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Resto Rod ????


Guest 1956Packard

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Guest superods

Both sides of the Coin ....

A complete street rod chassis costs you 10k. A body is 10 more. Add engine and trans at 8... paint and interior 12k. So after shelling out 40k plus you are ready to purchase every other part to complete the project. Doing it yourself, if capable, it should cost you another 20k. 60k later, give or take, you are the proud owner of a lovely 1932 Ford streetrod....one of 10,000 people who own their version of the same. You take it to your first car show....and 500 of those 10,000 show up. Holy Moly...you are never more aware of what it is you did until you do it! Regardless, that is the reality of the decision made to undertake that project.

On the other side of the coin...

You buy that 33 Packard Club Sedan for 35K with an engine problem. You change all the mechanicals and keep everything else the same. That costs you 10k. Do new paint and interior and it costs you 15 more. You and the Ford man are within dollars of each other at 60k. You see him there with his other 499 "friends". Would you trade him even and become one of the crowd? I dare say there would not be many who would......did I say that ??? I think you get the idea. Supply and demand is what makes America the Beautiful.

Just another perspective...mine

Given those circumstances ...what would you do.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both sides of the Coin ....

Given those circumstances ...what would you do.

</div></div>

Why rod the car at all? I would simply fix the original Packard engine and take it to the car shows as a Packard. Even a $20,000 engine rebuild would be preferrable to dropping some ubiquitous modern engine into it and destroying another piece of Classic Era history.

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If everybody knows an example that still doesn't make it statistically prove-able that this is now the norm. I agree there must be some cases. I have never talked to anyone at a show with a project in mind that is dumb enough or rich enough to throw 35K at a car just for the creaky 75 year old body when he can buy a NEW one for under 10K.

The super rich azzholes that haunt places like Barret Jackson are NOT typical auto enthusiasts. While some of them might have funding to invest 35K into a car and then hope to sell everything except the body, they would be the 1st to tell you it was not a good investment. They are a minority. Have to store the vehicle, strip off parts, advertise, haggle prices.

Those people won't do that. It would be poor business indeed to have invested in what is essentially a bunch of parts with no guaranty of selling them all. The people that drop 100 grand at auctions may be azzholes but they are not necessarily bad businessmen.

True rodders actually like to work on and refurbish old parts- junkyard bodies included. You got three choices if you're lookin for a body 1. Junkyard-cheap 2. Glass- very cheap realtive to new 3. Steel repro- cheaper than you think, and new.

Or there's #4- Invest 35 large in a restored car. Go through the further expense of pulling body parts off and having them stripped to metal then massaged, filled as needed, repainted and clearcoated. Then begin the hassle of storage, paying for ads, shipping parts after haggling prices and still having an accumulation of stuff nobody wants. How does that "pay" for a project in any expedient way?

Selling parts is not easy in any sense either. Our rodder has his project car AND what is basically a body-less car that should, if all goes as planned, become a used parts for sale pile in his garage taking up space.

Any and all way are cheaper in investment than 35K for an era body. It's a non-sequitar to believe that the 35K body is not going to require body shop attention same as glass, repro or junkyard. In fact it will need more probably to take it down to metal and back to paint again- more than a junkyard body where you're only bringing it up instead of down and up again.

The rods that continually arrive at cruise ins and shows were converted decades ago and by their owners' admissions have seen multiple incarnations/rebuilds. They've had their chassis strengthened or modernized with up-to-date-replicas.

No rodder has the least fantasy that a 75 year old chassis designed for 85-150 HP will lend itself to the application of 4-500 HP to the ground. By the time one contemplates cutting it up and welding in modern sub-sections without guaranteed results it is easy to see that 8 grand for a NEW, modern rolling chassis is the only way to go.

Sure this doesn't exclude the instances when capable people with torches don't do it to create something more unique.

If I'm not a rodder and can find repro steel 32 Ford bodies in 2 minutes for 8K why would I pay "high teens" for glass or more for sombody else's metal body?

