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Trade Auburn Boattail Speedster for American Lafrance Speedster


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Bore on these is usually about 5.5". Dunno the stroke, offhand. Supposedly you can use some Lycoming aero-engine pistons, and there are supposed to be John Deere ones that also fit. </div></div>

That makes the stroke about 6 & 3/4 inches. Only problem with JD pistons is that damn pop pop pop it would make.

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Thanks for the compliment. A lot of the credit for the design rightfully goes to the owner. He gave us his guidelines, we worked out the details. The headlights and cowl/brake lights are early Cadillac. Only thing we could find that was to scale. I think the explosions will pretty much be eliminated with proper timing and carb adjustment. No one injured. I was leaning into the thing operating the throttle and choke by hand so I was the first one to know when she blew. We took about 12 leaves out of each spring, still seems to have adequate suspension. Empty it weighs 2768# on the front wheels and 3157# on the rear. Length is a bit over 18 ft. We're having a cloissone rad name badge fabricated as well as an appropriate rad ornament. We've decided to call this creation a RHINO as in RHINORACER. My original thought was RHINOCERACER but that seemed a bit much. The ornament will be a brass rhino.

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With chain drive, are these one wheel drive, live axle, open diff or what?

Live axle would explain lurid broadslides on dirt from old paintings and photos. Well, that and a mountain of torque.

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They're two-wheel-drive, with a heavy bronze transaxle and sprocket on each side. The rear axle is solid, and suspended by semi-elliptics with a shackle at each end (because you have to be able to tension the chains, so there's also a kind of swingarm/adjuster). The brake drums do double duty as drive sprockets.

BTW, there are brakes only on the rear wheels, but they have both inside shoes and outside bands, separately actuated (IIRC, the bands are the main foot-operated brake). Some of these trucks were retrofitted with factory aftermarket four-wheel-brake kits.

The lurid drifting was done by non-ALF racers mainly, I doubt the fireys would have been too keen on it!! Same sort of engineering on Mercedes Simplexes, though.

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  • 1 month later...

How Cool!!!! My father passed along his love for the really old trucks to me. I own a 1916 Ahrens Fox, 1921 Stutz, 1918 Mach Bulldog (sold). I have a weakness for the Alf as well. This is an awesome project!

I have seen the speedster that is for sale on significantcars. It is a beast! We were going to do some trading and my wife explained that I need not bring any more trucks home. She says thin the herd and finish the other projects first.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Silverghost

Hello Restorer32!!!

Would this Great "Beast" belong to Dick Pr.... of R~R Silverghost Fame??? When will you have it finished???

I am looking for a Cole,National,Stutz,Mercer,etc speedster...

I would also consider a fire engine speedster if I cannot find an origional Brass era speedster!!!

This looks like a Great Fun Project!!! If this is Dick's speedster...He has already told me all about it...BUT...This is the first time that I saw it!!!

Have you ever thought of installing a relief valve assembly in the side of the oil pan sump??? I have seen this done before on similar engines!!! Drill a series of several large holes in a row + make round valves with large springs and brass fire screens. In the event of a back-fire valves will open to releave high pressure!!! (Supercharged cars have similar valves on intake manifold)

This will save the pan + timing cover (and radiator too!!)

There is a judge in Maryland who has a similar LF Speedster...You can hear him comming a mile away!!!

This "Beast" is sure true to the old saying... "There is no replacment for displacment!!!"...

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Guest Silverghost

Hello Restorer32 Great to hear back from you!!!

Those Relief valves that I told you about have been around for many many years!!!! There was an origional OTTO Speedster that used to be shown at the New Hope PA show in the mid 70-80s that had these valves on both sides of the pan installed from the factory!!!

These old engines would back-fire with wrong timing settings + too lean a mixture!!!

Don't forget to put fire screens on the oulets + keep springs very light...just enough to keep normal ring cankcase blow-by contained!!! In Supercharged car engines it was not un-usual to blow supercharger +manifold off the engine during a back-fire!!!

relief valves put an end to this!!!

Say Hello to Dick for me!!! I guess he is now in Florida for the Winter Season!!!

I don't know if you remember talking to me or not??? I am the Guy that Dick had call you about the R~R Regent P I that was for sale!!!

I stayed away from it because of all the non-origional "Restoration Work" that he had done to it!!! Carb, horns, Cad. loovers,etc...

