Question about a 1922 Stutz roadster

I work for a private museum and part of the collection is a 1922 Stutz roadster. Since I started to work there in '04, the ownwer told me he had trouble starting the car for several years, and wanted me to check it out. After an exhaustive effort of several months, I have finally concluded that the valve springs are weak. (The owner was convinced that the valve lifters were sticking) The owner is reluctant to take the engine apart to replace the valve springs. He doesn't seem to know where I'd find replacements. I'm sure there is a place where they might be located. In order to make a quick fix so the engine will start, I fashioned some valve spring jacks using knurlned nuts. They're grooved, and will not be ejected when the engine starts. This quick-fix seems to work well. It starts every time now, because the valves close and it gets the compression it needs to start, and the remain in place. It only cranked over for about 5 seconds this morning before starting. That's a record for this vehicle! My question is: does anyone have information as to where I might look for valve springs? Here's a pic of the car with me in the driver's seat.

The engine is a flathead 4 cylinder with dual ignition and 16 valves. Things I forgot to mention in the first post. email: poobie1936@yahoo.com Thanks!

One more pic-a frontal view.

The problem is almost certainly with the cam followers. The bodies of these are zinc-based die castings, which long pre-dated knowledge that impurities of lead and cadmium at very low level compromise the dimensional stability long term. The motor for my detacheable head K has been in good dry storeage since I got it 30 odd years ago, and it would turn over then. Cam followers are frozen tight now. Fred Edwards made a foundry pattern, so we both have sg cast iron replacements. The other diecast item on these cars that is a problem is the brush holder/end bearing end piece of the starter. These crumble to pieces. I made new ones of steel for Fred, for John Ryder, and myself. the only one that I have finished completely was the one for Bill Greer; whose Bearcat had not run for several years because of it. I rang him right after I sent it to alert him that it would arrive by Fedex in several days. Then we had an argument. I reminded him that he had been pivotal in starting the Stutz Club and had done the Newsletter since then. That is a great deal in all that he had done for the benefit of a lot of people; and it would be a pretty poor world if someone could not enjoy the priviledge of doing something for him at no cost. I possibly have a spare one 95% done.

Ivan Saxton

Thank you for the information! That puts a different slant on the problem! Now, I have to ask you.......do you yet have the foundry pattern for the lifters? Or perhaps any castings? I have also noticed that a part of the starter end plate is broken off. It doesn't affect the starter-YET, but according to what you stated, it seems likely to become worse. Do you still have a spare or the blueprints to make a new one? Thank you so very much! (I'm checking with the owner as to the cost of bringing the engine up to standard again.)

I just rang Fred at work, and he still has the pattern and can get more cast. He did not have a clue how much the castings cost each now, because it is a few years since he had some done. He does get castings for his business there, so he doesn't get ripped off. We have to get a set for John Ryder, too; so I'll have to machine his as well as my own. The SG cast iron is a good choice because it is tough. These still have the location index as the originals.

If it is the cam followers growing you have to take out valves before you can fix it anyway. If you want to check valve spring strength you can most easily do that with a drill press and the bathroom scales, with different length loose plugs inside the coil spring so you check at seated length and valve open. Probably Paul Freehill or maybe Fred Hoch can tell you what you should have. It is not expensive to get some made by a spring maker.

I recall Bill's starter made a mess when the end plate disintegrated; and they had to drop the sump to dress up some of the teeth on the flywheel. You should be able to judge how long yours is still serviceable. But I'll check whether I have an extra made, and I can certainly sketch and dimension it for you. I made these for a ball bearing, and you have to use a top-hat sleeve on the end of the armature shaft; so they look a little different.

