SAFETY ISSUE FOR MANY GM V6 FRONT DRIVE VEHICLES!!!!!!!

SEE ATTACHMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CORROSION TO BODY MOUNTING BOLTS AND FRAME VIBRATION CUSHIONS, or UNIBODY SUB-FRAME CAN CAUSE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!!!!!!!!!

ALL V6 GM CARS/VANS HAVE SIMILAR BODY MOUNTING SYSTEMS, including, but not limited to:

Grand Prix, Grand Am, Monte Carlo, Lumina + APV, Silloette, Bonneville, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Riviera, REATTA + convertible, Olds 88+98, Achieva, ETC, Etc.

My daughter, (Notamekanik), was driving my 1988 Reatta, (Bambi-Killer), for a few weeks, while I was repairing her Pathgrinder. On her way home from her 1st teaching job, as a math/science intern, she noticed something strange in the steering. SECONDS LATER, While driving on a divided hyway, (US-12, between Sauk City & Madison, WI), at posted speed range, (55 mph), in left lane, she heard a loud percussion noise, then NO STEERING CAPABILITY! The steering wheel would "Spin like a top" ,from her description. She calmly slowed the car to a stop, while it naturally was bearing leftward. The car came to a stop just off the pavement, in the grass/gravel median strip. She immediately called me to describe the incident, and get advise. From her description alone, I surmised the DRIVETRAIN CARRIER had separated from the UNIBODY SUB-FRAME MEMBER. My 1st thought was the sub-frame had rusted-out. I thought our 1st Reatta, (Panikmekanik's favorite), was now junk. The local Police had it towed away from the major thouroughfare, to a local body shop lot, positioned so I could get it on a trailer later, for only $50.

Moments after her call, I recieved an expected guest at the farm, Reatta Drenalin, (Craig), from the west coast of British Columbia, Canada. We had a few minutes for formal introductions, (our 1st face to face meeting), when Craig offered to go with me to aid in retrieving Bambi-Killer, from 2-3 hours away. He said it would give US time to become better acquainted, I though he was a glutton for punishment, then realized he was a REAL FRIEND, much like myself. Real friend = an individual who will offer to help another, even a stranger, who is in need. "A FRIEND IN NEED, IS A FRIEND INDEED!"

So, we hooked-up my trailer, (barricaded by a recent rainfall swamp!), and "boon-docked" the 1986 4X4 K-truck + dual-axle trailer thru the swamp, from behind the barn, ate dinner, (courtesy of Panikmekanik), loaded her Pathgrinder onto it, and hit the road for a SEVEN-HOUR TOUR of beautiful Wisconsin Farm country - in the dark.

Upon arriving at Bambi-Killer's location, I discovered not only 1 or 2 mounting cushions/bolts had failed, but ALL 4 rearward body mounts had failed!! This left the rear of the drivetrain carrier hanging 1" from the pavement! The steering rack is mounted to the carrier, and had come loose from the steering column at the 2nd knuckle, and tore the dash seal tube to shreds, hence the "spinning" steering wheel. I was able to KICK the front tires to align the car with the ramps, and with Craig's help, (INVALUABLE), I was able to DRIVE, (not STEER!), Bambi-Killer onto the trailer, without incident.

....more later!!

SEE ATTACHMENT!!!!!!!!

....MORE PIX!!

LEFT SIDE VIEW

....MORE PIX!!

RIGHT SIDE VIEW

....MORE PIX!!

FRONT VIEW

....MORE PIX!!

UNDERHOOD VIEW, Notice the engine is "lowered"

....MORE PIX!!

underhood view, the bent intake air tube shows the severity of engine "lowering"

....MORE PIX!!

And, finally the photo of the separation of the steering rack from the 2nd knuckle, and the torn dash seal tube.

And, of course, the look on Notamekanik's face during the incident!

All kidding aside.

Praise the LORD!!!!!!

...for guiding my precious daughter, and Bambi-Killer, to a safe resting place, out of harm's way.

I generally drive down 2-lane country roads, at GREATER speeds, with NO median, where no amount of driving finesse could have saved me from a collision with an oak tree!

