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Resto Rod ????


Guest 1956Packard

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you're highly skilled, and do exceptional work, then there may be some merit to these refits you're doing. </div></div>

And I suppose if the basil and thyme I use on the condor are fresh then that Thanksgiving dinner's a little O.K. too? confused.gif

Matt, I don't care how well something like this is done:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We only use 5.3 and 6.0 vorteks with electronic 4l60 and 4l80E transmissions... 300 to 320 horse with good low end torque. Rick sells the hot rod engines. We do not need that for this application.

The full cradle independent suspension comes out of a 300 chrysler...E series Mercedes really. I buy the 290 gears v-6 version for 33 1/2 inch wide white michilin I put on a 17 x 5 packard replica wire wheels by Zenith Wire wheels in California. </div></div>

...it's still being done to something that deserves <span style="text-decoration: underline">a lot</span> more respect than this. I'm sure this is being done out of admiration for the Packard form. That just makes it worse. Some people wear John Lennon t-shirts to show their admiration for his art. Others hang out on the Dakota's steps with a .38 in a vain attempt to wear his soon to be cold skin.

On an irreplaceable/already desperately rare object like a Full Classic Packard, this is legitimized carnage. It was a shame when the last restorable Willys 33s and Americars were sacrificed to the hot rod culture. It will be sad when the same thing happens to the last restorable '57 Roadmaster convertible or Nomad. This is beyond sad. This is losing the last of these cars period, in virtually each and every case, because they are unique creations different than the mass produced products that hot rodding was invented for. (<span style="font-style: italic">In that sense they already were hot rods, uniquely built cars of high performance for their era. That that even has to said, and isn't already understood by all present, is sad.</span>) frown.gif

When truly unique cars, with production numbers of less than 1000 <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> with the individual variablility inherent in 1930s luxury cars <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> with the terribly small survival rates due to the WW2 scrap drives, are forever lost to future generations for a toy that (at best) will hold interest for a decade or so even for it's inevitable series of owners (<span style="font-style: italic">eventually to be chopped up even further to some other purpose which may or may not even be automotive in nature</span>), then we've lost our way as curators of history.

I like condors, but I'm not going to shoot one and hang it around my neck until it stinks. sick.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I'm not Bitter, and as long as Not Many of them get Rodded, I won't get Sad amd Bitter. </div></div>

From my old "Lost Souls" thread I know of about 50, not counting 120s or other mass-produced Packards. Is that enough?

It was for me.

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Guest imported_Speedster

Yes, there are Many post-war cars of All makes that have been Chopped-up. I was mainly refering to pre-war Packards, since that is what 'superods' and others like him, have been destroying.

I suppose it's because I've always wanted a '33 or '34 Packard to Restore and have never been able to find one I could affort, so it's like a 'Stab in the Heart' when I hear of people with a lot of money, 'Doing Harm' to them like that.

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superods, I did spend some time browsing your site after you clarified that additional photos were available. It seems that you are working on several cars, and desireable ones at that. I'm glad to see that the more complete ones are being restored, not cut up, and your workmanship looks very nice.

But it still saddens me to see that you seem to have a knack for finding clean, restorable, desireable Packards, only to "refit" them when you acquire them. It's clear that you have considerable financial resources dedicated to this pursuit. Are you doing the cars and then selling them, or do you have customers paying for the process, or do they send cars to you (or all three)? I didn't mean to come off as a jackass (which I may have, so I'm sorry about that), but I'm fairly passionate about this. I've always got my eye out for a restorable '33 or '34 Packard of any sort, and rarely find such beasts. It bums me out big time that you're apparently finding a lot of such cars and taking them out of circulation permanently.

Since I was a kid, I've dreamed of a Senior Packard in my garage (thanks to a big, blue '34 V12 club sedan that toured with us). The only way I'm going to get one is to buy one that needs a restoration and restore it myself. There aren't many of those left, and by the time I'm finished with the Buick, they may have been hunted to extinction or there won't be any gas left to power them. So I have a vested interest in not seeing these cars permanently modified.

Sure, my motives are somewhat selfish--I <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> want a 1933 or '34 Packard--but that doesn't make any of the comments about their loss less legitimate. History is one thing, and I respect it, but if you're cutting up cars and then waiting for a customer to buy it, man, that really saddens me. How about if I buy a car from you before you start work? Would you sell one as-is? I'd be interested, anyway. Like those poor abandoned dogs my wife sees on TV, we can't save them all by ourselves. But if I can save one, I'll do it.

I've long advocated doing what you want with your car. My Rodding vs. Restoring editorial actually argues in favor of rodding, although I point out that <span style="font-style: italic">important</span> cars should be preserved--if you're trying to be creative by building a rod, you can do it with a Ford. To me, it seems lazy to cut up a Packard then drop in the ubiquitous Chevy drivetrain just to have something different. You want to impress me? Build a rod like "Scrape" with a vintage V12 with vintage speed equipment. <span style="font-style: italic">That</span> took some creativity and craftsmanship and I respect it tremendously. The fact that it has led to a the virtual extinction of original Zephyr coupes is a very tragic side-effect, and that should make even you a little unhappy.

Now I won't tell you you can't do what you're doing or hope that you fail or something like that. I (and many of the others) just feel like these cars have earned the right to be what they are instead of becoming the flavor of the month in the rodding world. As Dave points out, rodded cars become dated--it's inevitable. How many teal/peach/yellow '38 Chevy 2-door sedans with American Racing 3-spoke "Blade" wheels, tan tweed interiors and multi-colored scallops are sitting around from 1989? Rodding is absolutely about fashion, and inevitably, most rods grow out-of-date.

In contrast, a restored Packard is timeless. It will always have value in original condition. Some rods are valuable when they're recently finished and perfect, but they depreciate just like any other used car when they are, well, <span style="font-style: italic">used.</span> Over time, the original Packard will always be more valuable in any condition.

