ETHANOL GAS

Would be interested in opinions as to ethanol added to gasoline will do any damage to our old cars.

Thanks for all replies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be interested in opinions as to ethanol added to gasoline will do any damage to our old cars.

Thanks for all replies. </div></div>

I don't know why ethanol should be any particular problem--after all, the stuff is actually harmless to almost all metals and rubber compounds -- it's the same alcohol we humans consume as well.

Ethanol does have the advantage of actually burning cooler in an engine than does gasoline, which might also be a plus with older engines. The mileage won't be as great with ethanol as with 100% gasoline, but most don't see that as a serious problem, at least not yet.

Art

I run ethanol in all my cars new and old (30s and 40s) and have for many years and it doesn't seem to cause any problems at all.

I have not had a problem with rubber parts failing with ethanol, though I have heard of some having difficulty with that.

I definitely have severe vapor lock problems with ethanol in my older cars on hot days. I have a 27 Buick which cannot climb a hill with the engine over 190 F if there is ethanol in the tank. That ethanol fuel simply boils like crazy, making it impossible to pump and keep a rich enough mixture in the carb. I get similar results with my other pre-war cars.

Ethanol works OK on cool days, but we often drive in hot weather. With gasoline, my cars still suffer with occasional fuel starvation, but not nearly to the extent that they do with ethanol. I have learned to avoid ethanol like the plague in the summer -- and that is going to get harder and harder as we get more of this stuff into our fuel supplies.

Bill

Albuquerque.

Ethanol boils at 173 degrees F, a temperature at which about 95% of modern gasoline components have already boiled dry. (For instance pure octane boils at 126 degrees F.) Adding methanol actually raises the overall vapor pressure/boiling point of gasoiline.

Modern gas boils <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> lower than it used to. This spec change was allowed in the mid-1990's after fuel injection became the norm. Getting our old cars to run on this stuff is going to be an ongoing struggle from now until we can't get it any more.

Try re-routing fuel lines away from the engine and exhaust and, if still necessary, switching to an electric fuel pump (which further isolated the fuel from engine heat).

I've used this fuel (New York State) in my cars for years with no problem.

1931 Duesenberg

1947 Ferrari

Dave

One of my Ferrari's has mechanical FI which runs at very high PSI (130) The fuel line is nestled in the water line to pre heat the fuel before it goes to the high PSI pump. I've tried to figure out why they did this but really can't except maybe to help it vaporise better? Any ideas?

Best

No clue on that one. There were a number of dodgey home-built/experimental/aftermarket carburetors developed that heated the fuel mixture for better vaporization, but they're of dubious merit to say the least (not to mention often very dangerous!). The most infamous of these is the Pogue carburetor.

Actually now that I think of it the extreme pressure of that fuel pump probably required the input of fuel of an extreme consistency. Temperature related fluctuations in density and viscosity might have been problematic at high operating speeds. Running it throught the coolant would create almost perfect consistency regardless of air temperature. That <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> be it. If so I'd be willing to bet there are some stern warnings in the manuals about letting the car come up to temperature before attempting extreme high speeds or rapid acceleration (more than the usual).

Gasoline is not a simple substance. But I have read from several sources that the boiling point of gasoline mixed with 10% ethanol is significantly lower than with "ordinary" gasoline. This is odd, because the boiling point of pure ethanol is relatively high. Yet, when mixed into gasoline, the boiling point apparently goes down, and that fits with my experience with my older cars.

No doubt, gasoline is generally much more volatile now than it was in the 30's and 40's. Witness all the gimicks on our older cars to ensure that carburetors, fuel lines, and intake manifolds are all heated with exhaust heat -- just to help that gasoline vaporize. Combine these features with ethanol, and you need to figure out how to get the car to run literally on fumes! There is no liquid fuel to be had in the carburetor.

J446 has a great situation with that 170 psi fuel injection. My modern car has 80 psi fuel injection. Cars with high pressure fuel lines have little problem with ethanol, there is not going to be much boiling under that sort of pressure. But my older cars run at atmospheric pressure or even less if they have a vacuum fuel pump.

Meanwhile, the situation is probably going to get worse, I would welcome some sort of solution. Someone suggested adding kerosine to the fuel? I have not tried that. I did try 10% diesel, and mostly got a lot a blue smoke and tepid performance from the engine......

Bill

Albuquerque.

Dave/Bill

Interesting thoughts. (130 PSI). The car I'm speaking of is a 330 P 3/4 race car.

The manual actually recommended putting the car in second and towing it around the pits for five minutes before starting it to get the oil flowing!

My Duesenberg seems ok with 10% ethnol regular but I do have an electric pump which helps esp. to start her "hot".

Best

Jim

I am in NYC. We now have ethanol instead of mtbe. (probably 10%). I just lost my elec. fuel pump to a failure of a rubber bellows after about 3 months. The pump is an aftermarket low pressure (adjustable) bellows style (walbro) mfg in mexico. I am fairly certain that it was the alcohol that caused the internal rubber to perforate. This pump had specific warnings listed on the box and in the instructions about alcohol in the fuel, but did not specify any percentage. I have no way to not buy fuel with alcohol. The pump itself continued to work but would never build up pressure and it would overheat (after 30 minutes) and stop working until it cooled off.

The car is a 1971 MGB. I am installing a different style elec pump with seperate inline fuel regulator (made by holley). I can only hope these do not fail.

My other concern is some of my old equipment like a briggs and stratton engine on my snowblower, and a tecumseh engine on a generator (both rather old).

I'm in the same boat worried about what new fuel mixtures do to older cars. I know my Dodge doesn't perform like it did in the 60s. Adding lead substitute seems to help some. One of my 70s Lincolns had the hoses completely fall apart going to and from the fuel pump shortly after the last fuel mixture change. That may have been partly because the hoses were the wrong type for fuel but the new mixture accelerated the failure causing me to wonder what else might get accelerated toward failure. So far, no problem with the Dodge because I filled it before May 1 and haven't gotten gas in it since (and it gets less than 200 miles to a tank)! It seems all the "new" stuff is geared toward what is being made today with no consideration at all about anything on the road even if the road machine is just a 1981 Chevy Sprint or a 1986 Buick Century.

The ethanol gas has less energy per gallon than regular gas. For a proper running engine you should rejet your carbs in both the idle tubes as well as the main jets. I have run my Pierce Arrows and Cadillacs' on my chassis dyno both before and after ant there is a large gain with the new jets.