I think you wouldn't like the result, Superods, if you bought the 35K car and put 10K more into it. It would always be a compromise. And as for building another in any case, yes, you'd have the zillionth 30s rod. But every 30s stocker looks the same as the next too! If I see the same, except for paint color, 30s-something Ford or another black Model A at every auto event what's the difference from seeing similar, modified cars(rods)of the same era? It becomes redundant.

For that matter how many Tri 5 Chevies do I have to see till I've seen enough? Face it. Looking at the same cars stock or modded is boring. There is nothing out there outside of museums that is so rare that you haven't seen others.

When you do go to a cruise in you will see many same year cars. If my friend's stock 51 Ford sits alongside of a 51 that has a modern 302 V-8 but is stock bodied, who is going to know the difference since they both keep the hoods closed? The 302 is even muffled down so it is not a rumbler.

Viewers look at the outside of the cars and appreciate them both. Yet only a purist would wince if he knew. The average person would find a hard time rationalizing why it is not OK to update the engine considering the cost of rebuilding flatheads and the limited people who do them anynore.

It's certainly not got anything to do with evaluation since modified cars command as much and more than originals.

I'm asked to believe this is the normal logic employed instead of the occassional and I can't believe it. Empirical data is not trustworthy in any sense. If Hagerty or an industry organizstion of that stature produced a comprehensive study leaning in that direction it would hold some water beyond hearsay.

Sorry but no one is about to convince me that the majority of people are now buying cars just for the bodies. It's an isolated minority at best. TV shows sillyness excluded.

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Guest 1956Packard

Sorry Twitch, You're not convincing me.

We'll have to get together over an ale in a few years. Hopefully you're the one saying I told you so......

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Guest prof pat

I do understand that none of us want "rare" or "original" antique cars cut up to make hot rods, however many of our "Kind" seem to do nothing to stop this trend. I happen to have two second owner, all original chevy's, be it not packards, but rare and all original. Two often, cars like this one 230230101605 on ebay just go by the way side. And are picked up by hot rodders. Don't get me wrong, I have owned a few "hot rods", I got them that way, and enjoyed them while I had them, but cut up an all original, no way.

Example there is a clean 1936, convertable Packard that some one cut the fire wall out of, and removed the engine and trans to make a hot rod, in a barn down the road. The fellow who ownes it now, has been going to work on it since 1972, but I doubt he will ever do anything with it but stare at it saying one day......He has my name and number, and my promise that it will go back to original. But who knows.

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Guest superods

Twitch...you have missed the entire point.

Let me try to explain it in a manner you will understand.

I will pay you, or anyone else for that matter, 35k for any 1930 thru 1934 Packard coupe, convertible coupe, 5 passenger coupe, or club sedan I would like to add to my collection of automobiles. It need not even be driveable, but must be in excellent restorable condition. Not only will you get a pocket full of cash for what you just sold me, you may keep the motor, the trans, and all suspension parts, to include the tires and wheels. I have no need for them. And trust me, I will put to good use the remainder of the items in each car I purchase, that I guarantee you sir. Now do you have a moniker for me, given the above circumstance?

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Guest imported_Speedster

SuperRods,

For many of us, It's All about Saving original Packards from your kind of Distruction, Not Just about Making Money, as it evidently is for You. mad.gif

We are in this for the Love of the Hobby, not as a business to make a profit, on these rare and great automobiles.

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Twitch, I think the guys doing this to Packards probably aren't building the cars themselves. They write a check, someone else builds it for them, then handles the "disposal" of the remains once work is done.

You can't get a new steel body for under $20K, and if you want a Dearborn Deuce body, the wait is 3 years and $25K. Personally, I like virgin steel and am willing to pay for it, but more importantly, I have no guilt about cutting up an original car. And even though '32 Ford 3-windows are the bellybutton of the rodding world, it doesn't make me want one less.