This aspect is another thorn in many collectors' sides: it sure seems like a short-cut, quick-buck thing. Rodding is often easier and cheaper than restoring (yeah, it really is--for what I spent on rebuilding my Buick straight-8, you probably got at least the engine, transmission and rear end, and maybe even that trick front suspension for your Packard). The rest of my restoration will require the same things you do in your builds: bodywork, paint, upholstery, sub-system rebuilds, etc. I can't order new wheels or brake drums or steering racks or gauges out of a catalog. But I could easily take a crate engine, parts from a wrecked modern car, some pre-engineered suspension pieces welded to the original frame, someone else's pre-designed engine mounts, a bunch of stuff from Summit Racing and be on the road in a fraction of the time for a fraction of the cost. Would my rare Century rod be any more valuable than a virtually identical Special rod that is 20x more common? Doubt it.

You should have seen the flood of E-mails that I got when I wrote this. Wow, some folks were <span style="font-style: italic">pissed.</span>

I understand that you're working hard to preserve the original Packard features (clutch pedals in an automatic, for instance), but what's the point? You're not "preserving" or "restoring" the car, why retain redundant or obsolete features? You act like it's a virtue, but it's really a waste of time and money given everything else you're doing to the car, no? As I said in one of the other threads about this, it seems that you respect how a Packard looks, you just don't respect how it works. I guess I just don't understand the idea of refitting modern running gear but keeping it stock-appearing. Driving a vintage car is most of the fun of ownership. I don't think my Buick would be nearly as much fun if it drove like my Dodge Ram 3/4-ton pickup. I've already <span style="font-style: italic">got</span> one of those. What I don't have is a '41 Buick Century with 5-inch wide tires, 3-on-the-tree and a carbureted straight-8. I love driving our 1930 Model A roadster, I love the sounds it makes, I love the way it bounces over bumps, I love the double-clutching, I love the feeling of the ancient machine as it goes about its business at 40 MPH instead of 80. Would A/C make it more fun? Do I need a blaring 1000-watt stereo to make it exciting? Am I sick of working that clutch? Hell no. If I want all that, I own a pretty cool modern convertible I can drive any time I want. What I'm asking is this: what are you getting out of a stock-appearing Packard with an EFI Chevy and an automatic other than the ability to drive a "modern" car instead of a vintage one? Sure, a lot of people do it, but a lot of people smoke cigarettes, too. Like I said, it's fashion.

Why not build your rods with fake bodies and modern chassis? At this point, what does the original steel give you that a repro can't? Pull some fiberglass molds off that convertible you have (selling the original when you're done would more than pay for it) and build a bunch of those. I think you could make A LOT more money than doing a one-off, and still exercise your same standards of workmanship and quality over the finished product. It would probably even be a better car, given the ability to upgrade the chassis rigidity and to include other modern touches that just aren't present in the old steel and take too much work to reengineer. And I'm guessing that the guys buying these cars wouldn't care at all. They want the look, not the drive. An accurate repro would suit them just fine. Hell, it might even cost less to build!

On the other hand, it's really hard to develop new stuff. It takes a lot of intense thought, trial-and-error and talent to do such a thing. There aren't many folks with that much talent and ability. It's <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> a lot easier to buy someone else's pre-engineered parts out of a catalog and a crate motor and bolt them together. But innovation, engineering and hard work is what the true craftsmen at the top of the field do, and <span style="font-style: italic">those</span> guys have certainly earned everyone's respect. Maybe you're that talented, too, or you could be if you applied yourself.

All this still begs the question: Just how is cutting up an original better?

I know I'm all over the place here, but I'm just laying it all down from my point of view. I don't like desireable, rare cars being taken out of circulation for a fashion statement. I do like fine craftsmanship, whatever its form. I won't tell you what to do with your cars. Yet I want there to be a happy medium between the two factions. I don't know what that is, though.

Anyway, think about the repro thing. Everyone wins.

Regards.

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So the bad hot rod man is not so bad now it seems, huh?

Superod- this forum used to be perused by people involved in hands-on Packard engineering which was dedicated to keeping cars on the road involving non-era and non-Packard parts substituted as needed for function. You know things like dual master cylinders and even GM HEI distributors or tranny swaps for disabled Packard automatics.

Of course none of these fixes were visibally evident yet contributed to keeping cars on the road, which is what I thought all this was about.

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Guest 1956Packard

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the bad hot rod man is not so bad now it seems, huh?

</div></div>

NO! I wouldn't say that.

I'm just being polite. And I'll tell you it's getting harder and harder and harder......

I think you are also seeing;

'... if you can't say anything good don't say anything at all...'

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Guest superods

Eveyone needs to take a deep breath. I will keep any further comments within the frame work and the spirit this forum is intended. My apology to all those offended by what it is I am doing. I know full well there is a time and a place for everything. I should have considered that more before I spouted off.

Just want to make one thing perfectly clear though....I am not hot rodding....I am not resto rodding. My goal is for an enthusiast with knowledge, not to realize something is a miss till the key is turned.

And by the way. Anyone can strip any of my refits of all the new mechanicals and put them back to bone stock original. The only hacking done is a 2 inch by 3 inch cut out on the bottom side of the frame to attach the front arms of the cradle. I have the pieces and they go with the car. I say no more...you want to know anything else from this moment forward mail me if not then everyone enjoy your projects and this forum.

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just want to make one thing perfectly clear though....I am not hot rodding....I am not resto rodding. My goal is for an enthusiast with knowledge, not to realize something is a miss till the key is turned.

</div></div>

I also have problems with Terminology, but I believe that's what everyone calls a Resto-Rod. I've never heard the term Refit-Rod, until now. I know you are trying to convince everyone that you are Not 'rodding' them, but you Are. wink.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

not to realize <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">something is a miss</span></span></span> till the key is turned.

</div></div>

Therein lies the rub...you've ripped the heart out of the car. In that era, Packard was at the leading edge of engineering and quality production. Nothing like opening the hood of a V12 and seeing what "state of the art" was in the 1930's.

