1920s Modified Roadster Identity

Can anyone verify the identify this car. Any help would be appreciated. The car has been rebodied. Paint and Convertible top are customized. The hood louvers and the top of the doors may have been modified as well.

Peter Tacy

I'd peg it as a circa 1922 Duesenberg with cut down doors and newer front fenders grafted on. The radiator shell, hood, hood louvers, chassis valance and body lines all say Duesenberg to me. Note how the long front fender has been mated (rather crudely) aft of the firewall to the chassis valance.

The lock box on the valance is another clue to its Duesey origins.

Very cool photo!

TG

Tom

I agree with you. I photographed a 1923 Duesenberg "A" roadster and a 1927 Duesenberg "X" roadster, both with sweeping front fenders. The lock box on the valance does not resemble that of Duesenberg, other than it's in the same spot. Duesenberg's door was slightly larger. The number of louvers on the hood of the car in the vintage photo (5) would indicate an earlier car (I think).

After looking further at other Model A Duesenbergs, I'd have to make a guess that the fenders on the green roadster that I photographed are not correct.

I would not be game to state that the body is a replacement, nor that it is 1922. The front mudguards look a bit late 1920's Cadillac, just because of the shape around the edge; but the rar mudguards could be original. I would have expected the steering drag link to be straight. I cannot lay a hand on Fred Roe's book right now, but there were cars with longer front mudguards such as the very early Brunn touring photographed on the street outside the Brunn works with chassis incomplete (no brakes. One feature that would identify a car as 1922 would be lack of strengthening trusses under the chassis side rails; but the photo would have to be taken about a foot from the ground to show that. (Those trusses probably started late 1922.)

To me, the body looks as though it might be a custom job, possibly built in California inspired by Tom Mix's roadster, which is believed to be one of the first handfull of production cars. The steering wheel is different on my car, which was the 30th made (from the numbers). One interesting feature of these cars is that the drive xles are hollow right through, and are integral with the Rudge Whitworth hubs. I have never shone a torch to check, but they would need a welch plug in the end to stop the gear oil leaking out.

Ivan Saxton

There is a picture of a very late A model dual cowl phaeton on p105 of Fred Roe's book Duesenberg: The Persuit of Perfection.

The mudguards match with the front on the roadster above, except that the phaeton has a sidemount spare.

You cannot take any notice of the pattern of bonnet sides on A model Duesenbergs, because there are so many variations. Variations were likely often decided between the customer and the body builder.

The roadster of your photograph, West, is car 773, engine 1173; a 1923 car that was owned by Fred Benson for many years. It is on p88 of Fred Roe's book. He indicates that he considers the mudguards may not be original; but it can be very difficult to be certain unless you can examine a car minutely and/or have good detail of its history. Some of the earier ones of the general style but without an edge moulding were of the first L-head Mercers in 1915. The bonnet sides in that picture are different to those on any other known car or photo; but that is a trivial alteration that can be done on a nibbler like Trumpf or Pullmax very quickly once you have made the slit-and-form tool you want. (Probably less than a morning's work if you are set up).

When I went to Auburn in the early 1980's I met Fred Benson there. He was a couple of inches taller than I, probably 6ft 4"; and a bit unroadworthy because he was on crutches, from memory. I talked to him about A models, and he invited me to visit him at his home; but I regret I was not able to manage that. He subsequently sent me a set of blueprints for making the brake master cylinder that I do not have for my car.

Ivan Saxton

I asked Randy Ema about this car. Randy is one of the most knowledgeable Duesenberg historians and I'm quite certain he knows where every existing Duesenberg is located. Here is his take on this.

"West, Yes, it is a Duesenberg "A." No, it is not an original body. Looks, in fact, to be home built on a long wheelbase chassis. No, it does not survive in that form today. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, as it is a new one to me. Randy."

Duesenberg. The Hood and radiator shell does look like it could be.

I have also looked through the former owners notes and nothing mentions a Duesenberg. He did have Stutz, Cole Eights, and Auburns. Out of the huge volume of pictures, I have not been able to identify this car.

His vehicles were heavily modified even in the Twenties.

Peter

Many thanks to all who have commented on this vehicle.

