ethanol

what can i do to counter the effect of ethanol on my MPG? i went from 15 to 11 mpg in one month thanks to ethanol!

I have found a mileage difference between brands as well. Try a different brand and see if that helps.

Ethanol has a fundamentally lower fuel value than gasoline - fewer BTU/gallon liberated by combustion. Shop at a gas station that doesn't cut your gas with ethanol.

On older cars,there is also an issue of whether the fuel system components were designed for ethanol contact - faster corrosion is possible.

hmm.. well my understanding is that oregon is one of the last states requiring ethanol during the winter.. so is there anything i can do? (apart from driving to washington to fill up...)

The requirement is for oxygenates in the fuel for cold start emissions (interesting since it's not a very cold state) - using ethanol is a choice on how to do it. You could add higher fuel value additives, but although your mpg would rise, so would your $/mile.

hmm.. so- an octane booster? sorry- i dont know much about fuel and all that..

I don't know what Oregon's rules are, but in Minnesota "oxygenated" gasoline is required all year 'round now. The guv is even talking about legislation to require 20%, which nothing currently will run on, but supposedly new cars will in a few years. Guess we'll just have to all buy new cars.

BUT, some gas stations have a special pump, usually not advertised, with "clear" lead-free. It's sometimes labeled "racing gas" or some such nonsense. It's usually fairly high octane (over 92). It seems Mobil stations carry it more than others. Some independents do, too, but you never know about their quality.

It's supposed to be for off-road, snowmobiles, small engines OR collector cars. I never saw anybody get arrested for buying it. I put it in my boat, mower, and snow blower. Don't really have any cars that qualify, and with my luck I'd get caught.

It might be on sale somewhere near you! It's usually not that much more expensive than "ethanol enriched" blends, and depending on the price of ethanol, it is sometimes even cheaper.

Good luck.

Seems like the corrosion issues are from "moisture attraction". Other issues might be rubber fuel line items (and accelerator pump cups) swelling or otherwise deteriorating quicker?

I think the current max amount of ethanol in the fuel is about 15%, as most owner's manuals state their vehicles will tolerate. Didn't we used to call that "gasohol" in prior times?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

As I recall, when ethanol was first added to gas in ANY amount the resulting mixture was popularly referred to as "gasahol." The term "Oxygenated" is a relative newcomer I think, and I've rarely (if ever) seen it indicated on pumps.

octane rating and oxygenates are two different things, although some additives effect both. Yes, gas + ethanol used to be called gasohol and more people realized they were getting less "fuel" per gallon. Ethanol as an oxygen source replaced some MTBE (methyl tert-butyl ether) partly due to toxicity, partly due to pork barrel politics. Basically, gas is used by the pound but sold by the gallon, so "light" additives like ethanol decrease fuel value.

I didn't mean to imply by "marked on the pump" that ethanol affects octane rating, just that the reference to gasoline containing ethanol is not, in my experience, referred to as "oxygenated"--in case anyone is looking for that on the pump. If anything, the pump will say something like "enriched with 10% ethanol." Yeah, "enriched." Thanks for mentioning the fact that alcohol is lighter than gasoline, and that a gallon of "ethanol enriched" gasoline weighs proportionately less than a gallon of pure gasoline. Ethanol depleted is more like it.

So, has anybody in ethanol-land located one of those neat "pure lead-free" pumps in their neighborhood?

When I first started driving, 1979 gas had shot up in price to $1.59 and it was slowly climbing due largely to OPEC policy. Gasahol was introduced and the price was around 20 cent per gallon less than gas. A lot of people were scared to use it because they were hearing stories about it ruining your engine. True that switching to alcohol will make an engine run lean and ther-fore you had to retune the carb for a richer mixture. Any car with an oxygen sensor is equiped to adjust the air fuel mixture so that it does not run to rich or lean. When this was realised and everyone began to use gasahol the price of gas began to drop down to the same level, and eventually lower, everone switched back to using straight gas because you get better mileage. Its the old supply and demand thing in action. But the reason for them refering to this as oxygenated fuel instead of gasahol is that the consumer might have expected the price of gasahol to be cheaper. It was cheaper to produce 20 years ago why is this not true today? If anything the stations in New England area actually up there price during the winter months like as if they are giving us something special.