Much different than going to the local street rod Show 'n Shine and seeing row after row of (yawn) Chebby small blocks sitting in the engine bays....... sleep.gif

Your cars, your money...knock yourself out..........

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yes, there are Many post-war cars of All makes that have been Chopped-up. I was mainly refering to pre-war Packards, since that is what 'superods' and others like him, have been destroying.

I suppose it's because I've always wanted a '33 or '34 Packard to Restore and have never been able to find one I could affort, so it's like a 'Stab in the Heart' when I hear of people with a lot of money, 'Doing Harm' to them like that. </div></div>

I was referring to Pre-War, Full Classic Packards only when I said I know of about 50 that have been rodded, be they street-rodded/hot-rodded/rat-rodded/resto-rodded/repro-rodded/or any other intelluctually meaningless rationalization prefix attached to the process. If you want to look at post-war or even pre-war 120/110/Clippers that have been rodded the number is surely in the thousands range by now.

All one has to do is to go to Yahoo and do an image search for <span style="font-style: italic">Packard street rod</span> (currently 150 images available), or you can substitute any of the other terms for it. Searching for Marmons/Pierce-Arrow/Lincoln/Cadillac will also find more than enough images.

<span style="font-weight: bold">That search is just a start, however.</span> Most images do not have all the terms attached to show up in searches (<span style="font-style: italic">and amusingly a huge percentage {15%+?} are not even identified correctly, usually not even by their owners</span> smirk.gif ). You can then go to the sites where some images are found, and browse around in them. Browsing through popular street rodding sites will also turn up dozens at a time. When I was building my "Lost Souls" thread I'd usually turn up 6 or 8 at a time when I could spare the time. It rarely took more than half an hour.

33packmcmullen.jpg

(BTW, this car is a rarity. It actually <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> a fiberglass reproduction of a car (though obviously a large number of genuine pieces were used), done in the manner Matt described. It won Outstanding Street Rod at the 2001 Detroit Autorama. So it can be done! smile.gif )

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a hundred years will it matter?

</div></div>

I hope it Matters to someone and they will keep my cars and other Packard Automobiles original. (Not a Car, it's an Automobile) grin.gif

I think Some Original Packards will Still be Original and Not All Gone.

For Packards, 200 years or so, is Just the 'Break-In Period'. grin.gif

We are talking about the Holy Packards here, Not Studebakers! laugh.gif LOL (Sorry aboout That!) grin.gif

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Guest BillP

Geez, I go out of town for a few days and the joint goes crazy! All interesting and a lot of well-presented opinions.

I suppose one thing to consider when looking at and lamenting over the fate of a hot-rodded Packard (or any other marque, including the high-volume cars) is the condition at the start.

There may be many anecdotes or examples that can be related of perfectly serviceable cars being stripped and modified. There are certainly as many stories of true basket cases, and half-empty baskets at that, that would not be on the road were it not for transplanted (modern) parts. By the same token, the truly great and heroic car stories involve taking those hulks and bringing them back to stock condition with parts from a hundred sources, including the Bridgeport in the guy's backyard shop.

As for me, I'm guilty of hacking up an MGA and 'refitting' a small-block Ford under the hoo...eh...bonnet. But that was when I was a hot-rod kid and the MG, a good, fun and reliable but awful slow car cost me 700 1968 bucks.

I'm more dreamy-eyed now, and I see my original, unrestored 34 Packard as a direct link to the past. It looks the part, smells it, and runs smoothly and quietly but slowly compared to anything now. But for me, that's the beauty. It was state of the art for 1934, and in a sense, it's a time machine. A link to a slower time.

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Guest superods

Dave,

That Limo was one of three bodies Dwight Bond built years ago. The other two were 33 and 34 Packard convertible coupe and a Packard victoria. He is presently trying to sell the molds. He retired 10 years ago.

I was fortunate to purchase his last 34 convertible coupe body. Will build that one out and am negotiating on a couple of more coupes along with a couple 34 Victoria's while he still has the molds and a person in town who will glass them up for Dwight.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm more dreamy-eyed now, and I see my original, unrestored 34 Packard as a direct link to the past. It looks the part, smells it, and runs smoothly and quietly but slowly compared to anything now. But for me, that's the beauty. It was state of the art for 1934, and in a sense, it's a time machine. A link to a slower time.

</div></div>

That's a great way to put it and I'm sure it's the way a lot of us feel.

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That Limo was one of three bodies Dwight Bond built years ago. The other two were 33 and 34 Packard convertible coupe and a Packard victoria. He is presently trying to sell the molds. He retired 10 years ago.</div></div>

I had planed to purchase one of those glass Conv.-coupe bodies from Bond, but when I had almost saved up enough Pennys, he Stopped making them. I've been told there were a lot of people very disappointed when he desided to retire, since they were a Great project car.

That's when I desided to find a Real Packard that needed restoring, and 4 other Packards Later, I'm still at it.

Bonds replicas are really the reason I started an Interest in Packards, since here in Texas there are Not many pre/war Packards around and I had not even seen many, so I have something to Thank him for. smile.gif

The first one I did find here in Texas, but if it had not been for the Internet, I probably would have never got the other four. Since they were all trucked in from Yankee land. laugh.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, it's a car - not a holy thing.

In a hundred years will it matter?

I'll bet not. </div></div>

How can anyone possibly bet that an historical artifact currently worth more than the average American home would not be worth enough in a hundred years to "matter"? Even if you totally discount the emotional and historical worth of such objects, and focus only on the financial worth of them, this is mortifyingly illogical and ludicrous in the worst sense.

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Guest ZondaC12

I wonder what would have happened to my Buick if for whatever reason I had not been the one to drag it out of the garage after my dad's passing. Say I took no interest! Mom just put a listing in the want-ads. Sold to anyone, she wouldn't have cared what they were going to do with it, she would have needed it out of the way so she could be relieved of the rent for that garage.