I also did not like the fact that the Conv. top was "Fixed" in place!!! He told me he wanted $68 K!!! Are his "Girlfiiends" still sitting in the car??? I hear he has passed on... I think I have seen this car for sale as late as this fall!!! $45K Did it ever sell??? I heard Platinumclassics.com might have it for sale or possibly they bought it!!!Check their website under comming soon!!! Would have been a nice car but I would want it All "Origional" and thought I would have to spend too much to put it right!!!

Dick+ Your Speedster is a really Great project!!! Fun to drive + great power + torque for pulling out tree stumps also!!!

There is a Rolls~Royce Phantom I Springfield on the web now that was converted into a wrecker/tow truck in the 30's !!! Sadly many of these Ghosts+Phantoms suffered the same fate because of their torque + Hp. Junkyard guys loved doing this!!! I have heard of several!!! Also some were converted into farm +trash + Hunting wagons!!!

I would like to see the finished speedster!!!! You have done a fine job!!!

I love it!!! What a Great Fun Project!!! How many Gallons/Mile does it get??? Will you be racing Dick in his Silver Ghost after you are finished??? Don't know...BUT...I think the La France has a SLIGHT edge in Cubic Inches... I saw a Seagrave (former Fire engine)Speedster with a V12 that might give you guys a good race...Also Jay Leno has a R~R V12 Merlin powered Phanton II ++++ his famous Blastoline Special with a Korean war Tank engine (Air Cooled) that would give you a good race also!!!

Brad Hunter

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Guest Silverghost

Restorer 32...

Just talked to my Dad and he says that he has seen several types of Oil pan relief valves over the years... Some Blower Bentleys had long rectangular aluminum plates over a series of long holes fastened on each end by bolts with springs under the bolt heads holding the plates against the pan holes. The plate has clearance holes that let the plate lift off the holes to relieve the pressure. I assume there is a rubber gasket glued to the plate for an oil seal. I have seen round disc type of plate valves where a hole is cut leaving a center web to tap threads for the bolts + springs.

I have seen Duesenberg "A" + "J" + Racecar engines with this valve. Bugatti also factory installed similar valves on some of his masterworks!!! (both supercharged+naturally aspirated engines)

I myself would make a thin sub-frame to hold a brass screen + give a good flat machined surface for the thicker aluminum valve plate to seal. This should have a thick gasket so it will seal tight to the cast aluminum pan. Believe it or not this brass screen will make good Flame arrestor to quench out any flame!!! Older + newer marine boat engines use these over the carbs to prevent a flame backfire + boat fire!!! I have one on my 454 chev. speedboat engine!!!... As an Engineer I think that you should have at least enough holes to equal 1/2 of the top piston surface area or better if possible!!! Use good grade bolts+ let valve plate lift off seat 3/8-1/2" with springs only strong enough to seal in oil + normal operating piston blow-by...

These relief valves must react very rapidly in the event of crankcase explosion!!! Very little oil will be blown out!!! As you have already found out...This can and often happens when you least expect it!!! These "Relief Valves" can save you alot of damage to pan,timing cover,Bock,crankcase,radiator,etc...

Interesting note: The Brittish Spitfire was so named because it's engine the Merlin was prone to really spit fire out when starting if the engine Timing + Mixture controls were not properly set!!!

My R~R Sprigfield early Phantom I has a screen assembly on it's carb that was both a crude air cleaner screen + Flame Arrestor!!!

I have seen it work containing a backfire several times...

I hope I have given You + Dick some ideas to ponder!!!???

Brad...

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Is this the same ALF Speedster? I drove it in PA after Hershey about 10 years ago on an outing near Oak Hall, PA. The owners name I think was "Hal"??

The most powerful thing I ever drove, it had infinite torque. It could pull steep grades at idle in high gear and you could almost count the cylinder power strokes. Stude8

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=1940&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

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Hi John,

Yes, thats off the list. I have all the history on the vehicle since new. My plans will start will mechanical tuning. It runs fine, drives fast with a sprocket upgrade at one point. Need to fine tune it. Next, will be to remove the rear seat (its a 4 passenger), move the tank closer to the seat and then lay the spare tire down. After that will be to lower it. Remove blocks and every other leaf from the front axle and then flip the leaf's on the rear. This will get me the drop I need. Next will fabricate all new fenders to get that speedster look! And, if I am brave, I will lower the radiator and shorten & lower the cowl. Most likely I will just make a new cowl. After that, I will brush paint and wet sand, semi-polish, wack it with some chains, let it sit outside for a while. This should give the distressed look I desire. Add some race numbers and I am good to go!

I may have to sell 'ol #20 to fund this project.

