get called to a place that is infested and there is no local ordinance, they can revert to this statewide code and cite the owner.

Basically just a way to cover their behinds.

In my case I was cited because one of the townboard members lived around the corner from me and did not like the sight of one of my cars in the back yard. In my town they won't let you have any unlicensed car outside in your yard. So they slapped me around and forced me to register the vehicle even though I had no intention of using it. Of course once it was registered, I pulled it out from behind the shed and put it on prominent display where everyone could see it. But it actually worked out as I fixed the mechanicals and had a good time driving it. But I left it unpainted and parked it in my legal driveway right by the road every night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Typical New York State. They don't call it the Land of Taxes for nothing. There has never been a Tax, Fee, or Assesment that New York does not like. My only solution was to get the he!! out of there. I know that is not a solution for everyone, but it worked for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Typical New York State. They don't call it the Land of Taxes for nothing. There has never been a Tax, Fee, or Assesment that New York does not like. My only solution was to get the he!! out of there. I know that is not a solution for everyone, but it worked for me.

I did too, just not as far as you went. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did too, just not as far as you went. :)

And there are times when I think I did not go as far south as I should have. The only problem is that the only place further south is CUBA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Keep in mind they always have to prove you have two cars or more in a state of disassemble.

They can not enter without a warrant.

They can not stop you from having car parts as long as you do not have more than two cars apart. If you just have car parts then they have to start adding to their ordinance. The question becomes how many car parts can you have?

In the end, the rules are not easily enforceable unless you allow them to be enforceable. If you poke around the internet I am sure you can find ways to defend yourself from ignorant laws. There are rules and procedures that must be followed by the courts, you just need to know how to make them trip up on their own rules.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Siegfried

If the cars needs to be 'inside' then, put it inside. Inside to me means just that 'INSIDE something that hides the car'. AKA: a car cover, a tarp, a portable garage, all come to mind. If you can't see it then, you might be home free.

Also, put up 'NO TRESPASSING', and enforce them via the police. Turn the tables on the code enforcer. He really has no right to come on your property, unless maybe he wants to pay the taxes, etc!!!!!!

Just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am no lawyer, but 302.8 sure implies that anyone in NY State must get some local approval for their own garage if they are doing any car work which involves repair, body work, etc. And definately no paiting of any sort.

Just don't get you neighbors upset, or they may turn you in. I would say most local authorities will tolorate one car inside with occasional outside. I stripped an old Buick in my driveway and cut it up with a power-saw. But I was fast.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem isn't the law per se, but the sometimes over zealous enforcement. On the other hand who wants a neighbor that has a half dozen "classic" cars that he's "restoring" slowly sinking into the mud in the back yard, or 3 or 4 parts cars that are way to valuable to scrap teetering on concrete blocks.

There's two sides to this story guys. One man's "collection" is another mans junk yard.

The only real answer is to have enough property to insulate yourself from complaints or keep em inside. Not an easy thing to do but it's the price of living..............Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Siegfried
The problem isn't the law per se, but the sometimes over zealous enforcement. On the other hand who wants a neighbor that has a half dozen "classic" cars that he's "restoring" slowly sinking into the mud in the back yard, or 3 or 4 parts cars that are way to valuable to scrap teetering on concrete blocks.

There's two sides to this story guys. One man's "collection" is another mans junk yard.

The only real answer is to have enough property to insulate yourself from complaints or keep em inside. Not an easy thing to do but it's the price of living..............Bob

I have to agree, if you have this going on then, you need a high stockade fence around your yard. That way no one can see what the dickens you're saving, restoring, parting out, etc, and the neighbors will still say HELLO when they see you all!!! Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem isn't the law per se, but the sometimes over zealous enforcement.

Many years ago I had that problem. By chance I ventured to find where the Orderinance Enforcement Officer lived to check out his home and it was only a mile away. Son of a gun if he didn't have several Ordinance violations!!! His boss was interested to hear that information and see the pictures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Guest Roar
I've been hit with this before. Our Zoning Officer said that if the car is inside they

don't care.

The code here in Central Calif says: anything inside doesn't count and inside means anything under a permanant roof.

This estate was ownded by a family with 7 adults but legally only was allowed to have 2 cars!!

Now I've over 100 inside!

cheers;

Roar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem isn't the law per se, but the sometimes over zealous enforcement. On the other hand who wants a neighbor that has a half dozen "classic" cars that he's "restoring" slowly sinking into the mud in the back yard, or 3 or 4 parts cars that are way to valuable to scrap teetering on concrete blocks.

There's two sides to this story guys. One man's "collection" is another mans junk yard.

The only real answer is to have enough property to insulate yourself from complaints or keep em inside. Not an easy thing to do but it's the price of living..............Bob

We live not far out of the city limits of St. Albans and that is what we live next to. The fellow died several years ago and left a sizeable collection of cars and at least two boats. The one jewel is a Model A in the garage but we have lived here for twenty-six years and it was never on the road. Across from the house is a vine covered 1966 Alfa Romeo just like the one we had and sold. The guy that bought our Alfa tried to buy that one too but Charlie wouldn't sell. Now it is a lump of rust with honeysuckle vines hiding most of it.

To Charlie's credit before he became ill, and later died, he moved the car and boat from beside the rail fence that separates his property from ours. They are now down by the other higher fence the property shares with the neighbors on the other side of the lot.

His widow still lives there. They were always good neighbors and I would never dream of turning it in although we have a state wide REAP program that would come and haul them off. Charlie was a "collector" of many things automotive and his two sons will have a job on their hands to clear it all out of all the places that Charlie stored all of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Roar

These stored treasures DO provide a wonderfull source of usually inexpensive parts and projects.

With the high price of scrap, LOTS of the sources for parts for OUR cars have dried up! There are several large scrappers nearby here in California that are smashing ANYTHING they can get cheaper than the money they can net from scrapping it.

This has driven the prices of inexpensive older trucks and cars up steeply along with the unbelievable shop costs of repairing anything over mid 70's.

Support those that are husbanding our old "junk" and give them a hand maintaining it so the gals at the local gov don't have it hualled to the scrapper!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

To many, an "inoperable vehicle" means "junk". Some municipalities have a number of days limit that can kick in, typically. Street parking is another issue, too, which can cause problems.

As stated, usually a complaint brings out the code enforcement people, unless there's a city-wide effort for such. The most ambiguous word is "nuisance", which can cover lots of things. "Nuisance to health and safety", not specifically cosmetic things.

For "inside" things, I believe that CA now has some codes which specifies that there must be a walk-space around all vehicles (with a width specification), plus what can be "stored" in each vehicle. Main issue there is probably for fire department people, or similar, to have easier access in fighting residence fires and such, dressed in all of their related equipment--valid issues from that point of view.

For "outside vehicles", flat tires are usually a tipping point for getting a notification from code compliance operative. Again, most probably a trigger for "inoperative" status but also related to clearing the vehicle out of the way for fire trucks, if needed, or to get it out of the building that is burning.

Some municipalities are worse than others, just as some states are similar.

Was it the fact that the relative was working on cars or that he might be operating a business in an area not zoned for such?

Usually, keeping things out of sight and under car covers can go a long way to keeping everybody happy. Car covers have gotten inexpensive at the discount stores (for the opaque ones rather than the thinner nylon transparent ones). Be sure to tie-down the car covers so wind will not billow them.

In some cases, the 8' solid fence will not circumvent the visibility issues, nor complaints of "nuisance" issues, but it can certainly help keep things out of open sight of neighbors.

BUT, there is still Google Maps (earth view) that can be used, IF somebody gets that motivated.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...