I've had several of the guys in the local casual old-car club (of which Mr Jack, bulding that 34 Packard Convertible and already having that club coupe, is a member of) approach me at cruise nights and shows saying "boy ill tell ya paul i'd reeeeaaallly love to hot rod that car there I know ya wanna keep it as is and that's great but she'd sure look mean"

So I read that statment and thought...yeah. Sad but true!

And re: "Will it matter in a hundred years?"

Look where the auto industry is today! I wonder where it will be in 100 years. Maybe we still wont be flying like the Jetsons but cars will obviously be oh-so vastly different. Surely they'll be powered by an entirely different fuel source, and their inner workings will have very little in common with current iron, save for basic things like, well WHEELS and shafts and stuff laugh.gif I mean isn't that why we like these things in the first place? As its been said, a "time machine"?

Imagine the owner of a 1911 Oldsmobile, brand new. wink.gif What if he/she thought "oh this wouldnt matter in 2011, by then who knows what people will drive they wont care about something old". And then that all-original one brought whatever the hell it brought. Just my .42 (ask Mr Earl why I said that!!! laugh.gif )

With the ever-changing nature of cars we DEFINITELY gotta keep around the stuff from the halcyon days, and from every time period good or bad in the industry (cough70scough) to know where we've been! Just think, some people WILL be born and possibly never even KNOW what a stick-shift is, let alone how to use one! Some might not even know now!!!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, it's a car - not a holy thing.

In a hundred years will it matter?

I'll bet not. </div></div>

My house is 158 years old. It matters to me that it's still standing. I love the place, drafty windows, wobbly, cupped floors, dated electrical and plumbing and all. In the 1920s and '30s, it was the clubhouse for a polo club where Will Rogers used to play and stay overnight. In the 1940s, it was a 9-hole golf course (there's still a green and a bunker in the back yard). I'm sure glad some developer didn't "refit" it into condos to make it easier and cheaper to live in.

So yeah, history matters. If an object has intrinsic value today, it will <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> have intrinsic value. Things of quality have no fear of time.

Unless they're Packards, and then they have to fear the rodder's Sawzall.

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Guest superods

Matt...you should thank me for coining the word "refitters". I like how you used it above. I am sure, after one mulls it over, the term makes far more sense than others out there.

BTW......I have not heard from you as yet. Would love to have you visit. I am serious. I guarantee you will enjoy your time here. Will give you a tour of the farm and all the facilities, along with our future construction plans for the new shop and garages. I will also be happy to introduce you to the craftsmen I work with. You may just have a need some day.

You are welcome any time. My number is on the web site or you may email me at packardrefitters@yahoo.com. Enjoy your day.

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Superods- what people are alluding to is that if you make ANY modification to ANY car they won't be judge-able in a national auto organization sponsored event. Doesn't matter if your little mods actually helps the car run better or not the zombies that obey only the confined parameters of the "law of the club" will never see I that way.

Yeah 15 minutes ago on another forum I was telling a Plymouth owner why I was in favor if leaving his original 6v alone if there were no major problems. No huge benefit to go 12v. That said I'd have no problem of switching a distributor, let's say, that wasn't Packard if it held benefits for running. See cause running is all I care about even though with my medical problems I can only get about 500 miles a years.

I don't care to ever enter my cars in national club events. I enjoy the easy going atmosphere of local organizations. The very problem I wish to avoid is people wound too tight telling you what you ought to do with your car to make it closer to a 100 pointer. Bah! That's what you get with big time club people.

All this lofty soul searching imagining that owners of cars years ago had some spirit of history or place in the world is rubbish. There were hot rodders in the 1930s! To be serious and picture in your mind that somebody in the future is going to tearfully thank us for preserving old cars is a bit grandiose in the scale of 1000 year reichs. It becomes tantamount to the Sierra Club's warped thinking that even though no one will ever see the spotted woodcock it's nice to know they're out there living safe. Of course the only people who will ever see it is the elitist Sierra Club higher ups. And of course the people that will never see them are the very ones subsidizing the cost of the the boondoggle. Pretending to imagine how history will see preserving cars in 200 years is nothing but vain and egotistical.

Until the latter part of the 20th century societies didn't spiritualize antique"things." So who is to say that by the end of the 21st anyone will still be on the "save old stuff" bandwagon. Sooner or later the remainder of vintage cars, and everything else of historical sugnificance from bygone eras, will end up in whatever museums exist in the future and there certainly won't be room for all of those that exist today. Waxing philosophically about some mind's eye future that probably will never exist is nearly delusional. How weird is it to worry about anything hundreds or 1000 years from now? No one any of us know will even exist in 100 years!

Lastly, what bother me most is the fact that people will defend indefendable positions relation to figures that no one has! Does anyone have any idea of how many "vintage" cars there are in the US? Of course not. Yeah that includes 49 Hudsons, 32 Mormons and 76 Oldsmobiles. Think it could be 20-30 million? Yeah if vintage is everything over 25 years old. Hey it may not be a 32 Packard but the guy down the street that has a 65 Wildcat keeps it for some reason. It's part of the "car hobby." I count 50 cars like this in 4 square blocks of my neighborhood. And while the Buick could never be as rare as pre-war true classics, ANYTHING given enough passage of time will become rare. Harping on this continually will not affect the process.

What I had and have a problem with is folks being taken in by unsubstantiated number. "A large amount, " "a lot,"- vague definitions are subjective. What one person thinks is a lot is not by another person's calculations. Even when someone says 50 cars or 200 cars or whatever number have been rodded it is simply a misnomer because if he doesn't supply the ratio number, 50 or 200 are meaningless. And of course we rush to judge that somehow all the original cars will be modified in the next few years without stopping to calculate.

