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Resto Rod ????


Guest 1956Packard

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom,

We will never understand why this happens but more power to them I guess since money is no probably to some people out there. Sure wish it would grow on my tree in the yard smile.gif </div></div>

Well unfortunately a rod made out of a Packard close car will bring more money than a stock one. Perhaps the rest of the car needs restoration and it's a incomplete unfinsihed project. Tt's hard to tell from the pictures. But look at it this way, one less stock packard, will make your stock Packard more valuable. cool.gif

Maybe he had the engine rebuilt twice.

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So, different question, but why do people prefer open cars. I have both, and I think both of my cars are pretty dang cool. However, I have a real appreciation for the interior of these older closed cars. The cool little details of the interior are just not seen on open cars. Same goes for the more interesting fabrics, etc. I mean, people get off on this 'Queer guys with straight arrows' or whatever, so why not original interior design of cars? This is something that has bothered me as late. Of course, I have been bothered far more by dreams of being chased by Irish Wolfhounds, but that is a different story.

Tom

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Depending on what special work might have been needed like spray-welding a crankshaft and/or camshaft oversize and grinding back to standard, repairing block cracks, sleeving cylinder bores and the like, a top-notch engine job on one of these 8s can easily top $20,000 if you include cosmetics like redoing all the nickel plate under the hood, reporcelainizing the manifolds, and having starters, generators, and waterpumps rebuilt, hardened exhaust valve seats installed etc., and recoring the radiator to cope with the added new engine friction which the old radiator usually can no longer handle. Such prices are not uncommon for top-notch work. That said, the engine in question surely doesn't show that attention to detail, at least externally. Let's hope it's better internally.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, different question, but why do people prefer open cars. I have both, and I think both of my cars are pretty dang cool. However, I have a real appreciation for the interior of these older closed cars. The cool little details of the interior are just not seen on open cars. Same goes for the more interesting fabrics, etc. I mean, people get off on this 'Queer guys with straight arrows' or whatever, so why not original interior design of cars? This is something that has bothered me as late. Of course, I have been bothered far more by dreams of being chased by Irish Wolfhounds, but that is a different story.

Tom </div></div>

I also wonder why people don't like touring cars as much as 5 passenger open cars.

In regards to open vs. close, I've alway been told it's because these cars are driven in fair weather and so the top is down. Plus as an ego thing, you are easier seen in an open car than in a close car. I prefer driving my car with the top down as it has nuch better visibility I I think it's more fun with the top down.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Idiot. </div></div>If that was direced at me I was only kidding around here... Will delete my posts and will not make comments like that anymore. Sorry...

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I don't think that was directed at you, Tom. Steve, I hope that was directed at the eBayer. What a waste of a good car. That's just wrong. I like hot rods and street rods, but I don't like the demolition of good restorable cars, especially if they're rare... and I don't care if it's a Ford roadster or a Packard coupe. On top of that, VERY FEW of these cars end up looking any good when they're done.

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Guest imported_Speedster

The Idiots are the people that are buying these RestoRods and paying way Too Much for them. Not so much the people building them, since they are Only doing it for the Money. To them, making money is just more Important than perserving a vintage car.

Concerning those buyers, it's back to the ol' phrase:

'More Money than Sense'

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Doesn't add up. Hot rod guys don't spent 20 Gs on stock running gear. Looks like it's a situation where somebody got involved way beyond a normal restoration and realized, or his wife realized, how much more it was going to take to finish htis car off. Looks like a case of investing more than the finished car will be worth.

There is nothing saying someone will not make him an offer for the engineless car. There are Packard people out there who have motive power in their garages that could be mated up with this car if they got it for a decent price.

How blasphemous would it be if someone bought the car a dropped a 56 Packard V-8 in it instead of straight 8?

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Hey Geoff....

It would be interesting to know the "real scoop" behind the sale....a new eBayer with no feedback, and the engine looks like it has a good bit of rust and dirt as if it has been sitting for a long time (a major caveat to any buyer as to how it has been stored).

I suspect you are correct in that someone is getting ready to rod the car...why else sell only the drivetrain and not the entire car as one would a project gone upside down?

Anyone recognize the open car with sidemounts in the background?

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Guest 51Patty400

From the picture, there is another car rusting in the background. Maybe he found a better candiate for restoring those parts to improve his '38?

Sadly it sounds like he's gonna put a different motor etc in the car :-(

- Mark

'51 Patrician 400

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SORRY Gents - I thought the intent of my post was clear - yes, it was directed at the eBayer, certainly not any of the regulars here, who I enjoy very much. Especially not Tom who has never posted anything I would consider remotely objectionable or controversial! It didn't even dawn on me anyone would think any different. frown.gif

Not as articulate as West of course (heck he gets paid to write!), but exact same sentiments on hot rods in general. I admit I do like the traditional Ford rods. When I do build mine it will be with my spare A stuff and either a repop body or poor original. Getting close on enough stuff to build a hot 4, but I digress..

