Online '90 FSM

I'm sorry to say that we're being held up, at this moment, by the legal Department at GM. Mary Palus has not bothered to return my emails as yet. I have tried twice over the last 2wks. Now, I don't know if she's on vacation, fired, just hasn't checked them, if I was given the wrong person in the chain of command, or she just doesn't care to return a reply.

My attitude at this point is quite simple. I will be forwarding a certified letter to her, reiterating our concerns and desire to support ourselves by the posting of FSM's for registered owners, I will be calling tomorrow (Friday) to find out her supervisor's name and info, and I will be cc'ing, via Certified mail, a copy of the document that I am forwarding to her, with a notation regarding the fact that I have previously submitted two electronic requests (same form sent twice) to Ms. Palus' email address. I will also be registering a formal complaint with Joanne Danzer, at (crc@buick.com), Customer Relations Manager of the Buick Customer Assistance Center in regards to the handling of this request, and contacting some others I know at GM.

I hate to go this route to get results, but this is indeed rediculous! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Furthermore, I may soon be calling on all of you for the petitioning of GM for the right to post into our support forum, the FSM's of the '88-'91 Reattas and all recall and other servicing info associated therewith.

This is why my motto is [color:"purple"] <span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-style: italic">It is better to ask forgiveness than permission!</span> </span>

Or [color:"purple"] <span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-style: italic">Just do it!</span> </span>

There is an old military saying (no, not that one): UNODIR.

My suggestion would be to send one more e-mail citing the record of the previous ones and that none have been returned and that having made numerous attempts to request permission Unless Otherwise Directed within ten days you will assume permisssion to post the information on a private web site for collectors only and no charge will be made for its use.

Tom: best password protect the directory with a password of mixed alphanumerics, mixed case, not found in a dictionary and at least ten characters long (like 90ReattaFSM)

So a random guess would give you one chance in 839,299,365,868,340,100 would that be about right?

Please excuse my stupidity. I have only had my car for about 3 months and as a result don't know all the lingo here. So, what exactly are the "FSMs", and what are these problems associated with them?

thanks

FSM = Factory Service Manual (or Shop Manual)

We are in the process of scanning the service manuals, parts manual, and various Reatta ephemera and posting it on the web so members of this group can have online access to this information. GM has intellectual property rights on this material, and we are seeking to get permission to post it on the web.

P.S. Don't feel stupid, I've been wondering about Padgett's "Notary Sojack" disclaimer for almost 2 years now. Just found out 'cause someone else finally asked. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hello, What's the status on this? My mechanic wants me to find a service manual because he can't believe there is not a recirculation mode on the A/C. From previous posts, some had said the A/C on high was the recirc. not true on my car.

Anyone aware of some manuals for sale?

Thanks,

Dolores

Helm, Inc. always has Service Manuals for sale, check the site to see if the 1990 model year is in stock.

On my 88, the a/c switches to recirculate when the temperature is set to MAX COOL or MAX WARM. Is no separate setting but can select through the BCM diagnostics.

The 90 Bonne (also with ATC) has a graphic display which shows it going to receirc then & noise level increase noticably when the duct opens. Also feels as if the air is coming out of the vents faster.

If you want it to be on recirc always (not a bad idea in a hot climat but not certain if there are any safty issues), it should just be a matter of moving one vaccuum hose.

I believe I may be of service to the FSM project.

I work at a digital print shop in my town. We have a high-speed double-sided scanner. It's a Kodak Digital Science 3520 , <--- Check it out. I could have that book scanned at 300 dpi and converted to an Adobe PDF in a matter of maybe two hours or less. It scans double-sided at 80 pages per minute and can output to a wide range of file formats (pdf, tif, jpg...) Of course, the PDF would be the best and most versatile. There would be a cost involved, but I get 50% off as an employee. Drop me a line if you're interested. poncho@chartermi.net

Just updating you all on what's been going on with this...

Below is basically what I just sent to Tom Jenkins... Sorry I don't have better news, guys.

As for the suggestion of just posting it anyway and seeing how GM reacts, I'd rather we put all efforts of resolution out there before we attempt to do that. That way, worse case scenario, we can at least say that we tried to contact them for permission, but figured that it wasn't really objected to since they apparently didn't think it an important enough issue to respond to in the first place. Paper trail is everything here...

-----<Quote>

I have been advised by several people I know in the administrative tier of GM here in Baltimore NOT to try going over Ms. Palus' head in this matter. Apparently, GM is going through a lot of legal issues, at the moment, and we've been put on the back burner for a bit.