Think there's 20-30 million hobby/special interest/vintage/collector/classic cars around? Too many? 10 million. OK let's say that dastardly old Superods converts 1000 a year. My God! Stop him! In relative terms it will take him 1000 years to "ruin" 1 million cars. He should live so long.Fedora.gif This why I say is is completely presunptious to think you can imagine what antique cars' place in history will be in 1000 years. No one knows just as no one knows how many hobby/special interest/vintage/collector/classic exist in the 1st place so how can we be alarmed at an unknown figure in ratio to another unknown figure?

And as we see right before our eyes are cars becoming offically vintage as they reach 25 years of age. While there won't be any more 32 Marmon V-16s there has been an continual parade of cars ever since and they all aren't worthy of collecting.....now. But since we are looking into the future we have to know that every peice of junk cracker box crapwagon will someday be more rare. So. What is anybody/everybody going to do about that? Let's start hoarding those 1990s Taurus now!

So let's each enjoy our old cars as each sees fit without making those of different thinking the enemy. It won't do any good. We're not knights on white horses weighed down with some obscure future responsibility to do anything but enjoy or cars. Anyone that thinks we are should pass that dope around. Each person should do that in their own way without attempting to tell others what they should do. No the survival of certain cars for 100s of years is not your particular responsibility unless you are a museum curator. No one here is going to do anything anyway beyond talk about it. You know it. I know it. Unless you form a cooperative that funds the purchase of all the hobby/special interest/vintage/collector/classic cars you have nothing to say about the fate of other people's cars. Pizz and moan all you want , it won't change a thing.

Let's play with our cars instead of attempting to calculate things without actual numbers.

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I'd probably like to come down and may very well take you up on that. I'm not nearly as antagonistic in real life.

You didn't mention the replicas in your reply, and I'm still curious about whether that path is viable. You said you got one of the Dwight Bond bodies and that the molds are for sale. Are they any good? I had a good carbon guy when I was doing race cars, maybe he could do fiberglass (or recommend someone good). What else is involved in building a complete car from one of these and what additional parts are needed? Would you need an original Packard frame, or is it something that could be fabricated instead? What about things like the grille, trim, windshield stanchions, top assembly, etc? Are those things that can be made or are there repros or is it a search to find originals? If the molds are good, laying up a body would cost under $7K, maybe $9K with a gelcoat finish. Chump change compared to buying a whole car and then ditching all the superfluous hardware, no? It's also a lot easier to work with than rusty old steel that needs to be patched and repaired.

Seriously, I think this could turn into a lucrative business opportunity since you're already doing turn-key rods. If these heavy cruisers are getting more popular, glass bodies could put them within reach of a lot more people, just like the 'glass Fords that are all over the place now. I don't even think there's any stigma attached to fiberglass any more--most folks can't tell by looking at it anyway. Purists like most of us here won't be interested, of course, but it would be one way to increase the viable population for everyone and we won't be fighting over the same cars.

I'm not trying to suggest that you change what you're doing, just thinking out loud. You seem to have the resources to tackle such a project and enough knowledge to do them up right. Like I said, I think it could be a win-win-win for everyone: guys get their big Packard rods done the way they want without buying an expensive original, you make money doing it, and original Packards stay original. Everybody wins. Since the goal is to make a modern car that merely looks like an original Packard, that's one way to do it. I bet there are a lot more guys who want a modified Packard convertible or victoria than can afford one.

And I'm still interested in whether you would be willing to sell one of your Packards before you start? You're good at finding them, and seem to have amassed a considerable inventory. Just wondering, in case the right car at the right time presents itself. I'm always looking, although right now, my resources are stretched pretty thin. But for the right car, I'm sure Julia could be convinced (oy, what that would cost me!)...

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the replicas.

PS: Refitting is a common term in the naval world. Any time a boat is overhauled/restored/re-equipped in any significant way, it's often called a refit. You've chosen the right word for your process, although I don't think that's going to help anyone here feel better about it. Sorry. wink.gif

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Twitch, I see your point about modifying cars to make them run better if you're someone who just wants to drive it, but retrofitting a distributor or even an automatic transmission is a <span style="font-style: italic">looooong</span> way from replacing everything but the body and frame. While you cover the least significant 2/3 of the discussion (preserving history & the BS "statistics" involved with saving certain old cars), you're missing the <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> important part: <span style="font-style: italic">Why</span> we enjoy driving the cars.

First, your statistical analysis is highly flawed. It assumes that all antique cars are equally desireable and that they are all interchangeable in terms of personal preference and value. Even you must realize that converting 1000 pre-war Dodges is not the same as converting 1000 pre-war Packards. Your statistical analysis is less applicable than someone saying, "I want to see Packards preserved because there aren't many of them left." (Which is true.)

You also incorrectly assume that we love Packards merely because we hope that someone else will enjoy them in the future. You're suggesting that we don't actually love them for ourselves, but for those poor wretched souls who may not see them in the year 2208. Hell, no. I'm totally, completely 100% selfish in my desires. I want a Packard because <span style="font-style: italic">I</span> want to enjoy it. I want to feel it humming under my bottom, I want to listen to the burble of the exhaust, I want to run the transmission through the gears. That's livin'! Once I'm dead, I won't care what becomes of it. I don't owe the world anything. History can go screw.

And are you suggesting with your Sierra Club reference that if I don't derive any personal benefit from a particular item, I shouldn't care about it? Me, me, me, that's all that matters, right? As long as it's not <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> Packard being modified, it should not make me sad? C'mon. Maybe that <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> my Packard, but I didn't get to it in time. frown.gif

I'm not having this discussion because I'm a club "zombie" or mindless slave to judging standards. I'm not restoring my Buick for future generations to enjoy or because it has a place in history. I'm not doing it to save a declining population of antique cars in general circulation.

No, I'm doing it the way I'm doing it because it feels right when I do it. I'm doing it to win shows because I want the personal challenge--am I as good as a professional shop? I'm doing a frame-off anyway, why not try to do it to the best of my abilities? I'm quite certain you do things that the experts tell you not to or when there's a better way. Why do you do that? Because you are the one who determines when it is done right. Your way is best for you. You don't do national events, but other people really like them. You say tomato, I say tomahto. Your way isn't better, and your tone suggests that you think we're being stupid. We're not. You're just missing the point.