On the other hand, if you want different and don't want/can't afford Foose to build you a 100% unique hand-built piece of art, you have to do something other than a Ford. The "dare to be different" movement for a while was doing wagons, but now that wagons are commonplace, the next frontier for the "different" folks are the big classics. They have the money to buy anything they want, and what they want is a car that looks like a Packard, but drives like, well, at least a modern truck, if not exactly a modern car.

There's A LOT of money in the rodding industry, <span style="font-style: italic">vastly</span> more than in the antique car hobby. Anyone been to SEMA? It makes Hershey look like a garage sale. There's A LOT of money driving that side of the hobby, and a lot of companies who want nothing more than for customers to cut up every single old car and fill it full of their products. We're just a bunch of guys who love old cars. We don't have a chance against an industry with billions of dollars in marketing.

Ask the guys with the traditional rods that are still in primer what they think of the checkbook rods made from Packards. They hate 'em more than we do and believe that they are ruining the <span style="font-style: italic">rodding</span> hobby. To me, Packards and other heavy classics rarely look right as rods. The fat tires sticking out of the sidemounts always look goofy, and inevitably they choose the wrong color. Packards shouldn't be yellow or teal or peach. No matter how nice the work is, the guy who rods a Classic is like an art collector who puts this in his living room:

The%20Worst%20Painting%20in%20the%20World.jpg

instead of this:

monalisa.jpg

You spent a pile of money, but you still look like a doofus.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Twitch...you have missed the entire point.

</div></div>

The guys on the AACA side know that I've been posting on this topic for the better part of 5 years now, ever since I first saw a Lincoln KB that had suffered this fate. Twitch is among a cadre of guys who either deny this exists out of fear and disbelief or deny it's a problem because their libertarian outlook on life outweighs their love of cars (or their ability to conceive of influencing others). Often I think it's all of those.

Denial is the first object that needs to be defeated, which may mean leaving some behind (like Twitch). He's hardly alone:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lost?

It's right there.

When it's crushed, then it's lost. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Supply and demand is what makes America the Beautiful.

</div></div>

If you read the latest AACA thread on this subject that Matt linked here, you'll see how pervasive the drive to ignore this is. Also you'll see how I've been trying to steer the argument towards making authentic cars more visible to counteract the street rods.

Every other angle, especially including the oh-so-doable economics of cutting up restored cars, has been beaten to death on numerous threads. To put it simply, there isn't a car in existence that is in the clear for being rodded by someone. None.

I had a thread a few years ago called "Lost Souls" on the now defunct Rant & Raves Forum which was nothing more than a series of copied images of Full Classics and even rarer cars that had been recently rodded. I was well over 200 when I quit posting images. Probably 30 or more were Packards. It got to where I avoided posting more of them to save room for other marques.

At first a lot of guys mocked the thread and the (unspoken) meaning behind it. But the repetition of the images eventually made the point all too clear. frown.gif Maybe someone should start a similar thread here.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...No matter how nice the work is, the guy who rods a Classic is like an art collector who puts this in his living room:

The%20Worst%20Painting%20in%20the%20World.jpg

instead of this:

monalisa.jpg

You spent a pile of money, but you still look like a doofus. </div></div>

Matt,

As much as I (strongly) agree with your sentiments here, I think it is this kind of attitude that drives <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> people into the rodding community, rather than less. It essentially makes super-rods into <span style="font-style: italic">forbidden fruit</span>. Now suddenly it's cool to defy "convention" by consuming these cars in this manner.

Also frankly, some of them do look good and I'm sure many of them drive better than any stock Packard ever could.

You could also make one he!! of a Thanksgiving dinner out of a nice California condor. sick.gif

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Dear All,

This is an interesting thread with a nice variety of opinions. And, that is what they are: opinions. For this question, in a free society, no right answer.

Now, I am a libertarian (small l) and I think that folks are definitely well in their rights to do with their money what they want; assuming such activities do no harm to others. And certainly rodding a Packard does no harm to anyone but the rodder. That said, the rodder does do some harm.

