Utica plant

Does anyone know how many sq feet the Packard engine plant and parts storage at Utica was?

The total square footage was 1,186,436.

and what was the sq ft of East Grand and of Conner?

East Grand Boulevard was around 4,000,000, Conner was 759,749 square feet, if you counted supply rooms, closets--everything.

Here is an interesting piece from about 1962, when Curtiss-Wright was selling the joint.

I have often thought that had the George Mason envisioned American Motors of Packard-Hudson-Nash-Studebaker have come about, there would have been an automtive assembly plant built next to the V-8 engine plant to handle all of the company's "big car" assembly, ala GM's BOC of the 1980's (BOC= Big Overpriced Cars). Packard was ready to get out of EGB (old multi-story plant), like the rest of the industry.

Were all of the older car parts kept at the Utica facility and how far back in model year did Packard keep inventory?

Packard (in the 1950's) had a parts depot (warehouse-distribution center) on either Van Dyke or Mound roads--my memory is fuzzy on this at the moment. Marvin King and I went to a farm north of Utica about 15 years ago to pick up a load of Packard parts. One part had a paper tag from that facility. It was sort of on the way, we drove to that building, it still stood, and was a small manufacturing compay then. A good sized building, about 40,000 sq. ft.

Packard, before Nance stocked parts going back into the dark ages, and dealers could and would get you a part for your 1929 eight engine if you wanted. In the rush to modernize the company in the early 50's that was discontinued and the parts scrapped.

Egos - go hand in hand with the automotive industry. Too bad Nance couldn't have negotiated a union with ALL the independents. Wasn't there another ego guy with Nash taking over for Mason that didn't want to cede any power? I'm reading Langworth's Kaiser-Frazer book and I never knew that Frazer was cut out. And of course Iacocca/H. Ford among many, many others.

Kind of off subject but I think an all-independent company would have made it work.

MrPB, that must have been a very interesting trip to pick up a load of Packard parts. Wish you had some photos of that.

Was the parts distribution center you mentioned close to East Grand?

The Last Onslaught on Detroit is a very detailed and interesting read as expected from Langworth.

JT-it wasn't the first or last time hauling a load of parts. That warehouse was nowhere near East Grand Boulevard, it would have been closer to Utica, but not exactly next door.

The person who took over Nash/AMC after George Mason's death was George Romney, once a candidate for a top executive position at Packard. Romney left the presidency of AMC to successfully run for governor of the state of Michigan, an office he held for years. Romney was a very able auto executive, had much success at AMC in the late 50's and early 60's. Many people have said that there was a strong personality clash between Packard's Nance and Romney. Problem was, both men wanted the top job and neither was willing to answer to the other should a merger happen.

The Packard parts warehouse (1952-56) and V-8 engine & trans factory (1954-56; used as a jet engine factory 1952-54) was located at 50500 Mound Road in Utica. This is the same address that Visteon now uses for its factory, which produces door trim panels, headliners, package trays and bumper fascias.

BTW - Mr. Pushbutton has an excellent article on the Conner Avenue plant coming out in the Spring 2007 issue of The Packard Cormorant magazine; this should be out on the street one month from now.

Of Nance, Mason Romney, JL Hudson et-al.

By and large, these positions in bussines are high paid Gophers. To really understand what goes on behind the scenes one must look at the BIG MONEY boys in the share holder realm. That can be difficult to do at times.

Willard Marriot (of Marriot hotel fame) was a HUGE share holder of AMC, exact years uncertain but JWM died in and about 1988, or just a couple of years before C took over AMC.

Marriot and Romney (not sure about Mason) were of the same "cultural" convictions. There were also connexions with Meyers Snow plow, Wheel Horse, White Motors. Nance as well as previous big guns at Packard were of a different "conviction". So, it was not personality as much as it was "cultural conviction" that stood in the way of small company mergers.