Yeah, my Buick has modifications. The engine has a lot of invisible upgrades that will make it run better. It has the benefit of 65 years of technology in the brake, lubrication, induction, cooling and coatings departments. It won't be 100% as it was from the factory with lacquer paint, asbestos brakes and lousy oil in the crankcase. But every part on it is as the engineers <span style="font-style: italic">intended</span>, and that's the gist of this conversation. Understand that this is why most of us won't object to even something as significant as a modern automatic transmission taking the place of an obsolete one--the car still pretty much operates the way it did originally. Putting an automatic on our Model A, well, that's just crazy talk!

These cars were built a certain way, and to me, the enjoyment comes from experiencing their operation as it was originally. As hobbyists, we don't want the headaches that sometimes came with the cars when they were daily drivers (frequent valve jobs, hard starting, etc.), so we "modify" to get around those things. However, the enjoyment factor is driving a car that closely replicates what it did when it was new. That's why I do it. That's why an upgraded distributor doesn't upset me and why a complete gutting of the mechanicals does.

I'm not telling superods what to do or that he shouldn't be allowed to modify his cars. I am saying that I don't get the point of a modern car that merely looks like a Packard when the real thing offers the sort of driving enjoyment that you espouse in your first paragraph. Like I said, if I want to drive a vehicle that feels like a 4500 pound truck, I already own one. I don't have anything that drives like a '41 Buick Century except a '41 Buick Century.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The entire point here is this:</span> Enjoying an old car involves a lot more than restoring it to perfection. <span style="font-weight: bold">It is all about enjoying it for what it is, faults and virtues alike, because modern cars don't offer the same experience.</span> Sticking in a modern drivetrain and all the conveniences of a Cadillac removes the #1 ingredient that makes an original car so special, be it a Packard or a Model A Ford. I have more fun driving old cars than I do by looking at the things. But looks are all superod's Packards are about (no offense, superods).

PS: Hoarding Tauruses? C'mon. Rare /= special or valuable. Special cars are special, whether there are 10 or 10,000,000. Look at the values of, say, '57 Chevies. There are sure a lot of them, but they are commanding big money because they're special. Why do you own a Packard and not an '84 Oldsmobile diesel? What's the difference--they're both old cars, right? laugh.gif

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't owe the world anything. History can go screw.</div></div>

Regretably that's the attitude of Too many people these days, Very Sad. smirk.gif

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Given everything else I've said here, I think you missed my point, which was in response to Twitch's comments. He was arguing that the primary reason we want to preserve Packards is because of what we think we owe to the future. At least I'm honest enough to say that the #1 reason I want to own a Packard is because I want to enjoy owning a Packard. Of course, while it's with me, it'll live to see as much of the future as I do. What happens to it after I'm dead is a matter for someone else to figure out. All I can be is its caretaker while I'm here. It's not like I'm going to have myself buried in it or anything. What else can I do? That's all I'm saying.

Tell me: Why did you buy your Packard instead of going to look at one in a museum? Is it because you enjoy driving it or merely because you want to preserve it for someone <span style="font-style: italic">else</span> in the future?

I know, you're going to say, "Both." Hopefully you can find a way to protect the car after you're dead. In the mean time, drive the doors off it. laugh.gif

PS: All that writing I did, and that's all you got out of it? Man, I'm definitely getting too verbose.

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I purchased my Packards as Restoration projects, a Hobby. To bring these Great machines and works of art back from the neglected condition they were in. Driving and showing them to others, is not as important as the self-satisfaction I recieve, in doing that.

That's not what I thought this tread was about, but about the attitude of some to Not consider the long term effects of their actions, in Not Preserving these Great Automobiles for future generations to enjoy as well.

Every person that Only considers theirself, and not the Future, is Not helping accomplish that. As stated above in several posts, by different members, Great 'Works of Art' are Timeless and should not be altered and defaced for the sake of making money or any one persons ideas of how it should be changed.

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Gang: I have been contemplating this issue for a while now, I have espoused my market-force analysis re: supply and demand as the vast majority of Packards are owned by people in the upper years of life (I have been on this in the general forums for a while). It has occurred to me that one thing that makes rodding a Packard SO disturbing, so near to a personal insult to some of us is that we have at play a difference of class, both real and perceived.

We see a '32 Ford chopped into a rod, either the old school way with a 59-A motor and some Offy gear or the new "sissy rods" with everything a new car comes with and we're basically OK with it, might even enjoy it. (some still will despise any vintage car that is rodded).

The fodder for rodding has traditionally been the production buckets--Fords, lower-priced GM and Plymouth-Dodge offerings, but mainly Fords. Fords were a cheap car (believe me, I know) and produced in mass quantities, the "raision d'etre" for their success.

Packards, until the success of the 120 models were the cars of the ruling class. Packards were not generally sold on time-payment plans--owners either could amply pay cash, or obtain a chattel mortgage, the most common method of buying a luxury car before WWII. GM saved the Cadillac brand from certain death by allowing Cadillacs to be bought through GMAC during the depth of the depression. The brand was almost single-handedly saved by middle-class blacks who admired the brand and bought in record numbers (source: "the Chrome Colossus" by Ed Cray)

Packard only sold luxury cars to <span style="font-style: italic">those that could afford them</span> and aside from perhaps Pierce-Arrow enjoyed an exclusivity that was steeped in class-consciousness. Many see the brand as the last word in class and sophistication.

I know Packard owners who sort of live out a fantasy of being of that blood despite their more humble beginnings, I have met a few who really are of that lineage (no comment), some who are pretty simple in their tastes and just like a well made machine (got it cheap back when) and many who are well aware of the distinction Packard enjoyed (especially in the 20s and 30s) and don't put on airs one way or the other, this is just the car they like.

