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mystery car photo?


daner

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Hello-My name is Duane and I work on the Gila National Forest, I work with the heritage/archaeology program and have been doing a little research on a "stage" station along the old wagon road between Silver City and the mining town of Mogollon, New Mexico. I found a poor quality photo of the automobile "stage" line, and when I went out in the field I came accross the remains of at least one of the cars and the ruins at the old stage station. I'm attaching a 1914 photo of one of the cars on the stage line near mogollon, Does anyone have a clue of the make/model or approx year? Thanks. Duane

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Duane, you have a tough number to ID, I thought it may have been something like a Pope-Toledo type but now I can see many differences, the front fender "Brows" are not like the Pope style. I know that William F. Cody used the early Popes in his travels out west. The cars had to have enormous engine power to pull the grades they encountered then. Attached is an image of Pohaska Camp, Cody's hotel in the mountains near Yellowstone Pk. Stude8

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Welcome to the Forun, and thanks for posting the photo! Please take some photos of whatever remains you found. That has to be a 40HP car from 1910-12, can't pick out any details that would point to one make or another, hood and radiator have an odd shape, but maybe that is the angle of the photo. I'll take a wild guess on something unusual a 40hp Staver. grin.gif

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Thanks West, I knew the photo was distorted but Dave could be right about the Limited although they were only officially made between 10-12. The fenders and hubs look like a Limited to me but due to the narrowness and lack of clarity I still am not sure.

Also, the "driver" must be a kid as I have photos of myself behind the wheel of the 1911 Limited I showed at AACA events and I look much bigger...despite being vertically challenged! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

oops! Was looking at the photo again and it still looks way too narrow for me. I did miss the guys head in the rocks so it is obviously an adult behind the wheel. I have now cleaned my glasses!

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I didn't think about the image process "Auto-Shrink To Fit" effect, the car does look disproportionally narrow for its height. That does muddy the water even more. Stude8

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Guest De Soto Frank

Having just gotten into "large-format photography" (view cameras; dark cloth over the head for focusing, and all that), I would suggest that the photo is not distorted much, if at all...

Any "oval" shape to the headlights I think is created by the camera being slightly to the left side of the car...perspective.

It has that "high, narrow" stance of a Limited, or similar behemoth.

Was the orignial photo "square" ? This looks like a photo from an early string-pull Kodak or other square-format camera, as opposed to a rectangular image, such as the 5x7...

Just my humble opinion...

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Attached is an image of Pohaska Camp, Cody's hotel in the mountains near Yellowstone Pk. Stude8 </div></div>

I stayed at Pahaska Tepee last summer when we took my Amphicar to Yellowstone lake. A great place to stay, that's for certain!

amphi_yellowstone_ramp.jpg

I have done a little work to the B/W from the original post photo to remove some distortion. Maybe it'll help, or maybe not. You can now see the driver leaning over a bit.

336755-Untitled-1%20copy.jpg

post-31565-143137877355_thumb.jpg

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Not a Limited based upon these feeble eyes, as I can not see a double running board! The hubcaps, lower radiator area, double light bar and front horns also are not Oldsmobile. Based on this picture looking clearer I do not think it is an Olds at all!

Bob, a Staver! Reaching aren't you? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> How about a Berkshire or maybe a Lion. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I really appriciate the input, I've been looking up 1912 Buicks and it certainly looks similar, but with the grainy "headache" photo it is hard to be certain. here is a little more insight to the project I'm working on, I hope it doesnt stray too far from the forum, but your help is appreciated: The historic photo is on what we call the "Million Dollar Highway", as it cost a fortune to carve a road out of rock on the 3000' ascent to Mogollon. You can still drive it today to the "ghost" town of mogollon. Before automobiles it took 2-3 days for freighter and horse drawn stages to travel the 80 miles between Silver City and Mogollon. The first auto stages started in 1912 and freight trucks started in 1913, but wagons were used for heavy equipment into the late 1930"s. The stage stop was known as Meaders stage stop disappears from maps in 1930, we do know that early auto stages stopped there, but we speculate that auto and road improvements rendered it obsolete. we've been looking for the stage station for several years, but figured the new highway destroyed the site. I stumbled accross the site last week while looking for other things, and was happy to find so much stuff there(from an archaeological viewpoint) anyways, it may be wishful thinking, but I'm hoping to link the auto remains at the old station to the auto stage line, I'll be doing background research over the next few weeks to see if it appears in old newspspers etc. That is where you guys have been so helpful, no matter how many phd's or master degrees archaeologist have, they will never have the knowledge you guys do of old autos, so like I said, you help is appreciated. You guys will probably ban me from the site for posting more vague mystery photos-but I'm attaching a few pics of what is left at the stage staion: thanks, duane