Classic cars are rolling pieces of history and art. Regardless of cost, destroying history and/or art should be discouraged. One cannot recreate history or art, at least not in its original form. Therefore, rodding does harm not to any particular individual, but to an idea.

In my OPINION, the destruction of a classic car is a double intellectual slam, as it eliminates one more piece of both history and art. Many folks lament the decline in the arts, or in history or mathematics or whatever intellectual pursuit. I happen to be one of those folks. So, to do my part, I work on keeping my two classics as classics. And all of us that do such work, at whatever level, are pursuing that preservation of art and history.

Continued preservation of classics, however, requires that intellectual sense must trump those forces that want to rod a classic Packard or similar car. As others have said, the best way to do this is get out and drive; and while your at it, talk. Talk about history and art. Talk about the role these cars played in the development of the modern world. Suggest books and websites for interested folks (particularly those younger than you - whatever your age) to read and visit. In particular, be excited about your subject.

Free peoples are free to do what they want. This thread is not about stopping someone from doing what they want; it is about changing what they want to do. Show a benefit to an activity, and many folks will follow.

Cheers,

Tom

p.s. edited for a spelling mistake.

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Well put, Tom. You make a good argument without being offensive. To me it just comes down to differing philosophies. You either recognize and value originality as a collector or you don't.

On the plus side while many of the older collectors are less active, sometimes that family treasure is rediscovered and preserved by the next generation. I think this is the case with a few of you guys on the Packard forum if I am not mistaken. Great to see them on the road again. Promoting the (antique) hobby is always a good thing. My personal goal this year is to increase the pre-war participation at our annual spring show here in CT.

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Guest imported_Speedster

I hope everyone realizes that member 'superods', that posted above (I think twice in this thread), is the Main person Responsible for the distruction of early '30s Packards, to make Retro-rods. I'm just surprised there are not more comments directed to him, so thought I would mention that?

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Guest superods

Speedster...I believe everyone but you uses this medium as intended...for an exchange of ideas and to help others. You are far to generous with your description of just who it is I am. Trust me, I am far less influential than you realize. So much so, you would feel badly about what you say about me to others if you knew the absolute truth.

In that light, if you would like to know more, and or, keep up on just what it is I am doing, you may do so by logging on and browsing my website.....

http://www.packardrefitters.com

Keep up those great posts of yours Speedster...I feel #4875 will be made within the hour !

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speedster... if you would like to know more, and or, keep up on just what it is I am doing, you may do so by logging on and browsing my website.....</div></div>

You take advantage to advertise your website, ever chance you get, don't you. smirk.gif

I've been there, and I Don't Like anything about what you are doing to Packards.

No one tries to help others more than I, but Yes, I'm also always very Vocal when I find out about someone doing something Very WRONG.

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Guest 1956Packard

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

In that light, if you would like to know more, and or, keep up on just what it is I am doing, you may do so by logging on and browsing my website.....

</div></div>

Superods.

Thanks for the post, I had no idea.

Twitch.

Want to sit down over that ale now?

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Alright who wants to come to Illinois and help me put my car back together with all the original parts I have laying around the garage smile.gif

This thread has been very interesting to read on both sides of the restoration process.

Forgot to add I have a bunch of different Ales in my fridge as we all talk and share ideas while putting my car back together smile.gif

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Guest imported_Speedster

But, puttin' it Back Together is the Fun part. We wouldn't want to Deprive you of All that Fun. grin.gif

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Alright I will throw some good steaks on the grill then also. smile.gif

I know the fun part in trying to put it back together. That is as long as you remember where you stored everything smile.gif.

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Guest imported_Speedster

Yes, That's definitely 'Not Fun', finding the parts you need next. cry.gif

I usually keep parts labeled and boxed by catagory, but I've sometime looked for days before finding a part in the bottom of a box that the part should never have been close to.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 1933 Packard Super 8 Club Sedan listed for 37k in Hemmings. It had some issues according to the man at Victory Cars in Flordia who sold it last week for less than the asking price.