Now, you are the Amphicar Buyer, so why aren't you buyin! smile.gif

Tom

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Restorer32, I agree, a club or some sort of online community thing would be a great idea. There's already a forum for ALF fire-equipment buffs and the guy who runs that seems to be tolerant, but a lot of the membership might not be. Tom and I found out that the Yahoo ALF fire-equipment list is definitely *not* a friendly place for speedster owners.

I think maybe a Yahoo ALF speedster-only list might be a good idea? That should be easy to find and join. It would be good to have a permanent place for discussion - this thread has been great, but it's temporary and not easy to find with a general web search. There are definitely dozens, maybe hundreds of speedsters out there, and many owners must be online. The Yahoo lists allow for a fair-sized archive of photos, so we could show off our machines, put up technical graphics, etc. Maybe a home page to back it up and direct surfers to the list, too? I can set these kinds of things up if you think it would be worthwhile.

BTW, I have also laid my hands on a nice 1924 Type 12. So to speak - it hasn't actually shipped yet. Can't wait. smile.gif

Cheers,

Martyn G

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PS - Tom, are you going to fit dampers? A lot of people do, one of the UK speedster guys said online somewhere that it was more to prevent bad behaviour at high speed than actual shock damping. With the springs on a diet, the car will be more prone to axle misbevaviour I guess.

Thanks to all for the good stuff re pan vents. That'll come in handy.

Cheers,

Martyn

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PPS - this car won at the Ohio concours in 2003. Does anyone have any further information or pics? I would really like to obtain more pics if possible. It looks to have a few features I'd like to plagiarize! smile.gif

Also, does anyone know offhand the make & size of these tyres?

Cheers,

Martyn

post-33191-143137876798_thumb.jpg

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Chris, thanks, I know Hal, I'll ask him about it.

Al, thanks also. I figured they were probably 38s. I think the rears are 38's too though, or the car should slope noticeably to the front (mine has 40's on the rear at present and does slope). Any idea of the make of these diamond-tread tyres?

Tom, that looks like the yellow car currently for sale at Hyman.com, yeah? The builder has really gone for the Mercer look. Not bad, but I like cycle fenders best mesself.

Cheers,

MG

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This group of posts have been fun indeed to read and day dream about. Much can be said for the "speedster" creativity in some of us. I have the remains for 3 pre 1915 American-Lafrance projects. Sadly, my projects are the left overs from being parted out to keep fire apparatus running or restored. However, I do have all mechanics, controls, linkages etc. that may work good for speedsters or conversions. One of the trucks is a "4", one is a dripper "6" and the other is is a non dripper, factory replacement "6".

Regards, Al

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Tom,

I have been following the discussion about speedsters. I am a life long, dyed in the wool fire apparatus restorer. I love the old ALF rigs and have restored a lot of them. I grew up in this hobby with the un-offical historian of American LaFrance who hated speedsters and anyone associated with them. While I agree it is bad to cut up a good fire apparatus to create something that never was, I do like the the mechanics and looks of a well done speedster. I guess I have to say that because I now own the first speedster ever built by our friend in Colorado. We have to make sure people know what they are and the history behind them. To answer some points in the discussion, The bore and stroke of type 10, 12 and 75 motors is 5 1/2 x 6 inches. The type 38 is 4 1/2 x 6 inches. The problem with explosions in the crank case can be greatly reduced if you make sure the original brass oil strainer is installed in the oil filler. It acts as a flame shield when the carb back fires at the filler neck.

Ken Soderbeck

Hand in Hand Restoration

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for the useful information. It will be a while before I get to examine one of these machines in person and I'd been wondering how the backfires reach the oil pan. Don't the oil filler necks have a cover of some kind? Is this the only way the problem can occur? How frequent is it?

BTW, Tom has created a group on Yahoo for ALF speedster discussions - if you'd care to join, it's at:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLafranceSpeedsters/

If you join, it's easy to post whole albums of pictures, hint hint! smile.gif

Cheers,

Martyn Griffiths

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Martin,The oil filler has a spring loaded aluminum cap but it does not fit real tight. The screen not only strains the oil but is a very effective flame arrestor. On an older engine with worn rings, a lot on gasoline gets into the crankcase and makes a very explosive mixture. I have heard of several fire engine owners who were looking for new oilpans because of an explosion. Luckly, as far as I know, no one has been killed. yet.

Ken

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  • 1 year later...
Guest chopprjok

Tom,

I went to your site for the ALF speedsters, it said the site was open to all other vintage speedster owners also. What time period are you restricting this membership to? I have a 22 Dodge Brothers Speedster, but I am not sure that it qualifies.

Please let me know.

Jason

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