INSPECT YOUR GM V6 FRONT DRIVE VEHICLE NNNOOOWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF YOU, OR YOUR WRENCH, SEE ANY CORROSION AT THESE BODY MOUNTING POINTS,

FIX IT NOW, DO NOT RISK DRIVING THE VEHICLE!!!!!!

The very next day, Nanomekanik's BF, (who runs a local shop, with his Dad), found similar deterioration on a customer's Beautiful #2 condition Pearl white 1996 Grand Prix, with quad leather buckets! Clean car, no external evidence of corrosion.

He immediately informed the customer the car should NOT BE DRIVEN until fixed.

His shop's estimate for replacement was $1200. The owner is having a local GM dealer shop tow it in to asses possibility of recall-billed repairs.

When we hear word from the owner, I will post the result GM determined.

See attached photo of Nota & Nano Mekanik.

Yikes!. Glad everyone is OK. I just had mine replaced last fall. I had the local garage do it. I had the parts from an earlier "I might need these" purchase. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanx 4 the kind words, Vinnie!

I was about to call you for help, when Reatta Drenalin rolled-in from Canada!

He had just bought a 91 red/tan coupe from Loren Buick, in Flat-land, beautiful car. The next morning, (after hosting Craig for the night), we went out to fix his cruise, (broken vacuum tee at firewall), and went to breakfast at the "Red School house cafe. He was happy I fixed his cruise, before his 2500-miles trip back home. We had a great time together, even under the circumstances presented.

Where, and how much were the replacement parts you got for yours?

Randy, I'm so glad your daughter wasn't hurt. If theres something to be said about Hwy 12 to Sauk City and Madison, is that the new road probably saved your daughter. Having driven that stretch of road for the last 25 years, I really appreciate the safty of the new road.

You were so close to Delaney's Surplus Sales...across from Badger Ordinance. Fun place to go..you never know what you'll find <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Where is she teaching?~Tammy

The car I am driving right now had that exact same problem and the picture could have been from my car. I bought a very well taken care of Reatta from a lady in Michigan who was backing out of her friend's driveway when the rear of the cradle dropped down. They used a floor jack to get the car to the side of the street. I backed my car dolly up to the car and with out the benefit of steering still was able to drive the car onto my dolly. I brought it home, replaced all the cushions and have been driving it for about 2 years now.

The bottom line is beware of buying northern cars driven in salt conditions.

Cars are made of steel and rubber.

Steel rust and rubber rots.

I bought all 6 with bolts and spacers (NOS in the box) for 80.00. I didn't need them at the time. I figured I would some day. I tried to do it myself. No go. I did drill a hole as suggested at Lincolnshire (Tom I think). To gain access to the cage nuts on the two blind ones. Took my mechanic about two hours to get them all. He said it can be a real bear sometimes when thing break. I only have mapp gas. I couldn't heat things up enough to make a difference. The two fronts were fine, no rust.

im very glad your daughter is OK, and thanks for the heads up, as when i get back i will look.

Now if you lived in central Florida it would look like this (att.)

Fuzzy?

Hit the macro button but right after I took it got a battery warning. Just enough to download the one shot.

That's how <span style="font-style: italic">everything</span> looked to me the last time I was in FL. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank what ever deities you believe in.

She is one lucky person.

Those mounts are not something that one normally looks at

or expects a multiple failure.

Thanks for warning all of us.

I told you guys about this a year ago. I changed all of mine, as they were rusty.

Jon..

Randy,

Glad to hear your daughter managed to safely get stopped after this failure. I've written pretty extensively about the deterioration I found in these isolators over the past 5 or 6 years. Most recently commented to F-14 he was likely going to encounter problems with Sub-frame removal.

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post294065

and

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post149900

and

http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...=true#Post62879

Piece I originally posted on failure must go back over 5 years since it doesn't come in several search attempts.

When doing my original engine replacement I found wasted bolts with pictures posted here. Also had a rear suspension sub-frame isolator bolt fail, basically the same configuration.

