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Can you identify this huge automobile?


Peter Gariepy

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Can you identify this huge automobile? The chauffeur is Vernon Rile, born 1902. Worked for my Great Grand Father and my Grand Father, starting when he graduated from High School in 1920. Deceased in 1993. A full and productive life - such gentlemen are scarce.

The license is OHIO 192-

I looked and looked on the WEB, and could not find a look-alike.

If there is a charge, please let me know. I used to belong to the AACA some, maybe 30 years when I had a monstrous Ahrens-Fox.

Thank you for any assistance.

Tom Rentschler, Hamilton OH

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Cadillac indeed, but definitely not V63 of 1923-25. V61 of 1921-22 matches due to the bell-shape headlights and lack of front brakes. Another very important difference which is only apparent if you were riding in one is very significant engine vibration from the single plane 4-cylinder type crankshaft. This was reported to be much more annoying in a closed car such as this. At that time the proportion of closed car sales was increasing. Ernest Seaholm told Maurice Hendry that in his absence from Cadillac for some months in Europe, Charles Kettering saw that the new couterbalanced split-plane crankshaft was put into production. The mathematics was worked out by a GM mathematician Hutchinson. The firing order and sound of the exhausts were different. There was supposed to have been a V8 Hispano Suiza aero engine similarly converted at Wright Field at Dayton around the same period. I have v63 and V61, but I have never ridden in a V61; but I am told that there is a very annoying vibration at about 45mph.

Ivan Saxton

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You are probably correct. I confess I was repeating what Henry Formby called them, and Austin Woodbury of Sydney who also who owned and probably still does own the open car his granfather bought new. I have a 61 open chassis, ie with a touring cowl. There was another restored 61 touring at Dubbo in central NSW in the 60, and after. That reminds me of another difference in that that model and some earlier used an option of huge Rudge Whitworth wire wheels (probably 120mm maximum bearing size), whereas V63 used the same very large Buffalo centrelock wire wheels as were later used in different rim size by J Duesenberg. Another difference between those two very similar models of Cadillac was in the instrument panel, obviously not visible here. I always hope some of this detail may be useful to someone at some time. Ivan Saxton.

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This car is a 1923 or 1924 Peerless seven passenger suburban sedan. The reason it looks like a Cadillac is that in 1922 Collins (president of Cadillac) and most of Cadillac management and engineering staff formed the Collins Corporation and raised 4 million dollars. They bought Peerless stock and took over control of the Peerless Motor Car Company. In August 1922 the new Peerless was introduced. "The traditional Peerless shape radiator was discontinued and the new Peerless takes on the shape of the Cadillac."

This car would be a model 66 V-8 70 HP 128 inch WB

7 pass. suburban sedan list price $4,090

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Dear keiser31, Green Dragon, Ivan, nz, Tom, and Peter,

I've never seen pictures of a '24 Cadillac Sedan, but saw a set of photos of a '24 Peerless V-8 when it was for sale on e-bay a year ago. It had stirrup handles; but the visor supports, bumper and headlights were different. There's a picture of it right here on the AACA web-site. It's one of 7 Peerless pictures on the Photo Gallery up above. What's great is that <span style="font-style: italic">it's taken from the exact same angle</span> as Tom Rentschler's old photo. ----Jeff

p.s: After going to "community", "photo gallery", and "other makes", I searched for "Peerless" to find the color photo of Dave Newland's called "1924 Peerless 8-66".

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I have an original ad for "The New Peerless" August 26, 1922

of the Peerless Suburban Sedan and it is exactly the same as the car pictured. Door handles, sun visor, cowl lights, fenders, radiator and head lamps the same. The only difference I can see is that the Peerless in the ad has a plated radiator and head lamps and the one pictured is black. I would post the picture but I don't know how.

The 1922 Peerless was very similar to the Cadillac but I have no pictures of that era Cadillac to compare. But if this car is a Cadillac it is a twin to the Peerless.