As to the 20K, looks like the engine has been in there a while, maybe an older restoration. Someone about to chop/slam/subframe/whatever a car like that would never just make up a silly figure to sell the drivetrain, would they? wink.gif

Sorry for the confusion, guys!

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Not to dredge up an old argument but we exchanged some ideas on the "resto-rod" thing a year or so ago on this forum, this new thread got me thinking. If I remember right I predicted around 5% of true Classics would be lost before this trend or fad passes. West put the figure a bit more, I think.

These are not so rare that they are shocking anymore. And they certainly are not generally being made from cars that are otherwise too far gone. Just got my "Hagerty Newsletter" and it featured one (Packard also)in the collection of Clive Cussler. Pretty popular trend right now. Unlike period incorrect paint these heavy mods are generally irreversable. I think West's higher estimate may be true. Unfortunate indeed for the purest.

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Steve,

Thanks for clearing the air here. It was me I should have know better. It was early when I read that so lets blame it on my eyes and brain that were still waking up blush.gifsmirk.gif

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Guest imported_Speedster

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still think the guy got in too deep financially and is attempting to pad his losses. </div></div>

Yep, His Wife said, "You Spent How Much on that Old Car ? !!!". grin.gif

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Here's a re-brodcast of what

I threw on the pile the last time we had this conversation.

My position has not changed in the last year or so since I wrote this:

Guys, I have come to the sad conclusion that this what we will be seeing in the future. a great deal of the men who have owned Packards are now getting up in years, their children do not share the love for Packards, or antique autos in general, and hot-street rodding is growing in popularity thanks to television and magazine publishers, and let's not forget the hokum factory that is the Barrett-Jackson hypefest every January. I've said this before on the "general discussion" pages here: the hot-rod guys have climbed every mountain possible with Ford bodies, and they are looking for new summits to conquer. At one point the supply of pre-war Packards IS going to exceed the demand, and there won't be enough spots in museums to take them. I hope to get a 33-34 Packard eight someday, and I think it will be much easier 15 years from now. I stated this theory/opinion at a CCCA function about 5 years ago, and made some people unhappy, but of the entire reigon, only two of the men in the group have sons that like/want the cars. It's a simple supply/demand connect-the-dots question

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I follow the pricing of the pre-war open Packard especially 32-34 (because I own one) which have significantly risen in 2 years. 2 years ago a 32 Twelve roadster could be had for $250K. That is now the price of a Super eight. A 32 twelve just sold at an RM auction for $660K. I have not followed other years pricing as closely so my has blind spots. Speaking with a classic car dealer, he indicated that a new generation of buyers are looking for 32-34 open cars (and other open pre-war classic cars) which was driving the prices up. There seems not as much a demand for pre-war closed cars though which is keeping that pricing flat. The classic argument for muscle cars, is the are hot because that's what was hot in high school. For a 1932 car, the owner would had have to be 97 years old if he was in high school in 1932. So I think most of those have died off, while the prices continue to rise.

I agree that they is a larger per capita demand for muscle cars, but there are a lot more of those cars. There's a lot less of these pre-war cars than muscle cars. Even the brass cars are in very high demand today. I went to an auction last year trying to "steal" some brass cars. They quickly soared over $100K and higher and these were #3+ cars.

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Guest superods

A 1933 Packard Super 8 Club Sedan listed for 37k in Hemmings. It had some issues according to the man at Victory Cars in Flordia who sold it last week for less than the asking price.

Sooo ....according to the numbers you just gave us on open vs closed cars Birdman....that calculates to 215k "light". That price, in comparison, is not flat.... it is "squashed".

I am just bummed I did not get there first !!

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Guest 39Super8

I think the only way to ensure Packards have any chance of continuing to be preserved, restored, displayed, and taken on tours is to continue to engage young people. I say continue because at the PI shows I have attended, I noticed that the club had a junior judging class. This is encouraging, and instills young people with respect and appreciation for these fine automobiles.

I think it is important to remember that there is a glut of affordable Packards. If people are supported and encouraged who have less desirable years and models, then as they grow and earn, they are likely to move up the collecting ladder. However if these same individuals, (or years and models of Packards) are snubbed, why wouldn’t they street rod them.

I am one of these young people who were never around when Packard was even much of a distant memory. The history I preserve is not my own, but that of a time long before mine. I could easily put a small block Chevy in my car, but choose to take the roll of custodian / caretaker.

