Please I.D. early Veteran Runabout

Can anyone I.D, this gorgeous veteran runabout. I can't make out the radiator script. I am sure someone will know.

I'll try as soon as the photo is posted. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think it may be a Hudson. Around 1910 or so. Dave!

1909 Pierce 48 3 passenger touring ??

Gentlemen; to me, it's too light to be a '10 Hudson. On the other hand could it be an early 6-54 Hudson? But look at the rear wheels, are they trying to tell us something about their strength? Could this be a chain drive brute? It certainly is a heavy car; no toy here. As for the Pierce, granted it's as big as a 48, but unless it's custom, would that be the correct cowl? We'll keep guessin; regards; oldiron

When I zoom on the hub cap it looks like this one? Karl

Looks like a '14 Cad

It's not a Hudson 6-54, thought that's what I thought at first as well. The bottom corners of the grille do not slant in like that on the Hudson. I'm pretty sure it's a Locomobile, 1909-10 vintage. Same front chassis features as the 1912 I featured in the March issue. The headlights make me believe it's from around 1909-1910.

But then, the front frame horns do not seem to bend as sharply as they do on the Loco.

Hey fellas; note the painted radiator. Not that, that by itself, has to mean anything. But again, some of these cars were put through change/modification even back then. Anyone consider ALCO or Chadwick? Look at the hubcap closely, and again, the rear wheel construction. Also, consider that it could be chain drive. Regards; oldiron

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1909 Pierce 48 3 passenger touring ?? </div></div>

I think you get the cigar. See Tom Lester's car attached.

I'm not convinced it's a '09 Pierce. Consider the 1909 Pierce I've attached. Radiator and fenders are convincing,

but axle shape and frame/spring arrangement are not when compared to our host's Runabout.

<img src=http://home.comcast.net/~larkinjs/1909pierce.jpg>

Yeah. I saw that car too.

Okay... How about Stevens-Duryea?

The 1910 thirty Cadillac has the Flat front fender tops and front/rear spoke, but has a 4? cylinder not 8 cyl. engine. I dont have a photo of that early hub cap. Karl

The car has a Connecticut plate that dates the car as 1909 or earlier, 1910 had a different shaped C. Looks like a 6 cylinder powered monster to me. Loco produced its first 6 in 1911, Pierce had a different front axle shape, Stearns would have a white trim ring around the radiator core. Who else produced a 6 in 1909? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Matheson and Simplex both had sixes.

As did Palmer & Singer.

And Thomas... Take a look at this, gang.

Compare the profile of this 1909 model that i photographed a couple of years ago (Bill Parfet's car). Note the step plate near the rear fender, the wheels, fenders, and the round metal plate at the back of the side valance panel. Also, the hub caps appear to be identical.

West; I agree with you on both Matheson and Palmer Singer having fours and sixes in the era of this picture, but not the Simplex. Simplex did not have a six until they came out with the Crane model 5 for 1915. On the other hand this was a great job you just pulled off with these pictures. Very nice pix indeed. Regards; oldiron

Well, a fantastic response to date but what a fantastic car. Imagine finding a 'barn fresh' runabout such as this. Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Special thanks to West for the attachment of the brilliant Thomas car!!!!!!!!! Just brilliant. Is there any consensus on what this runabout is? It's a shame that the LHS gas headlight obstructs the name on the radiator core. Has anyone got better eyes than me???

If you have a photo of the red 1909 Thomas Model K 6-70 that was once one of Bill Harrah's favorite cars, it has the smooth hood sides. To confirm the original photo is a Thomas we need a catalog or front view of the Harrah car to check hand crank, front crossmenber locations. The painted radiator still puzzles me, maybe we over restore cars because we like the looks of polished brass. The car name is not on the radiator core, those are the owners initials, an accessory that was seen on high end cars of this era.

Bob

You are right about Simplex. I don't know why I thought that.

I think that the car in the original photo has been repainted, and the radiator along with it. Attached is a red Thomas showing the front end.

Kean, do you mind if I use the photo in the next issue of Antique Automobile?

I notice there is a slight difference in the bend of the frame between Parfet's car and the original photo. Parfet's car also has a slightly different axle. The red car has the exact same axle and bend in the frame. However, the red car is a 1910 model, while Parfet's car is a 1909. Consequently, Parfet's car has the same fenders, while the 1910 model has the front lips (or whatever they're called).

The "speedster", as I think Bob suggested earlier, may be a mixture. What a barn find that would be, though, I agree.

Does anyone else think the driver looks a LOT like Jim Grundy?

Thanks for the front view West, that is not the Harrah Model K, the fenders have a front bill or visor. If you can find a photo of the Harrah car the fenders are the same as in the original photo. This has been fun! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if the Harrah collection still owns the Thomas to which you refer. All I can find is the Great Race car.

Whoah!!! MY BAD. Bill Parfet's car IS A SIX.