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Peter, can you help in this difference of opinion by bringing up detail of front and rear hubs, and also the area of the top of the radiator and the headlamps. Cadillac had full-floating rear axle, with much larger hubs than the front; and Cadillac mostly hadBosch&Lomb headlamps with a Cadillac crest at the top of the rim.

In the early 1920's a Mr Rentschler was head of Wright when they started to build aircooled radials derived from Lawrance at the behest of the US Navy. He then became disillusioned by the inertia of fellow Wright directors, and moved to Pratt&Whitney to reactivate a moribund subsidiary, which brought about the excellent and very rapid delelopement of the Pratt&Whitney Wasp. Ivan Saxton

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The above Peerless photo, from Peter, has different wheels (look close) and lacks the compartment doors in the left side splash apron. Additionally, the shape of the visor supports are not the same as the mystery car. Also, the fold line in the hood, for the side panels, seems to be slightly higher on the Peerless than on the Cadillac. My vote is for the Cadillac.

Grandpa

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grandpa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The above Peerless photo, from Peter, has different wheels (look close) and lacks the compartment doors in the left side splash apron. Additionally, the shape of the visor supports are not the same as the mystery car. Also, the fold line in the hood, for the side panels, seems to be slightly higher on the Peerless than on the Cadillac. My vote is for the Cadillac.

Grandpa</div></div>

Exactly what I was going to say.

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Of these two I'll go with the Peerless. Look at the roof line at the rear. The Cadillac roof is more rounded, the mystery car is square like the Peerless. Also look at the shape of the back window as seen through the interior of the car. The corners of the window are rounded in the Caddy, very square in both the mystery car and the Peerless.

Actually, I would guess the Cadillac pictures to be a couple of years later than both the Peerless and the car in the original photo.

Don

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Leif,

Thank you for adding the 1922 photo to our discussion. The headlights and front fender leading edges are "spot on" in regard to matching those on the mystery car. At this point, I cannot tell which it is -- Peerless or Cadillac. The photo set I saw of the '24 Peerless showed a removable panel on the splash apron -- similar to what's on the mystery car, but on the r.s. instead of l.s. I did look at The (new) Cadillac Database compiled by Yann Sanders and saw a lot of pictures of '22-'23 Cadillacs that look right. One of them was owned by a Discussion Forum member named Thomas Borchers (looks much like Cadillac in your post). Maybe he could give us some input. Can anyone tell what that emblem is hanging down from the headlight bar?

The other people on this thread are some of most knowledgeable there are about early cars, and I respect their opinions. It would be easier to ID the car if some of the early 20's cars didn't look so much alike. I'm struck by how similar the Rentschler car is to a 1922 Lincoln (except for the radiator shell).

Having read that coachbuilders sometimes supplied the same semi-custom body to more than one carmaker, I wonder if we could be looking at a Fisher body on a Peerless, or a Brunn Body on a Cadillac, etc. --Jeff

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jeff_a.....If you notice, all era cars look similar to one another. 1920s...square. 1930s rounded corners. 1940s...bulbous pontoon fenders. 1950s...big, finned and chrome covered. And so on...Each company seems to restyle after the better selling designs.

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Leif's photois obviously 61 model, except it appears to have front brakes; although a front brake axle from a V63 or 314 cadillac is an easy retrofit, which has usefulness in today's traffic. The larger back hubs for full floating axle is obvious, as is the identical position of the radiator badge, which you can readily see is quite different on the Peerless photo Peter shows us. The big 7 passenger body for my V63 is very similar, and there is a Fisher tag that I found with it. I could not swear that the rear roofline is identical because you nee a 90degree side shot to judge that. And my body was recovered from a Rolls Royce, so it is not possible to know the Cadillac it was built for except it was 132"wb. (The man I got it from was trying to match it to a 138"wb 314 Cadillac, which was not reasonably possible.) Anyway, body details and contours undoubtedly evolved, often gradually. It is nice to learn a bit about the V8 Peerless. I had never seen a photo of one before, let alone an actual car. Ivan Saxton

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I knew that the 1923 Peerless took on the lines of Cadillac but I never realized they were so similar. I have a large ad for the 1923 Peerless suburban sedan and am studying it close. Everything is exactly the same except: headlights are different and the rims. The Peerless ad shows six demountable rim bolts and the car in question has eight. The tires even look to be the same.