Clubs and sites such as this are the only way to draw in the Packard collectors of tomorrow. The way people in these clubs and chat sites treat young people, and newcomers will directly effect the future survival of Packard automobiles. We should all think about it…

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Not to change the topic, but I have a friend with a very nice older restoration 1939 Lincoln Zephyr coupe. He's been offered good money for it from several hot rodders who would destroy it. He will only sell it to someone who will keep it original, and has found a potential buyer for it now. A current Packard Club/AACA member.

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Realistically if you own a car in nice condition making it worth a substantial amount in the evaluation game, people looking for hot rod material are not going to invest large amounts of money into a vehicle that will yield them, in truth, only a few useable parts.

36 Packard coupes ala NADA values go from $32-50,000+ in condition from "average" to "high retail." Just who is going to drop 40 grand an walk away with a body and a few other odd parts. Rodders are not very trustworthy of 30s chassis components at all. Why should they be when they can buy a NEW rolling chassis with full modern suspension and disc brakes for like $8,200?

Rodders don't trust 70 year old parts with 500HP engines. You know you wouldn't so why would they? It might be fun to image they are dumber than you are but they're not.

It's very hard to believe that a 39 Zephyr worth $24-36,000 in "average " or High retail" condition would be bought after he told them its value. Deco Rides has a superb new glass Zephyr bodies in several configurations for under 10 grand. If I am to follow the logic a rodder could have a new, modern rolling chassis and body for less than an "average" original Zephyr costs, before modification. Throw in another 10 for a crate engine and interior and you spent 28 grand for essentially a NEW Zephyr at less than the cost of museum quality original.

Sorry but as soon as any potential rodder heard what a decent 39 is valued at he'd rapidly change his focus to the kit. I'm tired of hearing that same broken logic that rodders will pay top dollar for restored originals over brand new replica technology.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 1933 Packard Super 8 Club Sedan listed for 37k in Hemmings. It had some issues according to the man at Victory Cars in Flordia who sold it last week for less than the asking price.

Sooo ....according to the numbers you just gave us on open vs closed cars Birdman....that calculates to 215k "light". That price, in comparison, is not flat.... it is "squashed".

I am just bummed I did not get there first !! </div></div>

I also saw it and tried to make a move--I even got my home equity loan in order. It was gone when I called. I was so wound up, I probably would have bought it sight-unseen.

Perhaps I dodged a bullet...

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I won't disagree with anything you said, but I know for a fact this in this particular situation he was offered 35K on 2 seperate occasions from street rodders for his 1939 Zephyr coupe. What the street rodders do is join the Zephyr club for one year to get the membership directory & call every single person with a Zephyr coupe to see what they can buy. This particular car is in high 3 or low 2 condition. He's going to sell it for 32K to a purist. Thank goodness some people have principles.

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Guest 1956Packard

Twitch. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

As long as people are sitting around looking at stupid prices being bid during our favourite 'classic' car auction then original cars will be at risk.

Every time a rodded up version gets sold for a price which is higher than the value of an unmolested car I will lose sleep. I may be wrong, but wasn't it just in the last year or so that a rodded Lincoln Zephyr hit the realm of ridiculous at auction???

The only saving grace may be that Packards are already at a bit of a price premium (model dependant). Also, I wonder that Packard body styles are just not as desired as with other makes.

I argue this weeds out many of the guys who want to rod one up 'cause they have nothing else to do. It doesn't stop the ones with the resources.

As for the car which was the origin of this thread. I’ll bet it was bought from someone who started a restoration and got in over his head. Partially completed the car would have a depressed price.

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Mr. Restorer wrote "I personally know of a '33 Packard Coupe Sedan that was puchased for $35,000+ just for the sheetmetal to create a rod. The value to a rodder is as much in the Classic Car mystique as in the actual metal"

That's it exactly. The days of adult rodders with money bringing home a rusty old shell are gone. They face the same thing restorers do - a very small supply of remaining truly decent unrestored pre-war project cars. But nowadays they can pay for quality. Why fix rust if you can afford not to deal with it in the first place.

Then there is the mystique factor. Consider a 32 Ford 3 window. Fiberglass is around 10K, steel is double that, Henry Ford steel is much more for the shell alone. Due solely to mystique and history. These guys have their own levels of desirability and often look down on the kits.

I have seen a lot of hot rodded Sr. Packards in the last year, could be wrong but I just don't think there are enough unrestored examples out there to make all these cars out of.

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Think about what you'll are saying. People are so rich they are buying 35K cars for the body only then putting, what, that much again into creating a rod with modern chassis, running gear etc. If people got that rich they aren't that stupid or they would never have made money in the 1st place.

I'll concede that there may have been isolated cases of unknowing numbies offering more than an original is worth to build a modern tech rod but they are not average, everyday operations that rod guys do.