Sooo ....according to the numbers you just gave us on open vs closed cars Birdman....that calculates to 215k "light". That price, in comparison, is not flat.... it is "squashed".

I am just bummed I did not get there first !!

</div></div>

As an example of the extreme difference between open and closed cars now, a 1933 Super 8 Convertible Victoria just sold yesterday for $412K at RM auctions. This included the bidders 13% premium. Yes it was a very nice car, but it was not even a Twelve. I guess I need to up the insurance coverage on my 32.

I am still finding a signicant difference with pricing between the stanard 8s and deluxe or super 8s as shown by this 32 Standard 8 coupe roadster the sold for "only" $148K.

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Guest imported_Speedster

I still say that those Auctions are Not really a good Indicator of what the cars are Really worth. They only indicate how much 2 guys are willing to pay, to out-do the other guy. It becomes like a Competitive Sport, they have to Win.

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In all seriousness with no malice, simply because 15 or 50 people on a website forum each have an anecdote concerning someone, somewhere modifying stock cars in some way, that does not automatically prove that a huge percentage of cars are actually being modded. Emotional hand wringing is not statistical data. Present real numbers gleaned by impartial, professionals in the field and we'll have something to discuss.

I'm serious when I say I'd like to see a real study done like Hagerty does with auto topics. Until that is done there is nothing other than seat-of-the-pants feelings that this is probably happening.

Illogical people who rave that one out of 1,000 remaining XYZ cars is too many to modify are simply reactionarily driven by hormones.

And Dave who invited you here? I see you're using the same bankrupt logic that if you've been saying it for 5 years it must be true. Kinda sounds like Hitler and the Big Lie to me.

I say this as I'm well into my 2 dozen "Best Original" trophies. My car is probably more original than many of you alls.

If we want to believe that legions of people are purchasing high-priced original cars in order to build $100,000 rods than we must believe that people are hemoraging money. The stupid TV "builds" are not indicicative of the real world and we all know it yet there is this underlying belief that somehow average "hotrod guys" are doing this on a business-as-usual basis.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Any major budget builds are few and far between. There exist a finite number of shops capable of turning out top notch custom work and they are crammed full of projects so how many as really taking place in a years? The average hot rod guy has a 74 Nova and wants to make it go faster. When was the last time you saw a truly radical custom car with chopped body and chassis? They are rare. They are not the norm.

Our 74 Nova guy gets headers, an intake manifold, carb and ignition. He buys bolt on stuff for his suspension to get HP to the ground. If he's real healthy in the $$ department he puts some nice paint on it. He's not chopping up rare cars. This is the majority of evil hot rodders.

Even when Coddington was alive how many did he do like 6 max in a year? See we have no actual figures other than guesstimates by people like us who are not experts in creating and managing statistical information surveys.

No one can say how many V-8s into rare car projects happen in a year. Besides that, define a rare car. There is no agreement on that either. So does your Packard count as rare and the V-8 into the 48 Plymouth not count by virtue of manufactured units alone?

What percentage of rare cars relative to the entire number of existing vehicles is there? If they are being transformed at what rate per year is this happening? What percentage of the original rare cars does this represent?

When we have a production run of 250,000 cars we can't consider them as a whole rare in any way yet some of you doggedly rant that EVERY one of them should be restored to stock condition. Is that reasonable?

Christ, even with registries, clubs and whiz bang national auto organizations NOBODY can tell me how many Packards are still around. That was the 1st thing I was curious of when I got my car yet no one has an answer!

I will agree with all of you that X number of cars are being converted to V-8s each year. But what number does X represent? In ratio to the whole what is it? What is the whole number we started with? What year should we begin with? What percentage are being transmuted? Nobody knows.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not insulting anyone's point of view or ideals. For the most part I agree. But everyone conjering up their own unsubstantiated number is not fact-based logic. Emotional ramblings are not statistics. 50 or 500 can seem like a lot depending on the total number it is calculated in ratio against.