"Show me a man, bussiness or country steeped in tradition and unwilling to change and i will show u a FAILURE in the makeing."

cnbed-there was another parts warehouse in either Warren or Sterling Heights (not sure if Sterling Heights exsisted as a city in the early 50's, that would have been BFE back then) that was on either Mound or Van Dyke roads. I have seen the address on parts tags and in books, but couldn't easily find that address last night when I looked. It was considerably south of the Utica complex, the address was nowhere near 50500 . I'll keep looking

I remember reading I believe in the "The Rise and Fall of Packard..." book that Mason was for a merger with Packard and/or Studebaker but by that time had ceded control of Nash to Romney, who, like Nance was all about control. BUT could they not see the writing on the wall? Their production numbers per company were dwarfed by the Ford/GM even before the big production wars of 1954. Oh well, it's all speculation now.

George Mason died suddenly and George Romney (whose son Mitt, ex-Mass gov. has announced his candidacy for President of the US in '08) was his natural successor. Mason had the vision to attempt the merger of the remaining independents to assure survival and growth. That idea pretty much died with him--the egos, pre-existing bad blood over what little bit of business the young AMC was doing with S-P. Romney at AMC did a better job of folding two companies into one than S-P, centralizing into one the administration, accounting, engineering and marketing departments.

Packard V8 makes a good point (and a deftly subtle one) about differences in culture that existed between the men, and their companies.

"Romney at AMC did a better job of folding two companies into one than S-P, centralizing into one the administration, accounting, engineering and marketing departments."

Yes - but Hudson basically disappeared into the new AMC. Hudson's Detroit factory and offices were shut down, and about all that remained of the old Hudsons during the 1955 model year were the instruments and the six-cylinder engines. Imagine if South Bend were shut down in late-1954, and all of the 1955 Studebakers were modified Packards... Just a thought.

'Tis true--cnbed, Hudson did disappear into the new company. AMC had the luxury of having cash in the bank (as opposed to S/P, who were living on credit by the time of the merger) and the time of day to stop and think about such decisions. The folks at EGB were so busy bailing out the boat they didn't have a moment to think about eliminating redundancies. Nash was obviously the stronger party in that merger. Packard should have held most of the cards in theirs. All four above listed independents lacked a good modern plant. We know that Conner was almost modern but woefully undersized for the job. They were all working out of pre-1920 vertical model plants, Studebaker being the very oldest.

If we eliminate GM,F and C from the picture then Studebaker,Nash and Hudson had a POOR dealer network in comparison to Packard. Despite Packards poor financial standing, Studebaker,Nash and Hudson really needed Packards dealer network. Studebaker, Nash and Hudson market was predominatly the concentrated midwestern states and Califorinia. Nash at one (pre mid 50's) time had assembly in (LeSegundo??) California. Studebaker, Nash and Hudson field service was nearly nonexistant in the south and scattered other states.

Even into the early 80's AMC sales were predominantly mid western and California.

SP entered into sales agreement with MB (mid to late 50's)and AMC with Renault (early 80's). Of course these sales agreements were short sided blunders and remain so to this day. Witness the last decade with C and Benz.

I'm guessing that had Studebaker, Nash, Hudson and Packard all got together in somekind of agreement they could have survived among at least two different divisions.

The auto industry requires a man with business savvy and at least SOME tech background. It is NOT and industry for bankers, politicians, preachers, refrigerator salesman or any other 'profession' that requires little more than winning a smileing contest or honorable mention in the book of: How Win People and Influence Friends.

Don't belive it???? Witness Old man Ford among others. HF-I is not exactly one of my favorite men of automobiles but i won't try to argue with his success either.

I think you mean ElSegundo, CA.

I think we would be talking about the big four 4 had a true politically savvy leader stepped forward back in 1951-52. Again, though the auto industry would not be what it is without the strong personalities - succeeding and sometimes failing. HF 1 was a truly unique man, very flawed. (I have "The Public Image of Henry Ford" lined up to read right after the KF book) There are a lot of great comments here regarding dealer networks and factory infrastructure I have never heard about.