Cadillac? Peerless? Looks like they came from the same mold.

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Ivan,

Glad you found the discussion of V-8 Peerless cars interesting. You don't run into Peerlesses as much as, say, Pierce-Arrows or Packards. There is supposedly one Peerless in Australia. More than there are in Idaho, where I live!

I'm engaged in a research project to try locating all the surviving Peerless cars (and trucks) worldwide, and so far I've come up with 276 vehicles (16 countries). Since no one in the world has a database that would allow you to locate all the antique cars that are out there -- my list is, I'm sure, missing dozens or even hundreds of cars that are in obsure places.

If anyone reading this thread was wishing they could get a 20's Cadillac or Peerless for themselves, I noticed there's a 1922 Cadillac, & a 1926 Peerless for sale right now. The Peerless is a Mod. 6-72 5-Passenger Sedan (ebay), & the Cadillac is a Type 61 { may be a Victoria Coupe } (autabuy.com). The Cadillac is in much better shape and for sale at about 20K. The Peerless has a 289 cu. in. six, but appears to be a somewhat larger vehicle. ----Jeff

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To all nice folks interested in the mystery Peerless/Cadillac question:

Regarding the mystery car that I asked about. No one in our family is old enough to recall the early 1920's. Thanks for all the photos and ideas. I have had the original 3 X 4 photo enlarged a partial zillion and a whole zillion fold, and what happens is as it get larger, the grain of the original negative, or the 3 X 4 print or the cyber resolutions makes things too blurred to read. First, the Ohio lisecne remains 192-. The light bar badge MAY read N M A across the top and a serial nember across the bottom. No help. Cannot read the hub caps or the symbol on the bumper. The bumper is obviously an after market item. I have compared the visor brackets, the hubs, the tire mounting bolts, the lack of front brakes, the fender shape and contours, the running boards, the cowl lights, the square cut corners on the rear window and the square cut corners on the rear side windows, and the side "secret" compartment in the splash pan. the stirrup door handles, the headlight lenses, the headlight body shape and the "crown" design on the face of the headlight cowling. I even went to our local historic cemetery, just in case Vernon Rile, the chauffeur might tell me something. That is corny, but I learned so much from him that he sometimes still talks to me about the kind of things a gentlemen would have told a youngster. Although I know he wouldn't be able to tell me anything, I was comforted to visit him.

I have NO anecdotal tales about my Grandfather's cars. BUT based on one difference between a Peerless and a Cadillac, I have decided what this great car is. The car in my photo, and other Cadillacs of that era have about twice the number of side hood loovers as the Peerless from the same vintage, and the items compared above all lean toward [right on!] Cadillac, Model 61, 1922-1923, either a Victoria or a 7-passenger suburban sedan.

Someone wrote about Wright and Pratt-Whitney. That was my great Uncle, Fred Rentschler. He can be Googled.

He was a major owner and head of Republic Automobiles in Hamilton, Ohio from 1909 to 1915. Made between 400 to 1500 two seater sporty and four door open sedans. Once raced Orville Wright in his airplane, and the car lost at over 60 miles an hour.

No records survive, but the factory survives as a remodeled social services headquarters. No automobiles survive, even after nearly 50 years searching by local car buffs and family. But maybe one survives- mis-identified.

If some grandchild can tell me how, I'll post a Republic. In the mean time, I have some info and other have more about Republic, and I will send it all in hard copy, actual size to AACA.

Holy smoke, I have never before written to such a site. Going to send it with regards!!

I was reading Henry V the other day and he said "Health and fair time of day. Joy and good wishes...." Me too sendeth!

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  • 2 years later...

More than two years late ... sorry. Based on original factory merchandising literature from the Cadillac Motor Car Co., this looks very much like their 1922-23 "Type 61" Suburban (image); the Imperial Limousine version was very similar, except it had a "trumpet" horn located near the chauffeur's ear (see detailed image).

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