There can be no finite figure for an answer because we don't have all the statistics we need to solve the math. We end up in a completely unsubstantiated position because we don't have the data.

No one can say 50 or 10% out of 500 remaining Dilbertmobiles were made into rods last year because NO ONE knows how many remain! We are attempting to substitute emotion for mathimatical quotient! You know that's wrong.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I still say that those Auctions are Not really a good Indicator of what the cars are Really worth. They only indicate how much 2 guys are willing to pay, to out-do the other guy. It becomes like a Competitive Sport, they have to Win. </div></div>

I agree with you however but if you study the prices, you see a definite upward trend. 4-5 years ago a very nice 32 Coupe roadster Deluxe 8 sold at an auction for about $175K. That price was considered outrageous and the result of multiple people wanting the car. Now we have one selling for $412K. Was it the result of a couple people bidding. Well of course but auctions pricing will tends to set pricing for the rest of the market. Did the 32 Twin six sale at over $600K in Jan set the market price for the super 8? On one other thought is that there are so few of these 32-34 open cars when is a sale not an isolated event?

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you see a definite upward trend. </div></div>

Yes, Most Definitely, sometimes Unbelievably Upward. smirk.gif And CNN keeps Saying the Economy is going Unbelievably Downward ??? 'Go Fish' ???

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, Most Definitely, sometimes Unbelievably Upward. smirk.gif And CNN keeps Saying the Economy is going Unbelievably Downward ??? 'Go Fish' ??? </div></div>

That's actually a very typical response during bad economic times. When the economy tanked in the late 1980s the same thing happened, not just with cars but with all manner of valuable objects.

The worse the economy gets, the bigger this balloon is going to get.

At the same time the distribution of wealth in America has regressed to where it was during the Teddy Roosevelt administration. That's making for a whole lot of <span style="font-style: italic">nouveau-riche</span> relative to what there used to be (although obviously not a lot in relation to the population at large). Apparently a good deal of them don't know the value of an historical artifact, just that of a good time. frown.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm sure many of them drive better than any stock Packard ever could. </div></div>

And I'm sure a new Lexus or Benz drives better than any bastardized rodded Packard!

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Guest imported_Speedster

Exactly, an Antique automobile is Not supposed to drive like a modern car. It's supposed to drive and handle like it did when it was Built.

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No offense Superods, but I think that saying that you are "restoring" Packards on your home page is a bit of an inaccuracy. Maybe this is a linguistic nit-pick, but you could go a long way towards showing people that you are not a hack by avoiding the mass unintentional deception that a modified car is a "restored" car. Restored = brought back to factory original condition. Modified/updated/rodded/refitted = what you do.

The rodders and purists will never see eye to eye, but at least we can be conscious of the small issues that contribute to the larger problem. This is one of them. The general public is ignorant for the most part. It would be nice if Joe on the corner didn't think that a '32 Ford highboy was a "restored Classic". At least you're not calling them "Rat Rods" so I'll give you some credit there. laugh.gif

Also, your page seems very incomplete. How many cars have you done? You make it sound like you're doing series production on these and have perfected a process, but it looks like you've merely acquired one engine, one rear end (although those photos look a lot like they're from Cleveland Pick-A-Part's website/ebay store), and grabbed the photo of the front cradle and a bunch of the text from Fatman Fabrications' online catalog (plagiarism sucks, by the way).

The cars you show on your site are merely old factory photos as well as another shot of the front of that silver Packard victoria I posted earlier (are you suggesting that you built that car?). Are you waiting for your first customer? Did these parts actually go into a customer car? If so, can we see it? Is this a start-up company? Again, extrapolating on these details could change your perceived role here. You seem to be aggressively seeking out Packards to modify en masse, which troubles people. But if reality is that you've done (or are doing) one (or none), then perhaps the vitriol is not warranted. Hard to say.