I suspect salt belt cars are most prone to this deterioration. Salt would certainly accelerate the destruction but I think there's more to it then just that. What your photos don't show (obviously) is the core of the isolator. They're stamped/ pressed sheet metal sleeves vulcanized right into the isolator. Once the rust starts the rubber hardens and rots around it. As evidenced by your failure the bolts pulled right through the isolator.

Visually the head of the bolt will probably look fine, the large washer above it covering the Isolator core will obviously be very wasted/ corroded. That's what needs looking at initially. If it's ripe it can probably be assumed the isolator is ripe as well.

Problem probably originates with the sheet metal parts that have been partially embedded/ encapsulated in vulcanized rubber mouldings with no corrosion protection applied. A good primer would probably have made a huge difference, one that could handle the curing temperature!

Once salt/ moiture works its way into the assembly it just eats away in the gap between the bolt and the sleeve. (evidenced by the rot/ thinning on the shank of the bolts)

I saturated mine with rust inhibitor when I put it all back together with new isolators and galvanized/ plated bolts a few years ago.

Every northern car needs looking at now as a preventative measure.

Good stuff, Greg. You can really see what you are talking about in his first pic. The forward bolt has been separated from the insulator for some time. As the consistent rust color indicates. The rear bolt is the one that recently separated/gave out. The color of the bolt about halfway down shows it was not exposed to the elements for long. The forward(rear) bolts are usually the ones that go first. It is interesting to note this configuration is used by the General in many cars. I have 2 other cars from the same era that don't appear to have the same problem the Reatts'a do. There have been many threads that cover this topic. This is the first one that I can recall where catastrophic failure occured while driving.

VV,

You need to look closely again at the photos of the bolts. As I recall these bolts are about 7/16"/ 11mm approximately. Look at the size of the hex head compared to the apparent diameter of the shank of the bolt. What you're seeing that's much greater in diameter then the original bolt is the remains of the guts of the Isolator. The inner sleeve of the Isolator has completely bonded/ corroded onto the bolt shank. The failure I believe is the isolator rotting around the sleeve promoted by the corrosion process. The bolt and the remains of the sleeve just pulled right out through the isolator.

For those who have never had one of these disassembled, picture a rubber donut with a metalic center sleeve. The function is to isolate vibrations/ noise from being transmitted from the Sub-frame to the Unibody of the car. And it it works.

I'll repeat, I believe it's the lack of any corrosion protection on these metalic parts. The corrrosion starts and results in total and now catastrophic failure of the isolator.

How about a Class Action. The Fleet of 18000 at an average of $1500 for repair and dimimished value, nice tidy $27 Million plus punitives for Randys' Families' shock and horror as well evidenced in those remarkable photos!

Count me in! (I'm kidding, I'm kidding!

I am serious though, every vehicle that has spent any time in service in the Salt Belt needs to be looked at, carefully. It was only by luck Randys' Daughter had the opportunity to get the vehicle stopped without incident. Randys' description of the steering column failure will happen now every time.

Would be very interested in how the fellow with the '96 Gran Prix makes out with GM, this is definitely "latent defect" Could also result in the condemming of a whole generation of GM cars. And it's not like GM has the financial resources these days to assume responsibility for repairing all these vehicles.

And this question needs to be added now to the Standard Reatta Sales Questionaire, "when were all the Sub-frame Isolators replaced, front and back"

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the only way to tell the isolator condition is to remove it and then you might as well replace it. Anyone have the current part numbers ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How about a Class Action. The Fleet of 18000 at an average of $1500 for repair and dimimished value, nice tidy $27 Million plus punitives for Randys' Families' shock and horror as well evidenced in those remarkable photos!

Count me in! (I'm kidding, I'm kidding! </div></div>

While we're kidding, I'd be happy with "Black Beauty's" "Big sister" from the heritage collection, as a start!

All fun aside, (I'm sure there's a million jokes that could come of this!), I got a few good shots of the cushion, (FSM term, rubber part #1627359), and the remaining corrosion. It's evident the bolt slipped thru this cushion recently.

I also noticed, after the incident, the different petina of each of the bolts (part #11503690), and they had worn severely where the cushion's steel core had been rubbing.