I know some streetrod guys. I know some who are one generation removed from their family's migration north (to work in the auto factories) and whose speech is still very much in the south. I have met some rodders who are bank presidents and top executives and could afford any CCCA full classic they wanted, but it's just not for them. And I have seen every social class/personality type in between at Autorama or cruise nights with their rods, like them or not.

I think there is something about seeing a Packard rodded that incites a class judgment call in our minds. I know it does with me. Like seeing your sister, who took ballet and piano and was so polished marry Billy bob or Cooter and moving to a trailer park.

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm with you 100% Rick. We really are on the same page, my friend. laugh.gif </div></div>

Great, you had me a little Worried. grin.gif

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the new "sissy rods" with everything a new car comes with </div></div>

Sissy-Rods... Refit-Rods...

Man, I'm Learning all sorts of New Terminology. grin.gif

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Guest superods

Matt...

To answer your first question. I did at one time own interest in a company that built street rod bodies. Till my partner filed for divorce. That ended that. I became interested because this company was the only ONE building bodies with cutting edge technologies. It was patented and lisc. It was, and still is an accepted method of building high priced boats using vinyl estre resins and vacuum forming rather than wet laying. The resultant product is stronger, lighter and far more flexible than polyester resin fiberglass. We also built other things but the street rod bodies was the reason I became involved. So my focus was in that part of the business. The other parts paid the bills.

We built up our base to 24 different configurations of the 32-36 Fords, roadsters, cabriolets, hardtops, sedans etc. Also built 40 and 41 Willys 37-38 chevys and were going to get into more till his divorce. Then there was also a 1934 Ford that was created in Akron, at a company called Customs Unlimited. Jim Palosi and I collabrated on the design. We pulled a roadster body and parts from the molds and went to work. By the time we finished every inch of the car was altered. It was lengthened, widened, and channeled. It was a clam shelled convertible that boasted a removeable hardtop. It had a wrap round cockpit with waterfall...I could go on and on. You get the idea. And before you knew it competitors were doing the same thing. So you now have some background.

I toyed with the idea of purchasing the molds from Dwight. For about two days ! The problem with that was all the ancillary items. My man in columbus owns a very reputable chassis shop and supplies frame rails for 30 different car bodies to the best of the street rod shops in the USA...Ark Hot Rods. He spent his apprenticeship working for Bobby Rahal. He can build you anything you draw on paper our of chrome molly. At any rate he could build the rails for the replica packards and a few other things. So now we have body and chassis...what about all the rest of the stuff... to make this thing authentic. Dwight did all that when he built them. So lets do some maths....

Dwight's price on the molds..... 350k is his askin price.

Now you need someone committed to the process who is capable of building bodies and parts ...60k a year plus perks. Somewhere to do it. Huge EPA issues. Finding suppliers that will build all the components ie. bumpers. lamps, grille surrounds, grille shutters, hardware etc. Every part you need to have made that they cannot buy somewhere off the shelf. Because there is no competition they have that stigma you are rippin them off on parts...after all you can buy a ford bumper for 400 bucks and you want 1000 for yours..and at a thousand you are makin a lousy hundred bucks, if that. You are just tryin to sell the replicas is all.

So you have a million bucks initial investment with committments for 4 years on a lease and those people making so many pieces each year that you must purchase if you sell one body or 100. Thier pricing reflects no risk just amortized over 4 years is the best one could do. That million I just dumped in costs me 120k a year in lost revenues in the market or other investments. Keep that in mind. Now we just shelled out a bundle and we have monthly operating expenses ...employees... new equipment at about 25k per month. You need to build inventory before you can sell a car. You need to build a car of each so they can see what it is you are selling. Inventories of 6 each vehicle.....120k. You have some pieces and parts to buy for another 100k to begin you committment to all the vendors you signed a contract for 4 years to produce pieces and parts. Budget for sales is another 50k a year for shows and all your time. Build two cars at 75k apiece. How much do you have to sell just a body and chassis package for ....30k minimum based on square in a 136 inch wheelbased car. If I did it they would all be the 142 inch long nosed versions.

So year one you lose 400k....year two you only lose 200k and year three another 100k. Where does that come from? How long do you think before you get a return on your investment. What about the 120k each year i lose on the initial. The other money is borrowed. The deal goes belly up and I just lost 2 million bucks. Do you think would put two million dollars at risk to build two replica packards for resale? How many would I have to sell to recoup my money? How long before that happens. The market would be flooded with these two cars styles before you know it and sales begin to fall. So how many investors have I just garnered with that bit of reality. So looking at it from my perspective.

I take the money I earn on that 2 million and buy right a half dozen Packards ...Stutz...Caddilacs etc...do as I so see fit... by year three.... after I enjoy them a year or so.... I am making money and reinvesting it and enjoying myself not worrying about a thing. Enjoying all the cars I build and sell. Buying more expensive ones as I go along allowing my folly to help finance it.

There you have it matt. Sounds like a plan yes? I will let you know 5 years from know how it thrashes out. Regardless my suggestion to anyone with some extra money... invest in CELGENE. Go to http://www.celgene.com ...read up on it. I have made a bundle on it to date. Do not buy it today ...watch it and see how much money you lose by not doing so !!! Just send me my 5% for telling you about it.

OK now I have your attention...come on over matt... if there is anything you may be interested in we can talk. I never say never for profit is not a dirty word. The one I would most consider selling for someone to put back to original is the 1930 733 Convertible Coupe. The NADA says 57k....102k.....164k. Anyone can go to the site and see that for themselves. And as I see it..if you are buying you want to pay as little as possible and if you selling you want to get as much as you can. So that is what it is worth. This is your kind of car matt but I would not sell it to you till I enjoy it this summer. And I have others that may interest you.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What one person thinks is a lot is not by another person's calculations. Even when someone says 50 cars or 200 cars or whatever number have been rodded it is simply a misnomer because if he doesn't supply the ratio number, 50 or 200 are meaningless. </div></div>

Twitch, this makes two threads where you've demonstrated thoroughly how little you appreciate the relative rarity of the cars we're talking about. In the other thread you suggested that there are communities in the U.S. where 50 1932 Packard Victorias could be found, and that losing one to a sissy-rod conversion is therefore no big deal. Here the "ratio number" would be immediately obvious to anyone who has an understanding of the production rates and survival rates of Full Classics.