There's a whole page dedicated to your refitting process, but it's blank. I'm curious to see what stays and what goes when you refit a Packard. That, too, might give some of the participants here an idea of how far you're going. If there's enough Packard stuff on there that a similiarly rich and crazy guy wanted to buy one of your cars and make it original again, we might feel better. If it's completely cut up and beyond salvage, that will similarly leave a bad taste in everyone's mouths.

I can respect quality work of any variety, so I'd like to see what you can do. If you're highly skilled, and do exceptional work, then there may be some merit to these refits you're doing. Quality work always has value. Or maybe you're fishing for your first client, and I hope your business venture succeeds. Our economy needs it desperately.

But if you're a backyard hack, all you're doing is destroying history to make a quick buck. There's no excuse for that.

Or maybe you're yanking our chains and having a good laugh. If so, <span style="font-style: italic">very </span>well played, sir! As someone who loves a good hoax, I salute your ingenuity. wink.gif

PS: I'm local. Can I come see your shop?

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Guest superods

Matt

You are welcome to come to my shop any time. In the mean time, I am happy to clarify some things you and others here may be concerned with.

The term refitting is one I coined. It simply means redoing. In this case, the updating and replacement of the suspension and drive train. The business decision I made with the Packards was to bring all components above the frame to factory original. I took it as far as keeping the clutch pedal...even though it is an automatic trans. The shifter configuration and knob is the same. I am having Tesla machine in Cleveland duplicate the base of the shifter to make it appear as the original. They are also making me the stock components {finalic material for horn button and base on steering wheel]. Flaming River, cleveland, is builds "stock" steering columns to accept the stock steering wheel. I can go on and on. But I am just going to give a few more facts that will give you a much better understanding.

The owner of Fatman Fabricators gave me permission to use the terminology from his site for his classic Ifs on my site. Brent built this unit for his personal 31 buick, and has been marketing it for the last 4 years. In fact, the white 34 packard 5 passenger depicted earlier in this thread, owned by Richard Jack, has 48k miles on that ifs over the last 3 years. He also used it on a 32 limo he just completed and his builder is putting it on a 33 Packard victoria replica body built by a company called "second chances".

Dwight Bond, now retired, stopped selling his turn key 33 and 34 convertible coupes...limo's and Victoria's 10 years ago. I have purchased his last 34 convertible coupe body and am negotiating with him to pull a few more for me, along with a few victoria's. You would more than likely know his other company, which he sold to his son upon retirement, Gibbons fiberglass. His replica's were ahead of their time. The bodies are exquisite! His molds are for sale if you know of anyone. He also has a 34 Packard boat tail he commissioned to have done a few years ago for sale. It is steel over wood.

I am buying from cleveland pic a part. Have done so for the last 10 years. Rick, the owner, worked with us on a few independent rear suspensions. This one bolted right up with only 4 inches x 2 inches of the frame kick up cut out to do so. We kept the cut outs. That is the only alteration of the chassis. In fact the front cross member is still in place over top of the IFS. Gives us added strenght and cradles the stock radiator.

We only use 5.3 and 6.0 vorteks with electronic 4l60 and 4l80E transmissions... 300 to 320 horse with good low end torque. Rick sells the hot rod engines. We do not need that for this application.

The full cradle independent suspension comes out of a 300 chrysler...E series Mercedes really. I buy the 290 gears v-6 version for 33 1/2 inch wide white michilin I put on a 17 x 5 packard replica wire wheels by Zenith Wire wheels in California. If i could find a radial tire that is 20 inches Greg, the owner of Zenith, would make me 20's. Hope someone begins making 20 inch radials.