So, that thump-thump rarely heard from the front of a GM V6 may be an isolator, rather than a strut, brake reaction rod, or an end link. We sometimes heard this sound over rough railroad tracks, thought it was an old strut bottoming out.

next photo - same cushion

another photo - same cushion

Randy,

That's one Ugly Isolator! To be honest I do not recall any noticeable change in noise transfer/ noise in general from replacing the Isolators. I'm thinking you still don't have sufficient metal on metal to yeild any sort of warning sound. Thumps from a good impack maybe different?

Inclined to agree with Padgett, only reliable means of verifying condition of these critters is to disassemble/ replace. Would be several years ago I think there was mention of an Aftermarket Source for these assemblies. Anyone got any data? Five/ six years ago I had no trouble getting them OEM from the Dealer. Also seems there's a color code based on e-body model, may be difference between say Rivs' and Reattae', something to do with position or resiliency?

Not just a GM problem. My Ford SHO had bad isolator bolt rust damage when changed out at 3 years old. I replaced the rubber with milled aluminum. Barely transmitted any more noise or vibration. Steering turn in became very fast with no rubber flex and slop.

I had all of them replaced on my 1989 Riviera including all the motor mounts about 4 years ago.

Just made me feel better.

Lightened my wallet a bit!

Charlie

That is pretty much what the one I took out looked like. Is that one of the forward rear mounts? I had no major clunk or road shock. Just a sloppy feel. Like a bad strut. New insulators and struts make the ride much better.

Another Reatta owner sent me this number ....1627359 the original Reatta part number has long been discontinued, and I suspect that 99% of the front wheel drive full size GM cars can use the same part number. The only reason they originally would have had different numbers would be for custom tuned rubber density to fit the car line.

There is another potential problem with the engine cradle in rust country. Owners have reported the cradle rusting through in the area of the passangers feet. It appears that snow pack/slush can accumulate in this area and rust away on the cradle. If you are inspecting for bad bolts, cradle insulators, you might also look for serious rust in the right rear corner.

WOW, I'm glad to hear that no one was hurt. I am a little confused. These bolts that rust out, are they the bolts that are in the rubber looking thing? (sorry for my lack of vocabulary)

Barney,

Serious corrosion in my experience happens where road silt, salt and moisture can collect. External rust is just that, a layer of oxide, the real insiduous damage happens from the inside.

Being 3 thousand or so miles away from home I can't remember where the bolted splices on the Sub-frame are. There has to be an opening in the frame box that's allowing salt, moisture and silt in but what comes immediately to mind is gravity. The passenger side is the low side of the road so it would follow that's where the nasties are going to collect, inside the Sub-frame? Makes sense to me anyway.

Yes, Craig! It was the driver's side, inner-rear carrier-body mount's isolator cushion!

The other 3 are still "in" thier original positions, (on the drivetrain carrier), yet quite ugly!

Once I can get "Bambi-Killer" up in the air, I'll have a better grip on whether she'll be "resurrected" once more. From what I have seen, down-under, it looks like the body sub-frame is intact, and that replacement of the isloator assemblies, and dash seal, should be all that's needed to "Git 'er dun".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> These bolts that rust out, are they the bolts that are in the rubber looking thing? </div></div>

To view the suspect "Bolts in the rubber thing" face the center of your left-front wheel, then look rearward of the wheel, at the bottom corner of the fender's wheel well. You will see the outer end of the drivetrain carrier, just under the trailing end of the front fender, this is the outer bolt/isolator. There are 2 on each side, at the rear of the carrier, and 2 in front adjacent to each end of the radiator, under plastic covers in the drivetrain carrier frame.

In reference to the pix I posted, the part hanging down under "Bambi-Killer" should be attached directly to the bottom of your car. Print a photo, or 2, then compare to your car, while inspecting it.

I SURE HOPE PHIL'S (F14CRAZY) WERE GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIS MI TO FL TRIP!!

I did send him a PM to warn of this issue, and suggested he take the Exploder, (Explorer), on his spring-break trip, this week.

OK 1627359 is bot the doughnut and the bolt. The total number you need - is it 8 to do both ends ?

6 total. You'll need bolts and spacers as well.