Any Scottish Argyll's Out There?

Hi Bob,

This is just an engine and radiator at this stage but watch this space...

Pics now attached.

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Guys this engine is very much the same as a 15 hp car that one of my customers has , I have been doing work on the car over the past few years every thing from engine to the wheels . I will ask my customer if I am able to post pic and information or if he would wish to do so .Good to see Argyle on the form, will come back to you wery soon Bob

Guys this engine is very much the same as a 15 hp car that one of my customers has , I have been doing work on the car over the past few years every thing from engine to the wheels . I will ask my customer if I am able to post pic and information or if he would wish to do so .Good to see Argyle on the form, will come back to you wery soon Bob

A note to add ,just found my working copy of the hand book and in the back is a image that looks very much like a 12 hp motor, as this of a drawing type the exhaust manifold apears the same . more to follow Bob

Good to see this thread surfacing again. I've been remiss in not scanning the postcard that I promised so long ago. I'll try and get at it once we get a little spare time. Meanwhile I do have this wonderful advertising book mark that I found shortly after this thread originally appeared. It's celluloid bookmark and is very fragile. Amazing it survived all those years. I was trying to research the possible date on this and from what I've learned the company who produced this (Whitehead and Hoag) were only in business in the UK a brief time. I believe this to be a 1908/1909 piece - can you help me with a more accurate guess?

thanks,

Terry

Hi Alex,

I'm at the museum this week and will put aside a couple of hours to get out my Argyll archive to confirm what I have here at home. I like to give the best information I can and the core of my research is there.

Hi Terry - long time, no see!

That's a fabulous bit of advertising, everybody focuses on Argyll's demise, but I'm focused on their extensive and world-wide advertising. May I make a copy of your bookmark image and 'place' it into our Argyll image archive crediting you as its owner of course?

Great bookmark Terry.

i appreciate your time Bob. Is there any info you are specially looking for encase I come across anything thatcan add to your research as well?

Finally Robert in Australia.... You dont have a scanned copy of the handbook do you or I couldnt send you some $ to print off a copy?

A note to add ,just found my working copy of the hand book and in the back is a image that looks very much like a 12 hp motor, as this of a drawing type the exhaust manifold apears the same . more to follow Bob

The few pics here when we first started working on the car about 2 years ago , the car is now running and driveable and road rego (limited )and runs wery well . The car is a 1912 15 hp " colonial body " Argyle , the owner has had the car for about fifty years and has been slowly obtaining the necessary parts to compleate restoration . More pic and info to follow Bob

Over the next week I will see what I can do with the hand book and more info on the 15 hp car as well . Bob

Great looking project! And very interesting body!

Is it a colonial body like D and F?

Went through my notes this afternoon and this is the closest I can get to match your engine's pictures Alex - I would say its a c1913 12HP, however I'm being a little canny here as the image I have shows a slightly different shaped inlet manifold hence the 'circa' 1913. That said I would reckon there's only a year in it either way.

The down side is I'm having difficulty trying to place your engine number in the list I have as yours is the first 'IA' I've come across and I'm leaning towards Argyll started to use 'export' sequencing in their ID numbers late on in production, but this is a pure guess.

Just for grins could you tell me does the radiator badge says Argyll or Tarrant - its a long-shot as I've never found anybody with a Tarrant, which are basically copies of Argyll cars?

Bob, when I was searching for Alex's engine I remembered I had this as well -

Hi Terry - long time, no see!

That's a fabulous bit of advertising, everybody focuses on Argyll's demise, but I'm focused on their extensive and world-wide advertising. May I make a copy of your bookmark image and 'place' it into our Argyll image archive crediting you as its owner of course?

I'd be honored to have contributed something to your archive so feel free to copy. I tried to do some research on this piece and learned that Whitehead and Hoag did not produce many bookmarks so this must be a pretty scarce item. I know of one other similar bookmark advertising a Ford dealership in the UK. I wonder how many other car manufacturers might have been represented among their production? I will try get that postcard scanned for you, and I may have a couple of others too.

Terry

Alex reply to your pm bob

Guys some time latter this week I will post more pics of the Argyle as is now as we have up and running , have to do some work in the magneto and in stall a advance / retard to it as it is to dangerious to start on the fixed magneto . The engine needs good advance to get the power from the motor as we have some good hills here to climb at times. After I post more pics I will outline some of the work done to put this car back as one. Regards Bob

Just me 'bumping' hoping for some more feedback.

Just me 'bumping' hoping for some more feedback.

Fantastic - thank you Bob! :cool:

Give me a few days and I'll get back to you with anything that the numbers reveal.