post-43427-143137877357_thumb.jpg

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POST MORE PHOTOS!!!!!!! Thanks for joining this Forum!! If I could, you would get an award for bring some life back to this dying site. Nothing is more exciting than finding a mystery car and turning up the history on it. The remains you found could be from any car that made it up that road, and may not be from the car in your first photo. The chassis does look old, but more photos of it are needed to ID what it is. grin.gif

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I realize it is a long shot that the car remains are the same as used by the stage line, but it is parked at the stage stop which was owned by the stage line and appears to be from the right time frame...and there werent too many autos in rural New Mexico pre WWI...

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Duane:

Surely this is one of the most interesting posts we have had in a long time. Since your first image was clearly a "Posed" photo (It took some time to shoot a frame in those glass plate days, unlike modern snap shots) are there any other images that show even a part of the vehicle? When on a photography trip they usually made several shoots of the same subject in progressive locations.

William H. Jackson did this sort of photography for the Colorado narrow gauge railroads and then Kinsey did the logging industry in the north west, is the name of the photographer who made the image known?

The half elyptical rear spring in your photos is a good clue to be followed up by the early car pro's, I'll have to locate my early photo books on that subject.

You might submit your photo to http://www.prewarcar.com/ that is largely European interests but there are knowledgeable early car proponents who follow that forum frequently. Stude8

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Guest De Soto Frank

Great Pics, Daner...

Okay Brass experts here's a great chance...

3/4 elliptic rear springs, RHD & Shift w/ external gate, beaded fenders with flat splash aprons...?

( I really don't know myself, this pile of remains sure looks pre-WW I to my novice eyes...) smile.gif

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Guest brockway

If you wan't to see great pictures of Mogollon visit this website:

http://www.ghosttowngallery.com/

In the main page there is an index of ghost towns, choose Mogollon, New Mexico. From the pictures you can see that there is an old fuel station (?) there and remains of several antique cars.

To see other interesting abandoned cars I recommend to look Osceola (Nevada), Vulture (Arizona), Bodie (California) and Goldfield (Nevada).

And take a look at the desert cars screensaver. It's very nice !!

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Thanx for the link, brockway. My 1906 Lozier double chain drive 7 passenger touring "lived" in one of the ghost towns featured on the link, Chloride, New Mexico, from 1906 to 1954 when Ben Moser "found" it. I've been told it was the first automobile in southwestern New Mexico. Apparently Ben saw it in LA Calif. in '54 on a movie theatre newsreel about a parade in Truth or Consequences, N.M. - yes, it WAS named for the show! He telephoned (long distance in'54, a VERY BIG DEAL back then) the Truth or Consequences police chief (a good move I'd say - what would you fellow forum readers have done 50+ years ago, pre-internet, to find a car you saw on a newsreel screen for a few seconds that was located hundreds of miles away, virtually in the middle of nowhere?) who directed him to the local Chrysler dealer who had put the car in the parade and was "caretaking" it for the (original) family owners (son of the original owner actually - the original owner had died 5 years previously in '49). I talked to the original owner's son (a very smart guy - he worked on the "Manhattan Project")about 10 years ago before he died and he remembered riding in the Lozier as a young child (about 9 or 10 years old I believe), in the mid '20s. According to him,it was used regularly for about 20 years and then "retired" to an outbuilding (still standing as of 10 years ago - I visited it and Chloride in '95). Ben bought the car (and apparently picked it up the EXACT day and time my folks were getting married - Sat. May 1, 1954! - coincidence or ???), restored it and then sold it to Bill Harrah in the late '50s. By the way, when I visited Chloride in '95, I had dinner with the original owner's 80 year old niece (her homemade chili) who lived there. She said she had to drive (her 4WD AMC Sportabout wagon) 60 miles (approx.) each way into Truth or Consequences in order to shop (even to buy milk or a paper) over an empty 2 lane paved road, which she did regularly a couple of times a week. When I said that must be some undertaking (at her age I thought but did not say), as it had taken me (less than 1/2 her age at that time) well over an hour (1 way) in my 5 liter Mustang conv't rental (and I was hurrying to get there before dark in order to take some photos while it was still light out), she said it "really isn't that bad at all. I can usually do the ROUND TRIP (120 miles) in a little UNDER 2 hours if I don't have A LOT of shopping to do!" Talk about the little old lady from.....Chloride New Mexico - I guess! Again, thanks for the link - it brought back some good memories. Herb