Has anybody with a low compression engine tried ethanol and diesel fuel mixture? My 1932 Buick gets better mileage with 15% diesel mixed in the gasoline.

Jan

As I see it, the latest ethanol band wagon everybody is jumping on is a "politically correct" choice. Everybody on both sides of the political fence is jumping on it. The claims are that it pollutes less, gets us off of foreign oil, and helps the farmers. However, while ethanol does give off less emissions than gasoline of some pollutants, it gives off more of others. So the claim that ethanol is clean burning is false. Second, I believe that the number of net btu's you get out of ethanol is still less than gasoline. In other words, ethanol uses more energy than gasoline and does not really help us get off of foreign oil. This is changing with newer technologies, however I believe it is still less as of today. So the bottom line is that this is all just a big production to help the farmer and ADM while making us feel good about saving gas and the environment. I don't mind the voluntary use of ethanol, but here in the socialist state of MN, ethanol is mandated and that is what get me cranked up about the whole thing. BTW, ethanol does degrade any rubber parts on your old carburators.

Packard guy, MSRA publishes a list of gas stations selling real gasoline. They have it on their website also.

Pardon my stupidity, but what is the actual address for the MSRA website that lists the real gasoline informaton?

That would be loflite's area of expertise. I just know a couple of stations in my area that carry it, both of them are Mobile. It's usually a higher octane than I would like for my boat and small engine use, but it still beats oxygenated, I think.

Go to www.msra.com , and follow the links to nonoxygenated fuel. BTW, MSRA is Minnesota Street Rod Assoc., not Michigan. Sorry.

Flextek is a bi-fuel converter (to cars that used gasoline to run) that will allow you to choose when filling up your vehicle. After having the Flextek converter installed, you will be able to decide between alcohol, gasoline or a mixture of both, reducing your expenses with fuel.

More info www.abcesso.com

There is a lot of contradictory information out there, especially when it comes to biofuels, as underresearched, politically oppressed fuel options. I have heard that ethanol has much fewer toxic emissions than gasoline, as well as fewer emissions in comparison to biodiesel and SVO. Could you tell me where you heard/read that ethanol does NOT lower the emissions of your vehicle?

Certain car companies, including volkeswagon, are offering flex-fuel vehicles that can run on any blend of ethanol or gasoline. Many other cars can run without modifications on up to 50% ethanol.

The US government publishes an excellent reference on many different alternate fuels, including ethanol. It is not free, and is available from the US government.

As to emissions: if the fuel ratio is held to the "perfect" mixture, ethanol will lower 2 of the 3 CURRENTLY MEASURED EMISSIONS by a scant few percent. However, the MAJOR byproducts of the burning of any alcohol (including ethanol) are aldehydes and acetylaldehydes (remember that nice-smelling frog in 7th grade biology that was pickled in formaldehyde?). We may slightly reduce one problem while introducing another.

As to fuel economy: do the math. Gasoline contains 117600 BTU/gallon. Ethanol contains 67000 BTU/gallon. ANY mixture of gasoline and ethanol will have LESS energy than gasoline. Use the equation 670 E + 1176 (100-E) = effective BTU; where E is the percentage of ethanol. Example: for a 15 percent ethanol mix the equation is [(670 x 15) + (1176 x 85)] = 110,010 BTU or a 6.5 percent decrease in the energy content of the mixture. This is sufficient to require recalibration of carburetors on carbureted engines.