And as much as you insist that no one knows how many of these cars are left, we do. Really, we do.

I don't mean to pick on you personally, but merely want to point out how much of a misunderstanding of the reality of the situation is necessary for attitudes like this to take root. This level of misinformation can be ignorance or it can be willful. What it certainly <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> is destructive.

We're watching the hobby eat itself here, and a lot of the crowd is too entertained to care and rationalizing the giggles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It becomes tantamount to the Sierra Club's warped thinking that even though no one will ever see the spotted woodcock it's nice to know they're out there living safe. Of course the only people who will ever see it is the elitist Sierra Club higher ups. And of course the people that will never see them are the very ones subsidizing the cost of the the boondoggle. </div></div>

That's just offensive.

As for the rest, it's the denial talking.

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This is a great thread from both sides of the spectrum.

Warmer weather is almost upon us here in the windy city. Soon I will be able to get back out to garage and get some more body work done on Old Bessie. In the mean I enjoy reading all your comments….

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People, my point is that a whole extended discussion full of "what ifs" is based on flawed numbers. Rather no numbers. To cherry pick certain especially rare cars is beyond the point. To say the Bugatti Royale should not be modded goes without saying, but how many 1933 or 1935 Packards exist today? How many 47 Cadillacs? Nobody knows. That's the whole point. Building a house of cards on "a lot" or "dozens" is senseless. I'm not even taking about the cars just the math. No one knows the X factor, X= a quantity. It's making me lose faith in logic here that no one realizes that we can't make any estimates of projections unless we know X!

And as for any rare cars, well you know there are a lot of cars I'm never going to see. A lot of people are never going to see them because they dwell in distant locations and most folks are never going there. These rare cars might not exist since I can see them in photographic form only. To Zen about it, do they exst at all if the majority cannot see them?

Unless these especially rare cars are in museums even local folks aren't going to see them. These cars come out very rarely at places like Pebble Beach which the vast majority of auto enthusiast will never be able to attend.

So we're back to the Sierra Club thinking that even though no one will ever see them, besides the Club's upper echelon, it's nice to know they're out there. Only a few will see the rare Packard or Delahaye.

Now if they were in museums they'd be accessable to everyone. Perhaps we should grab them as public domain excercise so the masses can gaze upon them.

Again I am not using any specific model of car where we know a very small number exist. It is rare that we know. By the most part all we know is that there is some finite number of each auto that was ever built existing.

Do we all consider the 13 existing factory Hemicudas that are worth a zillion dollars each as rare and valuable as a 34 Packard?

Time and again we hear the sad lament of no younger blood joining national clubs. No they're no all into Jap tuner cars and late model Mustangs. But when they see dogmatic rhetoric shaming those that dare to modify cars it is a turn off. It's a reason why they stay away from clubs in general- being told how they should keep their cars.

And if people want to own cars as close to 100 pointers as possible that are 100% stock, stock, stock, that's great. But they are a minority selling a point of view that the majority of hobby cars owners don't agree with. Fanatically repeating the business about passing down history and adhering to club rules makes them about as popluar as the religious nut people that come to you house trying to convert you. Sure some love being the martyr, I can tell, but they soon become a tragic joke.

Only in the last part of the last century has the human race had the inclination, leisure time or wealth to triffle with antique things and place some abnormal value on them.

Now suddenly we have a snooty sub-culture that tends to look down on those who don't share their wishes to restore old buildings, collect 78RPM reocrds or perserve some old relic. Funny how the world got along for 1000s of years without the need to save and reviere old stuff.

The veneration to a near religious status of any "thing" is just blasphemy even to the religion-changers that troll your neighborhood. The idols and graven images worship is just weird folks. If it's not cars it another fringe group that reveres antique phonographs or telephones or coo-coo clocks to the extreme where they block out all other collectors and points of view.

Geez we even have more than one viable religion on the planet but these people will tolerate only one automotive hobby philosophy.

If we should only be concerned about "full classics" we're whizzing up a rope. When did full classics become so inexpensive that they are purchased by rodders in an ongoing basis. Just because one guy, Superod, did it or may do it is not indicative of any trend or movement other than out of the whiners' tail ends.

First it's that rodders are regularly spending 36K for cars to use a few parts from now it's cars in the class of Dusenberg, Delage, Voisin and Bugatti valued in the half million dollar range?! 32 Packard Victorias in this price range have little probability of being rodded. This is pure lunacy if anyone believes they do.

So if all we're concerned with are "full classics" then the hell with hobby/special interest/vintage/collector cars. They're godless boobs right? Let them fend for themselves for they don't believe like we believe.

When does it go from enthusiast to elistist? From collector to bigot? I am so tired of hearing the same harangue about people who have made different automotive hobby choices being viewed as though they are savages.

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And I'm tired of hearing how people who want to preserve the most special of antique cars in their original form and are vocal about their passion for doing so referred to as a<span style="font-style: italic">"snooty sub-culture"</span> or <span style="font-style: italic">"elitist bigots."</span>

You're still completely missing the point. Modifying /= gutting. And even if I never see the spotted woodcock in the flesh, I can still care about its existence.

At least we're not naming names. Oh, wait a minute, I guess we are...

Sincerely,

The aforementioned person who

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...wishes to restore old buildings...</div></div>

PS: Flawed your reasoning is. All math is logic, but all logic isn't math. That is why you fail (say it in a Yoda voice before you get angry grin.gif).

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