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fluid drive (mainly)


oldgeez

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I just found this group, and have been reading many of the fluid drive posts. I haven't found my particular problem listed, but if it is, I apologize.

I have a 1949 Chrysler New Yorker straight 8 with fluid drive. I've had the car since 1968 (first car) and it was my great uncle's car since new. It had 19,000 miles on it when I got it. (He was in his 60's when he bought it).

It's cold here in northern Virginia, and I'm trying to get up the ambition to work on my problem. When I let off of the accelerator to allow the transmission to shift, probably 60% of the time it grinds and then bangs into gear. Additionally, I have unscrewed the idle screw (not the mixture screw) on the carburetor to the point it is not touching the rest and cannot get the idle down to the specified point (425 - 450 I think, off the top of my head). Fluid Drive has the original fluid in it, and the gearbox has 10w ND oil, that I drained and refilled several years ago.

I will double check the timing to see if that will help with the idle speed, but it did start quickly the last time I started it, so I am guessing that the timing is "ok" or reasonably close, but am asking for any observations regarding the grinding as well as carburetor problem, because at this point, I am pretty well out of ideas.

thanks,

Herb Bradley

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I'm in Cross Junction, VA. About 16 miles NW of Winchester.

I hope someone can help also...I have been dealing with this problem off and on for years. (the problem stays...it's my "dealing" with it that has been off and on). I park the car and ignore it, then I get an idea or someone suggests something and I try it. I'd love to be able to drive the car semi-regularly.

Herb

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In regards to you high idling problem try installing a secondary return spring from the carb linkage over to the inner fender panel on the passenger side of the car. I've had to do this on several occasions when the original spring location would not return the linkage to the proper idle rpm. It's not original but works very well.

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I would say the high idle and the shifting problem are related. I am more familiar with the older fluid drive setup which is connected to an ordinary 3-speed transmission, unlike your "semi-automatic," but here's a thought: When you take your foot off the acclerator to allow up-shifting, if the car does not idle down like it should it will shift at too high an engine RPM. That could be the source of the clashing gears.

One thing to check: the earlier fluid drive models used a "dash pot" on the throttle linkage to ease the throttle back gradually and prevent engine stalling. I'd start by checking for this dash pot, which should be right next to the throttle stop. If it's stuck in an open position, it won't let the engine idle down, even if the idle screw is all the way out (like you describe it). You may need to adjust, lubricate or replace it. In my experience, the dash pot is a PIA. They were used on newer carbureted cars, too, and often caused idle problems for me. Sometimes, it's tempting to just take them off, but then the throttle can close too quickly and can cause stalling, backfire, etc.

When it's working correctly, you should be able to open the throttle by hand and let it snap back, and it should idle down over a period of a second or two. The suggestion for adding an additional "helper" spring is another way to overcome a sticky dash pot. But sometimes at the cost of a stiff gas pedal.

Hope this helps!

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There's one other thing you might want to try. I've already backed the throttle screw all the way off, and it's still running when it should stall from that.

I suspect your throttle linkage is out of adjustment. There are a couple of places on the throttle linkage there you can rotate the rods and effectively change the length of the linkage. Look at the rod that runs from the pivot on the firewall, and look at the rod that runs from the pivot on the cylinder head to the carburetor. You can take the ends loose and rotate the rod to change its length and, thus, adjust the idle speed.

Everyone is right that high idle will make the transmission grind and bang.

Suggestion number two: Drop the front of the driveshaft, remove the parking brake, and clean and adjust it. A dirty parking brake will chatter so badly that people have easily mistaken them for bad transmissions and rear ends. The parking brake looks just like a little set of brakes like you'd find on the wheel of the car, and they adjust the same way. The drum comes right off with a big nut, and the parking brake will make sense when you see it. It's easy, and it may very well cure your problem.

I once saw a man pay for a transmission rebuild when the only problem was a dirty parking brake. I was a witness in the court case because I fixed the problem.

JON

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is right that high idle will make the transmission grind and bang. </div></div>

Hey Jon! I think I'm the only one that mentioned that!

Regarding your excellent point about the throttle linkage: the fast idle problem would require a slight lengthening of the linkage, correct? So if the threads on the rods are fairly coarse, just a turn or two counterclockwise would do it? Or do I have it backward? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

BTW, what are your current vehicles? I've got a '47 D-24 sedan "project" sitting in a field and I sure wish it would warm up some so I could get it out of there. It turned over when the weather was warm, but it did not start (maybe just as well since it's been sitting for a year or more). It probably needs points. I fed it fresh gas from a can, and it fired a few times. I'd like to start it so I can drive it onto a trailer rather than going to the trouble of winching it on. What do you think?