As to reduction of dependance on foreign oil: The latest (that I have seen) government figures show an input of 129,000 BTU to produce ethanol of 100,000 BTU. In other words, give me a dollar and 29 cents; and I will give you back your dollar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Must be the new math, but I fail to understand how using MORE to make LESS reduces our dependance on foreign oil.

It is true that engines may be configured to optimize the increased octane of ethanol TO PRODUCE SOMEWHAT MORE HORSEPOWER than with gasoline by radically increasing both compression and timing; but at the expense of economy. Racers have known this for decades. However, when setting up a carbureted race engine to run on alcohol, we calibrate the carburetor to use 2.2 times the fuel as if the engine were using gasoline.

As to damaging effects on older cars: 15 percent ethanol is not particularly a problem. The older car owner should install a modern paper fuel filter at the carburetor (ethanol tends to "cleanse" gum and varnish from the fuel system); replace any neopreme fuel line with alcohol-resistant fuel line; and in the carburetor replace neopreme accelerator pumps with leather accelerator pumps and polynitrophyll (foam) floats with brass floats. Fuel pumps using diaphragms and carburetors using diaphragms will need the diaphragms replaced more often. If irratic idle and "surging" are experienced, the carburetor will need to be recalibrated. Often, this can be done by raising the fuel level(s) in the bowl(s) by about 1/16 inch above specification. The higher fuel lever in the fuel wells reduces the amount of negative pressure necessary to effect bleedover, thus enrichening the mixture. Try this "redneck" approach before paying a carburetor rebuilder to recalibrate the carburetor.

If possible, avoid the use of ethanol in older vehicles.

Jon.

Advance your timing a smidgen, the higher the % ethanol the more advance, as the ethanol can take more timing it burns cooler than straight gas. As stated in earlier response the drag racers added lots more fuel(ethanol) and ran more initial advance to make power. This will give you a little better mpg, more hp means less throttle opening, but not enough to make up for the lower btu.

Is timing perhaps a major part of the "tuning" that multi-fuel vehicles use to burn E85?

Quote So, has anybody in ethanol-land located one of those neat "pure lead-free" pumps in their neighborhood?

--------------------

Guy Strauss

Sure have, right in downtown Rochester, Mn. Located at 205 South 6th. It's a Sinclair station, and the owner is a swell guy who is trying to survive Sinclair selling out, by buying the station <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Congrats on making Rochester--and I saw that Sinclair station. I hope they let him keep the sign, but they usually yank them. I've heard it's pretty easy to stay open if you can buy out the station--getting gas is a cinch, every supplier wants you.

BTW, now you have to look around Howell, MI for one of those friendly "clear gas" pumps. Or did you decide to stay in Rochester? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So far my Mobil station is ethanol free! I checked. Shell also has a reputation in Michigan to be ethanol free. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Here, they don't have a choice. 10% ethanol is mandated, and it's likely to go higher--as high as 20% they say. That'll be interesting. But if you're ever in the state again, you can usually get non-oxygenated lead free, and you'll know it if you find it: the pump will be clearly marked, with lots of restrictions. It's reserved for motorcycles, off-road vehicles, small engines, and "classic" cars--whatever you call classic I guess. Just make sure your "classic" has a full-sized filler tube. And be prepared to get higher octane than you might like, as they go with at least a "mid-grade" one-size-fits-all octane. Usually not good for low-comression engines, but the carbon buildup is probably better than having a carb seal meltdown or constant fuel percolation in hot weather!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ....but the carbon buildup is probably better than having a carb seal meltdown or constant fuel percolation in hot weather! </div></div>

Guy we've been over this before:

This low boiling point (percolation) problem is due to the lower boiling point of the hydrocarbons allowed in gasoline since fuel injection became prevalant. Ethanol boils at 173 degrees F (78 degrees C), at which point most of today's pure gasoline is nearly boiled dry, therefore it actually helps percolation and vapor lock.

