Local History Dept needs I.D. on this Old Limo please...

Dear friends,

While searching through the Local History Department's

Photo Archives at my local library, I came accross this photo.

This was apparently owned by a local Berkshire County Mass resident in the early part of the last century.

[img:left]http://picasaweb.google.com/CaptainTailfin/UnknownAutos?authkey=5IYExDsd7TI#5298279481408405122

I looked through my "Old Testament", The Standard Catalogue

of American Cars to 1942, and have a few ideas but would like your educated guesses.

I was able to match some details but am puzzeled by what appear to be the reinforced spokes (?) on the rear wheels. Could this be unique only to heavier bodystyles ?

Thank you for sharing your knowledege,

Capt Tailfin,

I have never seen another rear wheel like that except on a 1902 Daimler. I know that the car in question is later. Looks a lot like a Mercer radiator shell, but I don't know if they made limos or town cars.

It has a commercial/hire car look about it.

The large body, heavy duty components eg, back wheels, roof rack, uniformed driver, large tool box and huge 1 piece windscreen etc.

Could it belong to a large estate??

Manuel in Oz

Gentlemen; the extended wheel hubs ,the fender geometry, and the use of the 'hunter style' horn which declined as the years progressed, would indicate to me we're looking at a 1906-1908 vintage machine. The body is most certainly a Vestibule Suburban, or, at the very least, a heavy Broagham. Regards to the rear wheels, they certainly are interesting, what with the added rings intended in all likelyhood to strengthen the wheels; i.e. indicative of early chain drive philosophy. As to the men in the chauffer's compartment, that's just what they should be wearing as proper teamsters/chauffers of the era. As to that large one piece windshield, that's common for the era, as is the roof rack. Doesn't make it either more or less commercial. But yes, it does appear to be a rather heavy vehicle. If it weren't for the rear wheel rings, and the extended wheel hubs, I'd feel more confidant in naming it. I'll prefer to do further research first.

Regards; jerry janson

It appears to have plain bearings on the front axle so could be earlier than 1906 - maybe 1903? Judging from the size of the engine hood, I don't think it is particularly big - maybe 30hp? I wonder if it is an American Berliet?

nzcarnerd; 30 horse could be right, but American Berliet wasn't built until circa'06

underliscense from Berliet. Now, could it be a Berliet perhaps? Imported ?

regards; jerry janson

Would a guess of being a four-cylinder Cadillac be absurd?

No more than my first thought that the car is British. We have an important county just west of London called Berkshire and we had a car called the Star. While playing with the contrast of the photo, there does seem to a be a relief logo on the radiator in shape of a star. The US star was much later. The UK Star was around at the correct period with Landaulette and Limousine bodies, and had larger cars used as cabs. There are a number of correct pointers present on the photo. Attached below is an enlargement of the ‘star’?? Perhaps a better scan by Tailfin could rule it out?

Regards

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org

Do you suppose it was used at one of the Grand Hotels that I believe where around Williamstown/Mt. Greylock area in that day?

West; Any guess is not absurd. On the other hand, I don't see any details that point to Cadillac. Certainly the lamps are not as supplied by Cadillac, Cad never had rims like this car mounted on the rear wheels, and judging from the wheelbase, this is much larger than Caddy for the era of,Im guessing, 06-08.... Finally, look at the close-up that Vintman created of the radiatior, The cap certainly appears to be much different than the Caddy cap.

So, could this be a Peugot by Labourdette ??? what say you Vintman ? regards; jerry janson

As far as the rear wheels are concerned, if they are stock, then I agree. I was surmising that they weren't stock.

There are pictures in the Cadillac book by Hendry that show those headlights.

The length of the wheelbase looks to be that of a four-cylinder Cadillac. It think it's the length of the body, stretched well beyond the rear axel, that makes it look longer. It's also possible that with this most-certainly custom body that the wheelbase was lengthened.

The hub caps look like Cadillac (hexagon), although I can't tell if there is any adornment in the center, which Cadillac had.

Okay. My final guess then I'm going home:

Matheson

Oldiron, ... Peugeot rad had thin sides only between 1906-1908 and the bottom of the rad went below the dumbirons. The picture has it as going only up to it. Otherwise there are some general similarities. Unfortunately there are similarities to many other cars. Cannot go by bodies as these would be made by others and could go on any car. They also look much like each other. Curse of investigating this time period. Still puzzling !