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Guy:

I don't remember which way to turn the rod. I'd have to look at it. Also, the description of the direction would depend on which side of the car you're standing on.

I drive my 1950 DeSoto Custom club coupe about 10,000 miles a year. I made a round-trip to Santa Cruz, California last week-- about 700 miles. I've put something like 140,000 miles on it in the last 14 years. I've rebuild the engine three times, but two of those times were caused by incompetent machinists-- one who bored a cylinder too big and installed valve springs upside-down, and one who left wrist pins loose. My car is still a six-volt original. The only change I've made to the car is installing a '57 Dodge rear end which lowered the RPM 15%, but it's the same rear end, and the change did not alter the car historically. I drive about 65 MPH with the speedometer needle sitting on 55.

As for your car, I think driving onto a trailer would be all right, but just like the guy with the '55 Chrysler, dropping the oil pan should be a priority, and you seem to understand that already. They're good little cars. I had a '49 Dodge Coronet club coupe as a teenager all through the 1980s, and I loved it. I really like the fastback sedans from the '40s, and the dash boards in those D-24s are really pretty. Even he small Dodge and Plymouth sixes were really good engines, and you'll be able to drive that car anywhere reliably once you know you have the bugs worked out of it.

There are some things you'll need to know when you're ready for a brake job, and if you're ever interested in lowering the RPM with a different rear end, let me know.

JON

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Guy:

One more thing on your engine.

Because it's been sitting, the cooling system will probably need some help, and in one day, you can make sure it never overheats. Take the radiator out, take the water pump off, and check the condition of the water distribution tube that sits loosely in the engine block. The tube just pulls right out, and if you have to replace it, you can either get one from one of the old Chrysler parts houses or a forklift repair shop. If you go to the forklift place, don't tell them you have an old Dodge. Tell them you have an old Yale forklift with a Chrysler industrial model-30 engine.

The two lower freeze plugs on the driver's side of the engine pop out easily, and you can wash out the cooling system. It's not hard to put the new plugs back in either.

Clean the oil pan, clean the cooling system, rebuild the starter and generator, replace the fuel pump and fuel hose, and you'll eliminate 90% of the potential problems with that car.

JON

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Jon,

I sure appreciate your tips. My earlier "life experience" with the Dodge flathead was a '48 pickup that had been a mail carrier's vehicle and had some umpteen hundreds of thousands of miles on it. We did replace the original 6 with the larger 230. The running gear was tank-like (as was the ride). The only trouble I experienced with starting (original 6v of course) was at times it would balk when hot. A little patience letting it cool off and it always started.

I like your idea about dropping the pan, but "in the field" is not an ideal place to do this. It's soft ground and uneven, and I wouldn't even trust jack stands. My goal is to start it with minimal fixes and run it for a very short time. I'm fumble-fingered and tend to drop parts and when you don't have a floor under it, that means LOSE parts. For that reason, I'm trying to just "massage" what I really need to. The car ran about a year ago, which is not too bad as far as oil is concerned. What I am concerned about though is your caution about starting an engine the first time and having an sediment block off an oil passage and ruin something.

I'm thinking about replacing the oil filter and adding some light (10 weight) oil before starting it. Maybe this will provide adequate insurance.

It's snowing like heck out now, so it looks like the timetable will be set back (most of the snow was gone and I was hoping for a nice warm day to tinker around, but that's over now).

The old bias plys and rims are nice weight in the back of my truck, and Tires Plus is having a $30 sale on "economy radials" so I might get that done. The consensus is that P215 75R is the closest size for these 15" wheels. I just need something that rolls and holds air for now--a vast improvement.

Did you ever think of going the "oversized tire" route in the back to effectively lower the rear end ratio? Or is there not enough room. Of course, there would be cosmetic considerations, too, but it might look kind of cool!

I will definitely be adding your cooling system tips and other info to my ongoing information records. The system is dry right now, and I think I'm going to leave it at that for the initial startup and very short run.

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Your grinding problem is more than likely due to a worn blocker ring. This part acts as a "brake" to slow down the gears and allow the almost silent shift that the transmission ( M-6 )in your chrysler should provide. As a test try disengaging the clutch at the shifting point-just before the trans. shifts up-if you do not hear a grind it will be the blocker ring. The torque unit should be filled with A.T.F.( non ford ) and the trans. with 10W non detergent.