Peter Tacy

Wow West,

Pretty cool when the opinion is seconded by Mr. Duesenberg, Randy Ema. It's probably too early to change my signature to "Dr. Thom,"

like that bald guy from Texas who gives people advice on TV...

Astonishingly,

TG

Can someone show the picture to Fred Roe in Andover Mass., because he is probably the leading expert on pre-J model Duesenbergs. Ray Wolff and Hugo Pfau might have been enlightening if they were still around. On consideration, I would say that it is likeley to have been a late A model just before the model X. I believe that the drop in the steering drag ling would be late, whereas my 1922 car has a straight one. I would guess that the front mudguards (or fenders) are correct as they match pictures of other A models in Fred Roe's book. Modifications could include the top of the doors, the paint job to copy Auburn style, and the narrow beading on the lower edge. This could well be lead loading. (Have you seen a photo of a 1935 Auburn speedster after a garage fire? I have one somewhere from Auburn 1980. All the mouldings were done with body solder.) The one item that really looks out of place is the rear mudguard (fender) lacking the edge moulding to match the front ones.

I understand that Randy has all the surviving Duesenberg factory blueprints, ex Marshal Merkes.

Ivan Saxton

Yes. It seems odd that the front and rear fenders are different. But the rear fender definitely looks to be Duesenberg, as it matches the X fender above, which matches many A fenders as well. The other question that pops into mind is "why does the valance panel appear to be in two pieces?"

West,

I'd say the valance is in two pieces 'cause the long fender and front third of the valance are one piece, grafted on (not too smoothly) at the leading edge of the runningboard.

Why else would the two bolts be visible; I'd agree with Ivan's previous post that the front fenders are from a much later model, which one is anyone's guess.

TG

If you look at the top photo on p105 in Fred Roe's book on Duesenberg ISBN 090 156432X West, you will see fenders virtually the same as the fronts on the mystery car, except that it has side-mounted spare wheel in a wheel well. I could not say that the rear has a moulding not visible due to some photographic optical effect. They look similar to earlier A model. (I'll ask my son to have a play with the picture on his computer to try to detect if any sign of a moulding might come up, but I doubt it.)

Looking at all the A photos, the prevalent characteristic of the valance panels on most cars is that there is a wide radius at the front, possibly as much as 3" rad, grading to almost a square bend at the rear. Few, early cars have an even radius on that fold as does this mystery car. Duesenberg made no production bodies, and even if they may have had standard item fenders and valances that could be provided with the chassis to the bodybuilder, a lot of buyers of expensive cars likely had definite ideas about style, as did coachbuilders such as Brunn, Fleetwood, and LeBaron. The outcome would have been mostly decided between coachbuilder and client. Duesenberg seldom had the problem of too many cash customers for the cars they had capacity to build,(as Mercer apparently did). OK, the join in the valance panel does indicate that it was non-standard. Most probable reason may be that whoever made that only had a 6 ft folder that could not form the whole length.

The one item that definitely looks wrong is that steering drag link with a bend in it like an 8 cyl Stutz. No photo I have access to of any A or X that shows detail of the left side, showing this, has other than a straight one.

PS Error in previous post is that Fred Roe is at Holliston MA, (not Andover, (I must have been thinking of Karl Killorin at Andover, who has left us). IES

TG, West, and Ivan,

Again, huge thanks to everyone who has commented.

Consensus is the mystery car's radiator shell, hood are Model A Duesenberg. It is possible and even likely the body, rear fenders, running boards, and rear half of the valence is also from a Duesenberg.

The front fenders and the front half of the valence may be from something else. I could not find a match.

I could not find any photos that matched the mystery car body.

Ivan, you may be on to something. I just looked at many photos of A or X Duesenbergs showing the steering drag links. The Duesenbergs that I could view are all straight. The only ones that had a similar steering drag link bend was some of the the Stutz vehicles.

See steering drag link bends in many of the photos from the website link below. BTW this site is selling a treasure trove of beautiful Stutz literature. Steering drag link bends in the photos are similar to the mystery car. Only a Stutz aficionado would know.

http://stores.ebay.ca/Walter-Miller-Auto...9QQftidZ2QQtZkm

Limited indication is that the chassis or the steering system may be Stutz.

That sums up my running theory now.

Many thanks to all,

Peter Tacy

In other words, "Itsa Bitsa."