Regards

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org

I scanned 1908 and 1910 Cadillac from my Standard Catalog AM.Cars.When looking at some or a lot of detailes it very much looks like Cadillac.I think that your first guess is right West,Idon`t agree with your second guess.

Leif in Sweden.

Try again and see if this scann is better.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vintman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately there are similarities to many other cars. Cannot go by bodies as these would be made by others and could go on any car. They also look much like each other. Curse of investigating this time period. Still puzzling !

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org

</div></div>

I agree. Here's the Matheson of that period.

Capt Tailfin, Any chance of a high resolution scan of the radiator with the badge please !

Regards

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org

West, and Leif; I agree with the similar looks from the pix as displayed by Leif, but consider these details. The front wheels in Capt Tailfin's photo have 12 spokes. The Caddy wheels in Leif's pictures have only 10 spokes. The front fenders on the '08 Caddy Leif submits are plowshare shaped fenders, not so on the pix of Capt Tailfin. The fenders on the front of the '10 Caddy that Leif submits, have appx a one inch wide flange running on the underside. None on the front fenders of Capt Tailfins carz.

West; with the Matteson I agree................................

Finally,the original of pix of Capt Tailfin is a puzzling picture in that it is so generic. regards; jerry janson

Wow !

What a Great Discussion !

Unfortunately the Berkshire Athenaeum has only a digitalscan of the original photograph,

I have tried enlarging that section, but it becomes too distorted to really confirm OR

deny a STAR emblem, Vintman, so it could be I guess.

In reviewing the book "A Pictorial History of the Automobile" by Peter Roberts

there are shown a couple of cars with similar though not identical appearance namely, a 1906 FIAT on Page 73 generaly

of similar proportion and style particularly in the details of the roof rack and grab handles (Add on Acessories perhaps?)

and also the "bail" handles on the lights, but NOT the upswept rear fenders.

on page 86 a 1906 Model H CADILLAC has the upswept rear fenders

but the hood appears "squarer" and not as sloped at the top and also with different style headlights.

Perhaps forebodingly the description on Page 103

of a 1907 Wollsey Cavollos 40/50 is predictive...

"Looking identical to a DOZEN other limousines of the Edwardian period...."

When I first perused the Standard Catalogue of American Cars up to 1942,I thought perhaps Pierce Arrow (lights in the fenders came later), Cleveland,or an OUTSIDE Chance of the BERKSHIRE locally produced in Pittsfield Mass from 1906 to approx 1912.

Can any lookers rule these out?

Thank you for all your input.

Capt Tailfin

Hi Folks,

I asked our experts to have a look at this one and one wise sage with whom I would not disagree said: 'almost certainly a Mercedes of cca 1908'. As this chap is not often wrong, I would be quite happy to go along with it. My 'star' would be a star but only a three pronged one !!!

Regards

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org

Vintman......Your experts could be correct. Here is a similar Mercedes limo.

I have to disagree with the comments about the date of this car. The fixed wheel rims and plain wheel bearings suggest an early date. I note the Matheson in that pic is chain drive and the mystery car could be also from the look of the boxes in front of the rear wheels. I wonder if those odd looking rear wheels are some form of removeable part of the wheel to aid tyre changing?

I tok another look at the original photo. Am I correct that the rear part has glass all around, including curved glass. I would expect it is a custom body unless someone knows what cars had glass like that.

John

Yes, it is curved glass. But, I agree that we cannot determine the make of this car by the body.

I do not seem to have in my records any body that has rear glassworks quite like this car. I am therefore minded to think that it could be American built. Would be interesting if anybody could pinpoint the bodymaker. If the body is American, and if the chassis was a Mercedes, it could be an American Mercedes. Daimler had a company in, and connections with, US from 1888 and started car manufacture in US based on the Mercedes 40 and 45 in 1906. One would assume that this would probably have been based a tried-and-tested earlier designs. It seems that the factory burnt down in 1907 and production was never resumed. During this period Daimler manufactured both chain drive and prop drive cars in parallel, and this continued for a number of years. It was down to the client to chose. Therefore it seems that precise dating of a Daimler cannot me made strictly on ‘did it have chain drive’. The photo in question does have chain drive and does seem to have the brass cap of the Daimler type on the chain housing.

Kind Regards

Vintman (UK)

www.svvs.org