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Steve, Ask West is you can start a feature on "Antique Car Histories" I think a photo of Herbs Lozier and that story could be the start of a fine history lesson for AA readers, you know me, heep it limited to cars built before AACA was founded. We all know more than we need to know about purple Hemi Cudas etc. grin.gif

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Thanks for the kudos guys! And I don't mean the granola bars either! Actually I'm the son of that "premier Horseless Carriage guy" 'tho we do "share" the same "handle", along with our interest in Edwardian motorcars, among a number of shared collecting interests . Hey....isn't our hobby "THE GREATEST FAMILY ACTIVITY" around? (other than that activity that results in larger families???...LOL) The Lozier actually was owned by one of the "James brothers", but they were the James brothers of New Mexico, not the (Frank & Jesse) James brothers of Missouri who gained a "certain notoriety" in the post civil war west (let's just say the post civil war railroad robber barons looked askance at the Missouri James brother's "Robin Hood efforts" to "redistribute" the railroad's wealth - about the farthest thing from a lawman, other than some "kid" named "Billy", that I can imagine!). The James' of New Mexico owned a ranch, a silver (chloride - hence the name of their town) mine and a small "chain" (1 main and 3 "satellite" locations) of "general" mercantiles (stores to those under 70 who never watched "Little House on the Prarie") but were never lawmen to my knowledge - 'tho I'd love to be PROVEN WRONG about that (izzat a challenge or what, guys???). And hey, I LIKE purple (and even lime green) 'Cudas!!! (they're the Simplexes of their day!!!). But now if we're talkin' '73 Ford Mavericks...then I agree with you!!! And before you Maverick owners send me any nasty e-mails, let me just say that you have met the enemy and he is one of you...that's right, I own a '73 (or is it a '74???) Maverick...so, as a "member of the club", I have the right to poke fun at the Falcon's "cuzzin"! And BTW, my Maverick has about 5600 (that's less than six (6) thousand) original miles and IS for trade (preferred) or sale. And yes, it is a "plane jane" 4 door sedan. OK, enuff for now....though that's only 'bout half the Lozier's story...but, since I HATE to type....it'll have to be enuff for now! Herb

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I spent the weekend putting together some new info and thought I'd post an update on the "mystery car" and the stage stop it is located at-once again, I really appreciate the input, as it turns out my3buicks and layden B lead me in the right direction, after comparing it to 1912 photos on the internet, it certainly appears to be a 1912(ish) Buick. The frame, fenders and springs are consistant with the 1912 Buicks on the internet too, and I looked them over very closely. Old newspaper articles also support this theory, the leading auto stage line to Mogollon was ran by Marriott Stage Lines and Freight Co, and in 1912 they took order of several 1912 Buicks, in early 1914 on of the Buicks caught fire and was destroyed by a fire while coming down the steep grade from Mogollon, about ten miles away from the stage stop. The Marriott Co. claimed that it was not a total lost as they needed parts to keep the others running, and the motor, tranny etc. were reported to be salvageable. The stage line would have been a very likely place to store the burned Buick if it were to be used for parts. I also discovered that the auto remains are located on private property, about 20' from the Forest Service Boundary. I also dug up some other info on the stage stop, I located a few rock mounds on the hill behind the stage stop, according to one account there were four soldiers killed at this location by Geronimo on Dec 19th 1885. they may or may not be related. I attached a photo of the marriott Stage Co.s office in Silver City circa 1915, and I'll attach a few other photos..

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