I had photos of his Lozier mixed in the same folder as the Thomas.

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if the Harrah collection still owns the Thomas to which you refer. All I can find is the Great Race car. </div></div>

It may be, he only had one 1909 K 6-70, the 1910 K 6-70 sold at one of the auctions. Harold Coker should be able to shed some light on the photo he has a few Thomas Flyers. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..........makes some fine tires too!

By all means - use the picture in the magazine. Let me know if a better scan would be helpful and I'll get it redone by a scanner which does a better job than mine. Imagine those letters on the radiator being the owners initials - if you knew how many hours and the extent to which I went to read it??? Thanks again to all who have dug into their files for information which, due to this forum, gets shared among the members. What did we do before the internet?? Keep opening those old barn doors!!!

Hey guys, it is definately a Thomas Flyer. Probably an 08-09. They are very much alike. There are several identifying features that make me know it is a Thomas. The front axle, the mounting bracket for the headlamps.( I have a few spares in my stockroom just like them). The hood with the brass handles that hold the leather holddown straps in place, the box in front of the rear fender is the box that covers the front drive sproket for the chains. It is a double chain drive brute and would I like to have it today? There is also a brass "Thomas Flyer script" on that box. Hey guys thanks for the good word about our Thomas,s and our tires as well. Harold COker

Kean, Thank you again for posting the photo, how did it find its way Downunder? Best wishes, Bob

Thomas at Amelia Island 2006, Karl

Other side of engine, Karl

A 1909-10 Thomas - WOW!. How did the picture get "Downunder"? Well I have always wanted an early veteran runabout (and still do) and constantly search for photos of bodies I'd like to build one day when I find the right basketcase or project. I found this photo on Ebay some years ago and just had to have it. I spent many hours trying to read the script on the radiator, then put the photo somewhere safe. It proved to be VERY safe because I lost it for years until recently. I immediately listed this post and can't believe the interest it has attracted. I am delighted to finally know its identity. Thanks again to all. If anyone has an interesting project car, please advise: keant@ozemail.com.au

I just noticed the location of spark plugs on the two engine photos. Bills car has 6 horizontaly plugs in the same side of the jug as the other 6 plugs. The red car has what looks like 6 over the intake and 6 over the exhaust valves. Anyone have the answer on the change? Which set is the Battery and or Mag plugs? Thanks, Karl

I was looking at the original post with the picture of the mysterious runabout...and I think its a 1908 Thomas Flyer.

The reason being is that there is no globe on the front of the radiator, I believe Thomas only used the globe as part of their logo for the beginning of the 1909 models and forward. Also it cannot be later because the oil tank is brass, I believe they were painted from 1910 forward. Also the painted radiator is a characteristic of the 1908 model.

I have attached a few pictures of Marshal Mathews 1908 Thomas flyer, (found via google) which looks very close to this car. I was hoping that I could see the other side to verify that the oil tank is brass. However, one main difference between Marshall's car and this one is that Marshall's car only has one hood strap. How significant of a difference is this?

My father and I were talking about this car tonight and we were puzzled by the seat covers, as they look very 'Mercedes'. Am I mistaken for thinking that Mercedes was the only ones using this type of seat covers this early?

At first glance the car appears to be mixed up with a Pierce Arrow front axle, Mercedes seats, rear wheels and step plate. Also the ring on the steering wheel looks familiar to the hardware used on Locomobiles to attach a splash guard over the steering column. However, the pictures attached seem to justify that it is in fact a Thomas.

Mike Longfield

a side view of the 1908 Thomas.

Now that we know it's a Thomas, the internet reveals some VERY interesting sites. Check this site out and click on the runabout images. One is attached. Paste this link into your browser.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?parent_id=455149&word=

I've seen the seat dust covers in many period photos. My guess is that they were installed during the week to keep the leather seats nice for the weekend. The twin hood straps were on the six cylinder Thomas, the fours had only one. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Karl, I wonder if that Thomas with the angled spark plugs just has them installed in enlarged & retapped primer petcock casting bosses?

Hi Kean,

This is an incredibly clear photo of a very rare car - a 1908 Thomas Flyer 6-70 runabout.  It was a factory roadster, and its architecture was along the same lines as the 1907 Thomas Speedway Flyer.  The engine was moved back in the frame, and the radiator was positioned behind the rear axle.  Adding a rake to the steering column moved the driver's seat all the way back to right over the chainbox.

According to a letter from someone who worked at the factory. the first one of these was taken outside of Buffalo for a test, and ran a timed mile at 88 mph.  Biggest engine in smallest body - maybe the first ever musclecar.

If you're still willing to do a higher-res scan, I'd love to have a copy.  I have the names of a few of the early purchasers, and maybe it would be possible to make something of that radiator script.

Here's a shot of E. R. in what may have been the first 6-70 runabout built.  It appeared in the Buffalo paper on Feb. 9, 1908.