Ivan Saxton

WOW! That's a lot of info! Thank you so very much. I will check with the owner to see if he wants to have a set of the cast iron lifters. He may or may not. I have a friend who has a machine shop so he would be able to make an end plate for the starter, so a diagram would be great to have. Perhaps you could email me a copy? The one on this car seems to be OK for now, with just a chunk missing from the very top. This car has 19,000 actual miles and is in top shape otherwise. My email again: poobie1936@yahoo.com

I have a 24 Stutz with the same DH engine and similar original miles (27k in my case). My valves began to stick causing hard starting, backfiring, and poor running until the engine warmed up and they freed up. My engine has never been apart and it looked like taking that head off would be a MAJOR project as the studs are likely rusted into the head. So, I tried a plan B with total success. It was a 3 part plan that consisted of:

1) removing the access plates and lubricating the lifters

2) adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the oil

3) adding Seafoam to the fuel each fill after injecting a big dose right into the carb air intake at the outset

I have never been the kind to try "miracle mystery" type products, and did this on advice of some of my HCCA friends. Well, within one tank of fuel my valve sticking was gone. I would try this before you pull that head.

Dan

I made a mixture of Marvel Mystery oil and tranny fluid and squirted the lifters really well with the stuff. It seemed to help, but the best soloution so far has been to put spring jacks in the valve springs. It gives the springs more pressure, and they seem to operate the lifters OK now. It starts up every time now. I just hope it lasts. I don't intend to dissemble the engine. That's a no-no.

Hello Ivan,

I realize that I am changing the subject of this post slightly but the pot metal end plate, which holds the bushes, on my 1925 Stutz 693 Remy 917-R generator is deteriorating as the referenced starter end plate is in this post.

I am having a pattern made in order to cast the part in aluminum.

I have yet to locate a machinist locally to finish the casting.

Do you have any thoughts on the subject?

The ignition point pivoting mounting plate on the distributor, a Remy 626-J is also pot metal and just starting to swell. The point plate does not pivot.

Thank you in advance and any guidance will be greatly appreciate. This is my first Stutz project and my first project with a car of the this era. I am an hobby mechanic and working on the Stutz myself as much as I can.

I agree with your comments about Bill Greer. When we became members of the Stutz club, Bill sent a hand written welcome letter. We met Bill and a few Stutz owners at the September 2007 Stutz Gathering.

That is a mess like my original starter ends, Dan. I hope you have a lathe, because this is the sort of job that you would never want to do commercially, but only for yourself. This is what I did with the starter ends except that I did one each for Bill, Fred Edewards, and John Ryder, who I knew needed them; plus a couple of spares beyond my own. Even with "knife and fork" methods, it is a bit quicker to do a small batch because you know what you are doing. It is a bit like Henry Leland's answer to the British who wanted to know how he built Cadillacs with interchangeable parts. He said words to the effect "It is really a very simple process. First you have to decide what you want to do and how you are going to do it. Then you have to do it the way you decided." There is generally a bit of welding as well as machining in making substitute diecast bits in steel. Bill Orde restored an early 20's Stutz ohv 6 probably 30 nyears ago. I'll ask him if there were any problems with the generator on it as you show, but I dont recall he did. Bill's trade was in automotive electrical repairs, and they didn't wast time when they were rewinding. He said they were allowed 45 minutes to clean, trip, rewind, assemble and test a 12v Northeast from a Dodge 4. Several years ago I recall there was an event in notice that his old boss had just completed his first 100 years. He was pretty canny with a pound, and he would book a T Ford in all day to carge the magnets of the flywheel, and charge accordingly when the job actually took minutes without dismantling. I'll get my son to post photos of one of the starter ends.

Ivan

Ivan,

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with your comment that this type of repair work is as much art as it is skill.

Dan

This has been an interesting read. I have a friend with a '21 Bulldog and back in the '60s I remember he had the same problems with the cam follower bodies and the starter end plate. He had new pieces cast at that time. The original cam follower bodies not only swell, they will also break sometimes, which of course shuts you down.

Can anyone give me the arm length dimension for the front Hartford dampers for thes late 4cylinder Stutz. What I need is the length from the center of the pivot to the end of the plate where it is rivetted to the end piece. I have a pair of sad original rears to copy, and do not know if the fronts are the same length. Ivan Saxton

When I first saw this was about a starter, I was goingto suggest contacting Bill Greer. The problems with his Bearcat were huge. I'm glad Ivan beat me to it, he knows much more about the situation than I do.

I don't have anything else to add except to say that Bill's a hero of the Club and antique cars in general. A great guy.

You are absolutely correct about cam followers. Do you still have foundry pattern?