Have you checked thoroughly for a vacuum leak ? Manifold gaskets,carb. base,vacuum advance line or diaphragm, fuel line and flex line, etc. Have you rebuilt your carb? The introduction of outside air into the mixture often accounts for an uncontrollable idle and can damage valves by superheating them. If you are certain none of the above are at fault ( vacuum gauge can help ) make sure the linkage is not bent or restricted . Floor mats have a nasty habit of causing this.

If I may help you further please just email.

Evan Bennett gunfixer2003@yahoo.com

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Guest imported_BaronvonR

One other thing you may want to consider is the kickdown solenoid switch. There are a set of points in there and it needs to be VERY clean. If not it can cause the transmission to bang back into low gear or not downshift at all when stopped, or when you want to kickdown the transmission going up a hill.

You can access it through the plate on the transmission hump on the passenger side of the front.

BvR

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Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I now have several things to look at...the blocker ring concerns me and the test suggested will help, but if it is the blocker ring...how many of those are laying around? (and where?)

It's about 10 degrees today, but I can hardly wait to disconnect the throttle linkage to see if that will drop the rpm. I have always felt like it was rpm related and when I couldn't get the idle down via the idle screw and timing I was at a loss...never thinking about the linkage, but I gotta tell you (y'all?) that I believe that is the idle problem. Now, if it's the shift problem too, I'll have it made.

The parking brake angle is possible too, since I replaced the cable years ago, it may be adjusted improperly...it was hard to do on your back on a gravel driveway. But, things are better now (I wish I had a lift) so I should be able to adjust/clean it up. Probably will service it anyway.

thanks again to all.

Herb

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This had been a great discussion.

Two more things:

Baron: It looks like you're confusing a couple of the components with each other, and it would help you in your work and the people you talk with the have the names more precise so what you think and say will match what people are seeing in the manuals they might also be looking at. The kickdown switch and the governor switch are two different things. The governor switch is the cetrifugal switch down on the transmission gearbox that downshifts the trans automatically when coming to a stop. The kickdown switch is on the carburetor, and it downshifts the trans when the gas pedal is pushed all the way to the floor. (The kickdown switch can make the car irritating to drive because of accidental downshifts when climbing freeway onramps, and the switch can be replaced by a dash button that only works when pushed deliberately. There were accessory comapanies making kits to do that back when these cars were new, and I have one of the gearshift knobs with a button on the end for that.) The solenoid valve is what opens to relieve the hydraulic pressure and effect the downshift. Uniformity in the names can keep everyone on the same page.

Herb: Baron's right about cleaning the governor switch. Pull the floorboard inspection cover, and the governor switch is the soup-can-shaped component with only one wire on it. Unscrew it from the transmission. Remove the top with the four little screws, spray it out good with corburetor cleaner, lubricate the little weights with white grease, and put it back together. Not only can it solve problems, but it can make the car drive better by effecting the downshift at the right time.

There are two adjustments on the parking brake. There's a clamp on the outside of the housing the adjusts how far the cable goes into the parking brake setup, and there's an internal adjustment just like you'd find on the car's wheel brakes. Between the two, you'll find the spot where the brake is tight enough to hold the car on a hill and lose enough to completely release.

The parking brake cable can hang up right at the dash handle. It's a little bit of a pain, but you can take the cable loose, pull it out through the firewall into the engine comparment, and run some oil down into it. I just had to do this recently on my DeSoto which finally got to where it would not release at all.

Let us know what happens.

Guy: Let us know how you progress with your Dodge.

JON

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Guest DaveKop

This lengthy discussion has me anxious to get my 53 Powermaster out of winter storage. I am optimistic if I do all the troubleshooting suggested my problem with iffy downshifting at stop signs will be easily solved.

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Well...was able to work a little on my problem. Adjusted the throttle linkage and was able to get the idle down to the proper (475 rpm) level. But, had some snow and ice overnight so wasn't able to check it for shifting. But as all things go with me...another problem seems to have arrived. The circuit breaker/resistor is clicking. I understand this means there is a short somewhere, which of course, could be adding to my shifting problems.

All in all, rather then being discouraged, I feel like I am finally going to get some resolution to this problem...track/fix the short, clean/lube the governor points, clean/adjust the parking brake. All good things to do anyway.

thanks, again, for all the advice.

Herb

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