Many rod builders are excellent craftsmen and know the value of their labor. And it's strange that I continually see photos on rod sites of assorted bodies only that are for sale. Some photos dipict several acres of 30s-60s bodies and partial cars. This means there are a lot out there. What does a restorer do with a 32 Cadillac coupe body? Find all the other parts that make a car and construct one? A rodder will use a decaying 32 Cad body he will not buy an entire, restored 32 Cad just for the body.

A 32 Ford 3 window glass body is $6,500 new. Steel repro is $8,330. Again, nobody is buying restored 32 Fords at $30,000+ for a body they can buy NEW at $8,330!

I can show you every website regarding available, existing replica parts and prices for a 39 Zephyr and 32 Fords.

Of course everybody has a story that perpetrates that it happens all the time when it doesn't. Sorry, but urban myths like this are the kind of things that divide the auto hobby culture.

And look at the white Packard with the Chevy engine. It is outwardly stock, a tribute to the design. If car hobbies go on long enough it is conceivable that one distant day there will be few Packard engines in running order and a V-8 will keep the cars running.

And if we continue as devil's advocate even if a bad old hot rodder did buy a car just for the body I'll bet he'd sell the the entire rest of the car for a pittance. It should be worth it to those who can follow a sale such as this and recover the complete rest of the car.

Let us hear from ya when you buy the bodyless car some rodder tossed out!

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Twitch--it IS happening, regardless of the personal economics. Some guys just don't like replica bodies--there is one little crease Henry put into that body that no replica manufacturer can afford to replicate because the tooling (to the small-time replica outfit) to put that crease in is another 35% over what they have already spent.

It is happening. Pick up a copy of "Hot Rod" and read it and weep. They say right in the text "we bought this restored original for the body, took it off the chassis, sold all that old junk then built (Chebby 350/350 tranny, Ford 9" rear end, Rustang II front end, Summit this and that--custom, just like everyone else)the rod you see.

They don't have the patience to "save a junkyard relic", nor do they, like us original guys want to spend the time and money resurrecting the dead. If the right '32 Cadillac came up for sale, maybe an older restoration, and a rod guy wanted it and was comfortable paying,that's it, deal done.

There has been a gradual shift in rodding from its early days in the 50s when young guys (who couldn't dream of having a new car unless daddy was rich) snapped up all of the tired 30s cars (beat to death during the war) and could build a hot machine on the cheap using what was out there, to the current Riddler award standard where it's cool to dump a fortune into that custom. Right now, in downtown Detroit Autorama is running, starts tonight. It's a celebration of this mindset, and the only value they see in original cars is the body, as a donor to a rod. And they have money, and they ARE spending it to disassemble original, restored cars.

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Guest 1956Packard

Twitch:

I respect what your saying, and it is true. But, I think we all have to agree that what we are describing is happening - and to an alarming degree.

These cars are around, they are NOT urban myths. We all know of examples.

I know for a fact that there have been offers of selling engines and associated parts on this very forum from running restored Packards that were being 'converted' to modern running gear.

My worry is that it is happening to a greater and greater degree all the time. And to me that is a real shame. I for one weep when I see that stock car with the chevy engine in it. I hate to say it, that is not just an incredible waste but is plain lazy.

To pull this back on topic, please tell me I'm wrong, but I don't see any Packard glass or steel repro bodies. If I'm correct those cars, that we all know about, have come from somewhere.

Geoff

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Agree, 1956 Packard. $35K is not a lot of money when looking to build a $100K car.

Twitch, you are correct about lower end kit prices. But to clarify my point look at Wescott's (high teens for 'glass!)and Brookville's price (24 grand, base - they have reportedly sold quite a few of according to their site) on '32 3 windows. Generally they are recognized as leading builders of these cars. I would argue that original tin will exceed Brookvilles $24K price, by a good bit as original 3 windows are rare indeed. My point wasn't so much price on the replicas though, I used ballpark. It is really about the difference that the intangible history/mystique brings. And the fact that if a "run of the mill" Brookvillle '32 sells for 24 grand all day long then what's a bit more to be different? Really in the same ballpark as a mint original steel 3 window shell (at least the last roller I saw was in the $35k range).

Also, many of these guys count on recouping some of the $$ on selling off the parts. Coincidently I had a guy call me out of the blue last night I met at a show last fall. He is rodding a totally original (paint, interior etc. etc.) Model A coupe. Of course he wants to sell parts, and there is a market for them here. I think he called me because I was a little more polite when hearing about his plans than some others were. So a few of us get some nice parts anyway..

My guess is the seller that touched off this thread is speculating, the more he pulls out of the sold parts the more he can fund the project. A better long term strategy may be to not cut it up to the point of no return, and keep the original parts. Most want the $$$, though.

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