Great photos thanks for posting

At last I've gone through my collection of antique postcards and come up with what I believe are a few Argyle images. I started collecting cards when we were living in Scotland, so a lot of the cards in my collection are European. I have hundreds covering all types including real photo (as these are) as well as humor, artist signed, series, etc.etc. I believe there are a few comic postcards done photograph style that also used an Argyle and I'll dig those out and scan. Ok eagle-eyes-are these really Argyle cars? The car shown under the Archway is the car that was discovered still surviving (in pieces) years later.

Terry

Hi Terry,

Thank you for sharing these excellent images, they're very much appreciated.

To business -

Image 1: Only my opinion, but to me its not an Argyll, radiator profile doesn't match the versions I know. I recognise it, but can I think of it right now, no I can't.

Image 2 & 3: Definitely Argylls.

Image 4: Leaning towards 'not an Argyll' I'm afraid - however the external profile of the radiator is Argyll'esque, but so are Sunbeams and Cadillacs if you squint hard enough. Sadly other key identification points are masked, I hate it when people pose in front of their cars! LOL!

Thanks for your quick response. Once I blew up the scan of #1 it quickly became evident the radiator shape was not correct for an Argyle. Interesting though that when I saw that photo in the Glen Esk museum (lager version of the postcard) it led me to the remains of an Argyle. Uncanny connection I guess. So wonder what this car really was and where it ended up? Could be a treasure-hunt in the making. The radiator shape closely resembles picture #4. Will take a closer look thru the other postcards and see what turns up.

Terry

Hi Bob,

I've sat down with the numbers you posted and they line up with other 1910 Argyll's with one exception - the 'X' in the alpha-numeric stamps is a new letter to me and I'm thinking it denotes an export identifier as your model was specifically manufactured for export only.

May I ask please if you look at your front 'engine to chassis' mounting on the exhaust side there'll be a number stamped into it, something like 1M 6 S 0 123, could you let me know what's stamped into it?

The picture below is from a similar model and you'll notice the exhaust manifold is the other way around and the spark plug positioning is slightly different to one of your engine images. I can see the hole in the firewall on your example so I'm assuming it was a conscious decision on your part to re-route the exhaust, but beware, purists will point that out.

Hi Bob,

I've sat down with the numbers you posted and they line up with other 1910 Argyll's with one exception - the 'X' in the alpha-numeric stamps is a new letter to me and I'm thinking it denotes an export identifier as your model was specifically manufactured for export only.

May I ask please if you look at your front 'engine to chassis' mounting on the exhaust side there'll be a number stamped into it, something like 1M 6 S 0 123, could you let me know what's stamped into it?

The picture below is from a similar model and you'll notice the exhaust manifold is the other way around and the spark plug positioning is slightly different to one of your engine images. I can see the hole in the firewall on your example so I'm assuming it was a conscious decision on your part to re-route the exhaust, but beware, purists will point that out.

Yes there is a number stamped there and in the pic I to can not read it ,will get the owner to forward it to us soon . The exhaust was modified meny years ago when this engine ran an irrigation pump (motor out of car of corse ) and until we can find a replacment or after the buggs are all worked out we are going to correct these things . Info soon Bob

Thanks Bob - any ID number if the owner is comfortable sharing (engine, gearbox and / or rear axle) here or by PM really helps.

I can't promise anything remarkable, but whatever I can come up with I'm sure would add to its history, it certainly helps me.

Just a visit hoping this 'bump' might open up new contacts who might wish to share Argyll information they may have with me for my research project?

Good to see the name Argyll again and catch up on things.   It's an interesting coincidence that I just wrote an brief article about the three-cylinder rolls.   It was published in the Hornets Nest Region newsletter.  I was pleased to learn the car is now being cared for and has been on display at the Glasgow transportation museum - is it still on display?  We're planning a trip next year to Scotland and would love to see the museum and visit "the old gal" once again.  Let's keep in touch as our plans fall into place so we can get a visit and meet you in person.  

Terry

I just came across this pic of a hubcap and a 14 Argyll. I thought you might nat have seen it, Dave

http://www.hubcapcollector.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1&page=4

i know of an Argyll overland here in Brisbane in restored condition it is old it has cabin headlights

Always glad to see this chain of posts surfacing.  Think you mean carbide headlights. 

Was just curious, being a spark plug collector - I have a plug in my collection marked Aster.  It's very early and was made especially for the early Aster engines.  Like De Dion Bouton, they were used in a lot of early automobiles.  Does anyone know for sure what engines were used in the earliest of the Argyles?  I've heard Aster and also De Dion but always though it was just De Deion?  I also have an early De Dion Bouton plug in my collection, still in it's original wooden tube.   

Terry

On 7/27/2018 at 6:04 PM, Terry Bond said:

Always glad to see this chain of posts surfacing.  Think you mean carbide headlights. 