I called and left a message for Ms. Palus to get in touch with me, today (she was at lunch when I called). Will be calling back later today or early tomorrow to follow up. Will probably just have to play the waiting game for a bit, unfortunately. I'll keep you posted.

Highest Regards Always,

Derrick L. Mc Crea

-----<UnQuote>

Poncho, when we move forward, (depending on costs, of course), we'll probably want to take you up on that offer. The '90 manual (as currently prepared) was done by FlyByNight. Though I tried to help, my input was nil, as my time was far too limited to get it done reasonably fast. He had the whole thing done before I finished the Electrical Diag Chapter. It still took a few weeks and that kind of effort cannot be <span style="font-weight: bold">expected</span> of anyone!!!!! Truly, just for the time and effort he donated, he deserves an award or something; all of our thanks, at the very least! Remember, that single FSM is almost 2000pages!

I'll put the $$$ out of my own pocket before I ask another to put THAT kind of effort in again. We'll keep in touch.

Didn't say "just post it", rather give them a reasonable time to reply and assume consent if nothing happens. Ask a lawyer if concerned but you are only expected to ask a reasonable number of times particularly since is for a forum and is not for profit.

This issue was debated on another car list I belong to, and the bottom line was, since it wasn't 'for profit', and distributed free, there wasn't a problem.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but that makes sense.

Hello again, I checked with Helms and the manual is out of stock, I guess my only bet now is ebay. Is it possible to purchase the pdf file for A/C from the person who has it? My email is dolores1961@cs.com. Appreciate your help.

Have you tried a Buick dealer? I bought new 1989 Service and Owner's Manuals from a dealer last month. $70 for FSM, $20 for OM.

Delores, read your private messages on this forum. My hotmail account doesn't seem to like your email address.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Copy of email sent to Tom...

Hey Tom,

Contact

Steve Blackmer

ASAP.

He works with the (REAL) Legal team at GM and basically said the same thing I was told by Public Relations... "The posting of the FSM is a non-issue legally. It is a public document". Basically, GM's legal department has better things to worry about.

I've requested that he asks Maynard Tim (I believe that was the name he gave) of GM's Legal Department to forward to you, in writing, authorization to post the FSM via mail or electronically.

Whoopie!!!!!!

Highest Regards Always,

Derrick L. Mc Crea

-----Now, we all need to get down on one knee and kiss Steve's feet!!!! LOL.

I'll start... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hey guys, Delores, Padgett, Harry et al...

Delores, was having probs with your email also... I hope you read this before you spent any $$$. Many of the FSM's out there are missing parts. We'll have the complete '90 up soon, hopefully, and the rest up in the not too distant future, so hold out a bit, okay.

Padgett, it wasn't you who stated that we should just post it then see what happens, it was someone else. But yes, you were right... We just needed to conform to what is a "reasonable time" in the term of the law. Unfortunately, that would be 30-90 days, dependant upon the specific issue. In this case, I think it's 30days. All of that, however, seems to be a mute point now, though.

Harry, you're right... but mistakes can be costly and we're all too poor. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Regarding the scanning of the manual:

Two things are key about this project on my end of it, if you decide to go through with this.

1. Of course, cost is an issue. I will speak to my supervisor after memorial day to get a quote written up for the scanning. Whatever the quote ends up being, I will take off 50% with my employee discount. That will considerably lower the cost for you, Consultants 1. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2. If the manual is a hard cover book, the original that I will be working from will need to have the binding cut off permanently. The neatness of the original book will be destroyed. I can, however, three-hole drill the original pages and put them in a three-ring binder, <span style="font-weight: bold">OR</span> GBC-bind them back together. So, bear in mind, the value of the physical book will be compromised, but for a worthy cause.

Like I said before, the best format to use would be Adobe PDF. The scanning program I use will output all of the scanned images as one mulit-page PDF file, which I estimate will be no more than 50 MB, probably much less. I will scan at 300 dpi, which is more than sufficient for our purposes.

Please let me know if this sounds alright. poncho@chartermi.net

The 90 manual I scanned at 150 dpi came out to be 63 meg ( 1965 pages ) 150 dpi seems adequate for printing. The P&I is 44 meg ( 1566 pages ) again at 150 dpi. Both of these were looseleaf in binders. You may want to up your estimated completed file size a bit, and lower your dpi. The P&I would have been a larger file but I cut the scan down from 8.5 x 11.69 to 8.5 x 11, saving a little bit on each page times 1566. In the P&I there were a lot of "Notes" blank pages. Unfortunately they numbered them so I scanned them anyway if for no other reason than to produce an accurate reproduction of the original.