Studebaker had an assembly plant in the Los Angeles area as well. It was closed after 1955.

As a Stude fan and someone who appreciates Packards (particular '55-'58), I can honestly say this is the first time ever I have seen that Stude's dealer network was inferior to Packard's. Stude supposedly lost a lot of good dealers in the '50's as sales fell and the dealers defected to other makes, but I have read that many smaller Packard dealers were handled through distributors in the larger cities, and that around 1950 the distributorship program went away at Packard. I have a friend who was a small-town Stude and Packard dealer, and they had given up their Packard franchise around 1950 (rec'd it in '41). I always wondered if this was due to the distributorship concept going away. They subsequently picked up Packard again after the merger and were chosen to handle M-B afterwards too (not all dealers were able to participate in this).

Purely conjecture on my part, but it seems to me that Studebaker, for the most part, catered to a small-town and rural clientele (remember that they built all sizes of trucks up through the 1964 model year). I always thought that the dualing of dealers after the 1954 merger probably helped Packard sales more than Studebaker, as if a town had a

Packard dealer, they most likely already had a Stude dealer...but often not the other way around. The two '56 Packard Caribbeans that I am most familiar with on a personal level, were both delivered by Studebaker dealers who only added Packard after the merger. Far from scientific though, I know.

Bill

Hope your crack about refrigerator salesman was not directed at George Mason. He was a very able executive and deserves better.

When Charlie Nash was looking for someone to take over the Nash company he asked his old friends in the industry like Walter Chrysler who they would suggest. The name Mason kept coming up. Nash said he was very impressed with the job he did, bringing Kelvinator back from the dead. Mason turned that company around from a bankrupt concern to a solid money maker and Nash said 2 things stood out; One, he didn't fire anybody. He kept the same team of executives who were there when he took over, and led them from failure to success. Two, he turned the company around during the worst depression the US had ever experienced.

He offered the top job at Nash to Mason. Mason refused. He had just got Kelvinator where he wanted it and was not interested in changing jobs. So Nash bought Kelvinator, to get Mason as much as anything.

Mason saw the writing on the wall for the independents before anybody else. If the others had listened to him in the late 40s when the independents were riding high, they would have been working from a position of strength and perhaps a merger of the leading independent would have resulted in a successful 4th major auto company. We will never know. Mason died, the plan to merge S-P with Hudson-Nash to form American Motors never took place.

Another thing. Ford put on a major push in the early 50s to regain their #1 sales position. They pulled out all the stops, and used sales tactics so raw that they led to major changes in the law as it affected car sales and financing, such as the Mulroney sticker. Chev responded in kind.

In this ding dong battle between Ford and Chev the big casualties were the independents. They could not compete against the crooked sales tactics, financing, low prices and advertising budgets of the majors.

Mason was the only one to see this coming. He may not have forseen every detail but he could see that the lush days of the postwar seller's market would not last forever and when the day of reckoning came the independent better be ready. Too bad he did not live to see his plan to fruition.

Oddly enough, I just ran across an ad of the Utica Plant's opening; it'll take a day or so to dig it up again from the "stacks". In the meantime, y'all will have to be happy with this...

TG

I'm sure the "refrigerator salesman" line was about Nance. He came to Packard from Hotpoint.

Bill

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oddly enough, I just ran across an ad of the Utica Plant's opening; it'll take a day or so to dig it up again from the "stacks". In the meantime, y'all will have to be happy with this...

TG

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To bad they never got a chance to build it, hind site is clearer than 20/20 now days. Thanks for posting that interesting photo.

Randy, the picture TG57Roadmaster posted is of a plastic model of the <span style="font-weight: bold">Conner</span> plant Packard leased from Chrysler, where the '55-'56 V-8 models were built. I have a high-res picture of this same model in my article on the Conner plant that will appear in the next issue of the Packard Cormorant, taken in the late 40's when Briggs converted the plant from making aircraft parts (the Conner plant was built in 1940 to produce aluminum aircraft wing and fuselage parts)to making Packard bodies.