It's also harmless to good condition carb seals and fuel lines at concentrations below 15%. It's <span style="font-style: italic">methanol</span> that kills rubber and gaskets.

For an excellent breakdown of the chemical constituents of gasoline, see Section 4.13 of Automotive Gasoline. The percentages of the constituents may be a little off, as gasoline has become considerably more volitile since 1995 when this was written.

See also Ethanol Mythbusters.

Thanks for the info, Dave, but the higher-content ethanol fuels are, in my personal experience in Minnesota temperature extremes (minus 50 F to +100F,) a very real problem, especially when temps are on the "plus" side of the range. It percolates easier. It just does. As for ethanol's effect on RUBBER parts--the natural rubber or older synthetics used in OLD carbs and fuel systems--it's been pretty well established that it can cause the "meltdown" I mentioned--maybe a sensationalized description but if a little hyperbole isn't allowed on these forums, just where can I use it?

The other important side-effect of ethanol additives in gasoline (sometimes referred to as "oxygenation") is that this extra "oxygen" can and will exacerbate rusting in OLD fuel tanks and also will "clean" the existing rust and crud out of OLD fuel tanks--said crud finding its way to fuel lines, fuel filters, fuel pumps, carbs, etc.

You've got a lot of good ideas, Dave, and apparently look far and wide for a lot of sources, but sometimes I really need to go by my experience and hard lessons learned... and share these honestly with others. Those sources of yours will NOT clean my carb or replace my gaskets and o-rings for me--or come and help start my carbureted car when it's 100 degrees in the shade.

There is a good reason that non-oxygenated gasoline is offered for use in, among other things, "classic" cars.

That's all I got to say on that. Thanks for reading.

Dave - with all due respect, that "mythbusters" website is a good example of a "spindoctor".

Their comment about ethanol running cooling in race engines. Of course it does, as the race engine is calibrated to use about twice the ethanol than gasoline. The heat of vaporization (necessary to convert a liquid to gaseous state) causes much more of a cooling effect than the oxygen contained in the ethanol. Running ethanol on the street using stock gasoline calibrations in the carburetor will cause the engine to run hotter. Re-calibrate for the ethanol useage, and this issue will disappear.

The comment about smog emission that ethanol burns cleaner. Well - maybe. Tests have proved that in an engine calibrated for ethanol, smog emission is slightly reduced on those pollutants currently being controlled. The same tests also show that if the mixture is not perfect, the use of ethanol will increase NOX. But the major pollution from the burning of alcohol is aldehydes and acetylaldehydes. Since the burning of gasoline does not create this pollutant, it is not currently controlled.

As to the cost of producing ethanol, the figures seem to vary depending on who is doing the figuring. At least this website has enough integrity not to bring up Brazil, where the ethanol is made from sugar plants (supposedly a much more efficient process than from corn - when are all the U.S. farmers going to start growing sugar beets???).

As to the use of ethanol in older cars, 3 out of 4 troubleshooting telephone calls we receive ultimately end up as a result of ethanol useage. Yes, there is generally a way to make it work; but it always ends up costing the consumer. I guess that cost is just a cost that must be borne by us all to eventually prove this garbage should not be used for fuel! MOO

I guess I really shouldn't complain about ethanol. After all, ethanol alone doubles our business (carburetor business) annually!!! It is really the best reason I can think of for the justification of computer controlled electronic ignition fuel injected engines! With sensors to determine the mix of ethanol, the timing may be controlled to take advantage of the higher octane, and thus minimize (but not eliminate) the lack of BTU's in the fuel. At the same time the mixture may be adjusted to get back the power by adding more fuel.

Jon.

Here's something to ponder from Harper's Index:

*Ratio of the amount of energy used in producing corn ethanol to the amount yielded when it is burned in gasoline [blends]: <span style="font-weight: bold">1:1</span>

*Ratio of the amount of energy used in producing galosine itself to the amount yelded when it is burned: <span style="font-weight: bold">6:5</span>