P&I should cover all years

FSM is different for each though there is considerable commonality between 88-89 and 90-91. For that matter the biggest difference 88-90 is the CRT & Instrument display and 90-91 is ABS and E-transmission.

This just leaves the Technical Service Bulletins - four binders full (about 3 inches each). Now those that have applicability to the Reatta is just a small portion of each but sometimes it is not obvious what one covers (the heading may say 3300 engine but may also apply to the 3800).

I have all four and can make them available to the project but am not home very often.

---------------------

Re: future - I find that 150 DPI B&W works well and everything seems legible. Would strongly suggest separating by section and making an HTML index rather than one big file since the scans are pictures and not text - you cannot do a text search for the piece you want so either separate files or bookmarks are needed.

Well, I just finished a 12,206 page scanning job for a client on Thursday. The final PDF came to about 450 MB @ 200 dpi. So, doing the math, a 2000 page document should be around 74 MB @ 200 dpi. Also, 200 dpi is the lowest resolution my scanner uses.

Once I finished the FSM, I went through and broke everything down into chunks of about a neg each, when I did this I lost all the bookmarks in the original file. As soon as Tom turns it loose you'll see what I mean. I built lots of bookmarks into the whole manual files. Online is good for some purposes but having it on a cd is the ideal situation. What I have been doing is having people send me a blank cd, their return address and return postage. This way I can not be percieved as making any money on it but the information goes out to the people that need it. The P&I covers 1986 - 1993, aka all Reattas.

The heck with GM. JUST DO IT!

GM refused to keep the sheet metal for the 10 years

that they are required to, they refuse to correct

the brake problems. What are they going to do?

They have all but said the Reatta is dead to them.

I spit on them.

As EDBSBO can testify, there's not a lot of info available up here in

Canada and I'd love to get a complete manual and copiesof the TSB's.

If someone is willing to put in all the effort to get them all on CD's,

count me in for financial support for the copying and production f CD's.

This is not an offer to buy, but an offer to help cover the cost. The

strife & I will be in Flint and could deliver the $$ there. Or, if needed

before that, just let me know. I've been sending money orders to Barney

for all kindsa' stuff and could pass the $$$ that way. I'll even convert

my Canadian pesos to good ole U.S. of A. greenbacks. OTH , I did find a mechanic way out in the sticks who knows all about the Teves brake system and is currently doing complete flush and test. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

1990 Black Covertible, Slate Grey interior, both options and 60 K

I have clean 89 and 91 service manuals that I would be willing to sacrifice the bindings on for the online project... Let me know.

So, what's the status of this project now?

As a supporter of this, I've talked to one of the medium-sized cheeses at the GM Legal Staff department. He indicates that although the FSM and TSB's are (purportedly) *not* in the public domain, we should author up a letter to General Motors corporation requesting permission to post.

I've done up a preview letter, and sent it out to a few folks for comment. Among them are at least one affiliated with the legal system.

After all the 'i's are dotted and 't's crossed, we'll kick it up the chain to them and see what happens.

Keep in mind - there are many many issues to deal with, not the least of which may be some sort of 'culpable liability' for those posting/hosting the information. And, there are other issues as well (written agreements, potential claims against both parties, secure/passworded sections etc etc).

Please be patient - good things come to those who wait <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

--Tom

Sounds like the chances could be good! I can scan, if needed.

I was talking to my Dad about this yesterday, who's a salesman at a GM dealership. He said that because the car is out of production, our chances are good, but to still run it by GM before attempting to infringe on copyright laws.

Another afected party in this matter is Helm, Inc. If they knew about this project, they would not be very thrilled, considering they're the largest aftermarket source for our service manuals. Hopefully GM won't take that into consideration.

BTW, I could have really used one of those manuals yesterday when I was attempting to replace my rear strut. What a nightmare! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another afected party in this matter is Helm, Inc. If they knew about this project, they would not be very thrilled, considering they're the largest aftermarket source for our service manuals.</div></div>

I believe that the 1990 service manual has been "out of stock" at Helm for at least several months.

I think that may be part of the reason these guys are pursuing the possibility of reproducing it online.

OOOhhhhh, I see. My bad.

Well, in any case, any one of these manuals would be handy to have in PDF format whether it's available or not. If I obtain an 89 manual from helm in the next month here, I WILL convert it to PDF format for my own use.