Now matt...If you click on any one of the factory photo's under the "Automobile" area of my website, you will be taken directly to a page which depicts that car in the photo. It is the exact car I own, and will be refitting in the manner we are somewhat discussing here.. Two are presently in the que. One is here, a 32 rumble seat coupe that will go to the paint shop April 15, and one in Columbus being refitted with all new mechanicals, a 32 club sedan. I contracted 10 mechanical refittings with Alec Carpenter in Columbus Ohio....owner of Ark Hot Rods. A very talented chassis man. I only use the best matt. Money is no object to me. Are you now starting to feel warm and fuzzy about me. ?

If you come by matt you can see the 65 Dodge Power wagon I bought last week. It too will get an updated drive train and mechanicals. Want to use it to pull my trailer with the cars I take to the shows...adds crediabilty you know.

I am also working on a 34 lo boy, no fendered, Ford thaqt you may like. It is over Kent Stauffer's who is the most talented builder of turnkey cars I know. I would put him up against anyone when it comes to quality. He has no equal matt...none. It will add to your trip to meet him and see his work.

Now go to my another of my websites matt http://www.serenitymasterpiece.net

There you will see the finest Morgan horses that exist in the world. None better....NONE !! Nothing I do is second class matt.........NOTHING!! We sit on a 100 acres and have facility of 30,000 square feet under roof. If you wait a week I should have a couple more packards arriving that I purchased last year.

As well, I am planning a trip to look at a 1931 Buick next week, in hopes of buying a neat 31 series 86 80-90 doctors coupe near Flint...maybe you would like to come along and teach me a few things about Buicks.

It is still snowy so I will leave the new corvette in the garage matt.

BTW is the 41 sedanette the only classic you own ?

Anything I hate is someone with a mouth who uses when they should keep it shut and find out the facts first.

I built the site...and I do it as i feel like it. I am hands on matt I love to build things...exqusite things...I like unique....things others do not have. I am building these cars...I will enjoy them and keep a few around always to enjoy. If a nice Caddy comes along...that Buick they only made 1800 of so the man says or even a nice older Stutz I am game. I just so happen to like 30 thru 34 Packards.

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Or maybe you're yanking our chains and having a good laugh. </div></div>

Looks like the Only Chain being Yanked is the one on the Hoist, Pulling out those Original Engines. cry.gif LOL

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I built the site...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">and I do it as i feel like it</span>.</span> I am hands on matt I love to build things...exqusite things...I like unique....things others do not have. I am building these cars...I will enjoy them and keep a few around always to enjoy. If a nice Caddy comes along...that Buick they only made 1800 of so the man says or even a nice older Stutz I am game. I just so happen to like 30 thru 34 Packards. </div></div>

If he were so inclined, Bill Gates has the resources to buy Van Gough's self portrait and hire the world's best retoucher to replace that pesky missing ear and maybe paint some cool modern clothes on the poor guy too....... I mean do a really first class job whistle.gif

If classic looks and modern drivability are the goals why not just mate a rolling streetrod chassis to a repop body?

Once the cutting torch is lit there's no going back, and just because you can doesn't mean you should.............

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Guest superods

Not all the cars I own, or will own in the near future, will be refitted speedster. The 1930 733 convertible coupe will be dismantled, documented and researched and restored to 100% original. Also, I bought a nice 1934 Coupe from Bert Barber in Seattle last year that is shipping to me tomorrow. It has been partially restored and all the pieces and parts are there. It will also be restored to original. So say you are sorry speedster for all the raggin on me you have done. I want to buy a 30 to 34 Victoria, an older restoration to update to original too. Thats enough original stuff. So let me know if there are any deals out there Speedster on a Victoria.

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Guest 1956Packard

Twitch?....Twitch.....?

Nevermind, I already drank the ale to dull the pain - (although I'm not sure how it got in my mouth with all the head shaking).

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Guest imported_Speedster

superods,

I don't know If I can say I'm sorry yet, but I am Very Glad to hear that you plan to Restore some of them.

Maybe 'There's Hope for YOU, Yet!' wink.gif LOL

As you can tell I'm still Joking around, So I'm not Bitter, and as long as Not Many of them get Rodded, I won't get Sad amd Bitter. wink.gif

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