Was just curious, being a spark plug collector - I have a plug in my collection marked Aster.  It's very early and was made especially for the early Aster engines.  Like De Dion Bouton, they were used in a lot of early automobiles.  Does anyone know for sure what engines were used in the earliest of the Argyles?  I've heard Aster and also De Dion but always though it was just De Deion?  I also have an early De Dion Bouton plug in my collection, still in it's original wooden tube.   

Terry

Hi Terry,

I've just come across your question, my apologies, its been a while(!) since I last visited.

The earliest Argyll's (1900 /01) I've come across used De Dion and Motoring Manufacturing Engine Co., Ltd single-cylinder engines in its 2 3/4 and 5hp versions.  

Thanks for the reply and photos.  Those single cylinder engines are fantastic.  I'd never seen one with the Motor Manufacturing, Coventry cast into the crank-case.  Wonder what other cars the were used in? 

Since we've started this conversation about the Argyll, I've been working on a new seminar to be presented at the AACA Annual Convention in Philadelphia this coming February (if it goes off as planned).  The seminar is titled "The Automobiles Built in Scotland."  I've been doing a lot of digging and have come up with some interesting and unusual (and rare) vehicles, even some that were not well known.  There are some interesting stories so it choose files...should make an interesting presentation.  I've been able to find a lot of period photographs in my search so there will be photos of cars that really haven't been publicly seen before.  

Thought you'd enjoy seeing photos of the plugs I mentioned - the brass plug marked "Aster" was of course used in the car of the same name.  The smaller green colored porcelain core plug with a "W" inside a star stamped on the base was used in the Whitlock-Aster automobile and is very early.   The De Dion Bouton plugs come in several different colors that identify their intended application.   Take a look also at the Spark Plug thread in the Memorabilia forum for some info on the Peck spark plug, which was also made in Scotland.   Again, some interesting stories about the early automobile industry of Scotland.

Terry

Hi Terry,

The Scottish car industry is (in my opinion) very interesting, the number of manufacturers for such a small country in the early 1900's is surprising. I hope preparing your presentation has been a voyage of discover for you, it certainly was me when I joined Glasgow Museums. 

'The 3 'A's' (Albion, Argyll & Arrol Johnston*) probably are the best known Scottish makes, but there's a lot more lesser known tiny manufacturers that you hopefully have come across. Sadly with this Covid epidemic the museum has been closed since March and my research work has come almost to a halt barring 'Argyll' as all my manufacturer records are on file there. 

*Has your research led you to the Antarctic Arrol Johnston, a very interesting and unique car used on the Shackleton 'Nimrod Expedition' in 1907 / 09? (See attached images)

Forgive me if you already know this, I use a web page that is run by a gent who is an engineering enthusiast and it may be of use to you as its my 'go to' site, especially as they have digitised the encyclopaedic British 'The Engineer' and 'Engineering' who reported on all the engineering developments during the early 20th Century - Grace's Guide :  https://gracesguide.co.uk/Main_Page

Period spark plugs are interesting, I was surprised how involved the various manufacturer's histories were. The museum has a small collection including Edison-Splitdorf examples, which I'd never heard of until I joined the museum.

(A slight diversion if you wish, search for Holland Coachcraft Co., Ltd of Govan, Glasgow, they specialised in Art Deco van designs in the 1920's / 30s.)

Here is a partial list of the cars I'll be covering.  There are others but they are often just plans to produce cars, or at least in a couple of cases, only an experimental single unit was built and nothing ever actually went into production.  The names of the people involved seemed to move from one company to another at times.  It's been an interesting piece of work.  Sure wish I had an opportunity to revisit some of the places that now house more extensive archival material. When I lived in Scotland, the Werbell was only known by a few people.   It wasn't until the family involved donated their archival material that it became more widely known.  Still no survivors though. This list is in somewhat chronological sequence, but there is overlap in dates for many of them, and the actual date of first production is fuzzy.  There were a couple of other names that surfaced occasionally but no information was available to substantiate, and certainly no photos seemed to exist.  I think tere is enough here to fill the hour and a half time slot for a seminar.

Mo-Car

Salvesen (steam)

Dei-Donum

Tod

Arrol-Johnson

Innes

Neal (electric)

Sterling

Madelvic (electric)

Kingsburg

Pennington

Dennis

Albion

Mowhat

Ridley

Argyll

Murchie

Drummond

Dalhousie

Mayfair

Ailsa

Dallgliesh-Gullane

Werbell

Dalziel (also known as The D.L.)

Alex

Kennedy

All-British

Rob-Roy

WSC (Wholesale Supply Company)

Beardmore

Skeoch

Arrol-Aster

Hillman-Imp

Hi Terry,

That's a very comprehensive list, some obscure ones as you say, that's going to make for a very interesting presentation .

The only gap I can think of just now is 'Galloway', a Scottish 'subsiduary' of Arrol Johnston . I've attached what little I have here at home that may be of interest, there's more on the net. The last 4 images are of our museum's Galloway.