I do have to politely disagree with you West. It is a standard wheelbase A model Duesenberg that has been personalised. It is not a car that saw heavy use. Just look at the sheet metal for ripples and scratches. They did not have the refinishing systems and equipment then that benefit us now. The Rudge 80 wire wheels and the brakes are right for Duesenberg, and that black hole where the back hubcap is missing does not have an axle nut or a fully floating drive axle end which would be visible if it were from any other car. Those Duesenberg drive axles which are integral with their Rudge hubs and are hollow right through, are just one of many features that I always show to people who come here and are not familiar.

It is very difficult to get accurate scale off photos, because unless the shot is taken exactly midway between the axles and at 90 degrees, the wheels are slightly different size, and the 23" wheels are the only thing that you can scale from. However, it is clearly the standard wheelbase of 134". The rare long wheelbase of 141" is quite different by eye. It would be all out of whack for a roadster like this one.

I am reasonably familiar with A Duesenbergs. I have an early one, the 30th car made; and by duplicating some missing parts like radiator, firewall, and diff centre, I will also be able to restore a 1923 car with matching numbers.

I wish someone would show that picture to Fred Roe for his opinion, because he is the ultimate authority on these cars.

Ivan Saxton

This comment is for the post by West Peterson on 7-10-08:

The blue colored 1927 Duesenberg Model X boattail speedster (pictured in your post) has the correct fenders. The sweep fenders on 1926 and older Model A Duesenbergs are not original. I am a former owner of the 1927 Model X boattail speedster from 1967 until 1982. This car is well documented with several pictures taken in the Duesenberg factory prior to delivery. Only one Model X boattail speedster was made. An interesting feature of the car is that it was made without a top and without windshield wipers. The dark blue color is the original color of the car.

Grandpa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grandpa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This comment is for the post by West Peterson on 7-10-08:

The blue colored 1927 Duesenberg Model X boattail speedster (pictured in your post) has the correct fenders. Grandpa

</div></div>

Thanks, Grandpa

I was aware of that. If I made a statement that led anyone to believe otherwise, I apologize.

Grandpa,

As soon as I saw the photo of the deep blue Boat Tail Duesenberg, I wondered about the body designer. Was that designed by Alan Leamy? It really is quite a beautiful automobile.

I am still adjusting to the unexpected Duesenberg origin of the mystery car.

Peter Tacy

McFarlan built it... I believe the design, with some modifications, was used for the upcoming Auburn boattail speedster.

I was surprised to see the 1927 Duesenberg Boat Tail in question today (August 3, 2007. It was at the Meadow Brook Concours d'Elegance in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

Take a look at how beautiful it looks today.

Peter Tacy

Regarding Peter Tacy's question about whether Al Leamy was the designer of the Model X Duesenberg boat tail speedster, his wife Agnes and I discussed his designs numerous times when I was researching for the Al Leamy article that I wrote for the March-April 1974 issue of Antique Automobile. She was quite knowlegeable and very much dedicated to, and in awe of his work. Interestingly, she never once indicated that she thought he had had involvement with Duesenberg designs, except for some conceptuan drawings he did, which were donated to the ACD Museum. Dave

Hi Forum Members,

More on the 1927 Duesenberg Model X Boat Tail Speedster - - This car had a very hard life and was near death when found.

Photo 1 - Taken in the Duesenberg factory prior to delivery.

Photo 2 - First owner in Florida.

Photo 3 - As customized in the early 1940s (with Buick engine).

Photo 4 - As found (about 1953)

Photo 5 - Original engine as found in wood pile (about 1953).

Grandpa

It is good to see an important Duesenberg saved.

The history including the averted demise of the Duesenberg makes it even more impressive.

I have found a back issue of the March-April 1974 Antique Automobile magazine. I'll read the Leamy article when i receive it.

In addition to the ID of the mystery car that started this thread, I have been looking for the designer of the 1928 Auburn Boattail. The Auburn Boattails (1928-1930) appear to have taken some design cues from the 1927 Duesenberg Boattail. Several internet searches indicate that the 1928 Auburn Boattail was designed by Leamy or Leamy and Buehrig. This is surprising since Leamy arrived at Auburn in 1928. One source lists Alexis de Sakhnoffsky as the designer of the 1928 Auburn Boattail for the Hayes Body Company of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Peter Tacy