Dual Voltage Batteries

There is a company in Ohio that markets dual voltage batteries, they have sent me a fax copy of what one looks like. Does anyone out there in Packard cyberland have any first hand knowledge of these units. The man that bought my wifes 51 Patrician has been making noises of (gulp) transplanting some piece of GM garbage in the engine bay so he can install A/C. I contacted the A/C company and they make a 6 volt unit but they were quick to point out that the unit came with all sorts of disclaimers, then one of them told me about these dual voltage units.

Al, does this dual voltage battery require changes to charging system?

Hi...Al K.<P>Any modern well-insulated (meaning post 1930's all-steel) car can easily be air-conditioned.<P>The installation of the refrigeration system is a no-brainer - just takes a little ingenuity to come up with a larger capacity radiator, snake in the plumbing, and get an adequately sized condensor in the front-end sheet metal.<P>The ONLY reason it is a LOT easier to do it in a 12 volt car, is because of the 1) tremendous electrical loads of a blower system adequate to move ENOUGH cold air to off-set the heat loads coming into the car thru normal operation...easier to use "off the shelf" 12 volt components, than to try and come up with a 6 volt charing system strong enough to handle this) and 2) ALL modern "clutch" systems on air conditioners set up for automotive use, run off 12 volts.<P>The quickee-cheapee way to do that on your '51 Packard, would be simply change the generator, existing heater blower motor, radio (and, if it has hydraulic windows and top - change the motor in that ) voltage regulator, and all the bulbs, over to 12 volts. Hitting the starter with twice its design voltage won't do the starter motor's Bendix drive any good, but given the limited use the car will have, it would probably last long enough - and parts are still "off the shelf" for those systems.<P>The car should have a new radiator anyway, as just the years alone eventually reduces the cooling capacity of even the best-engineered cooling systems.<P>If I had a '51 Packard, and I was going to try and make a "daily driver" out of it, I sure as HELL would want air conditioning...! My still-clear memories of all the post war straight eight Packards with Ultramatic that I owned, would dictate a more dramatic approach. <P>Here's what I would do. Carefully loosen the two bolts on either side of the hood hinges, and with one fellow on each side, gently carry the hood over to a save storage space. Next...look into the engine bay. THEN REMOVE EVERYTHING YOU CAN SEE ( and save itr all for some guy who might want to return the car to "original" condition (why...I have NO idea...!)<P>A modern L 480 (or even the L460) GMC four speed automatic transmission, behind a "small block" Chevrolet/GMC, would be splendid for that application, and easy to install without "cobbling up" the car. I would recommend the 400 cu. in version - you can still get them freshly re-built out of the major engine rebuilding houses (you'll have to pay a couple of hundred dollars for not having a "exchange core".)<P>Simplest way to do this, is look for a 1991 or later ( in a wrecking yard ) GMC/Chevrolet Suburban ( I wouldnt bother with the "big block" version - too much "cobbling" for the wider engine block).<P>Dont forget to take the rear axle and drive shaft too - it is a "no brainer" to modify the spring perches and it will drop right in. <P>Without that awful, fragile Ultramatic, that cheapo drive shaft with its crummy "ball and trunion" U joint, and that crummy rear axle that I used to snap axle shafts on with alarming regularity, and with a decent-performing engine, AND...with air conditioning, I think a '51 Packard would make a damn attractive daily driver !<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs AZ

Peter: That was a very nice dissertation on 12 volt charging systems and on how to bastardize a nice car. However the question was "DOES ANYONE HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE 6/12 DUAL VOLTAGE BATTERY" You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and verbal diarreha had you just said "I don't know a blasted thing about them".

JT:<BR>From the fax I got which is not very good, I am not sure if the charging system needs to be changed. This does lead to some confusion such as how do you charge the 12 volt side when you have a generator putting out only 6 volts. I had asked them to send me some type of wiring diagram or installation instructions, but it looks like I will have to call again and ask. That was why I posted the question to see if anyone had any experience<BR>with these units.

Al, I can think of how it <I>might</I> be done electronically with a "dual" voltage battery made up of two 6 volt cells in series to produce 12 volts and still be able to charge with 6 volt system, but I would think the 12 volt demand would have to be low. I would be interested to hear what you find out.

The limited experiance I have had with the dual voltage battery is this...expensive high mantaince turkey. The battery I had to deal with had the solinoid above the battery and the off-gassing of the battery was forever corroding the termials and it was a constant battle to keep things working. Also the 12 volts was only available for starting...not for accessories. If it was mine I would either convert to 12 volts or hang a separate alt and 12 battery and have 2 electrical systems under the hood.<BR> Bill

Critterpainter: That thought had occurred to me as well. I even asked the guy at the A/C place about that and he said that it was feasable to do that. I guess taking into account all possibilities that would be the least expensive and the least alteration of the vehicle. On reflection though, it seems that the older we get the less likely we are to do without the creature comforts<BR>In 1951 very few cars had A/C and everyone seemed to survive, today, even myself, we don't even consider buying a car without A/C. I guess we have all become jaded in some ways. Thanks again.

AL K<P>Yeah....isn't it embarssing for us to admit we are old enough to remember riding around in cars that didn't have air conditioning...gawd....I am at the point now...where the cute young girls are no longer afraid of me.....!<P>However, bear in mind, there is a reason why we were able to survive in those years - the cars were designed to ventilate, AND, the windshield slopes were much steeper, so you didn't have a huge piece of glass acting as a radiant heater right on your face and upper body.<P>I am sorry my suggestions for getting USEABLE 12 volt power irritated you. You are being unfair...blaming the laws of physics and electrical load requirements..on ME...!<P>Of COURSE it is possible to get two six volt batteries into a '51 Packard, and thus get 12 volts with the "stock" generator. But the PROBLEM is, the stock generator will quickly over-heat in its hopeless effort to keep up with the electrical "drain" of the powerful blowers needed to get decent air flow. This would be true even if you filled the trunk with batteries - the reason why the industry went to 12 volts (long overdue), is recognition at how much cheaper and easier it is to get suffiicent electrical power to run all those accessories.<P>You are probably aware that air conditioning was available in '41 and '42 on some luxury cars. But remember, these primitive systems used huge piston-powered meat locker compressors, which did NOT have a current-draining electric clutch (they ran all the time-you were supposed to take the drive belt off in the winter...!).<P>And....the trunk mounted unit had a fairly small blower, which managed to keep up with the heat input loads of the smaller glass areas of that era. Your '51 has LOTS of window-glass...thus a much heavier heat load to fight. My recollection is those first Packards to come with factory air had MONSTER generators, and they STILL couldn't keep up with the electrical load of the smaller blowers of those systems.<P>I failed to suggest a THIRD alternative...which would be very inexpensive to do, and not involve "cobbling" anything on your car.<P>Why not just fabricate an additional bracket, and mount a modern "small case" self contained GM/Delco ALTERNATOR alongside your "stock" equipment. And add a 12 volt battery. This "piggy back" electrical system would not be connected to ANYTHING in the car - so that its electrical system would remain ENTIRELY original. But you'd have a separate 12 volt system for your air conditioner. <P>DRAKE has an excellent "trunk mounted" unit, which could go below the rear package shelf on your '52 ( in effect, you would be duplicating, with much more efficient modern equipment, what Packard had as an option in '54). <P>I doubt if you would spend over a hundred bucks this way, for both the battery and a re-built alternator. The modern air conditioning compressors DRAKE sells should be relatively easy to mount, and with 12 volts available for the clutch, would "never know" they are in an old car. I should have suggested this before...that's the way I would do it if I wanted air conditioning in a 6 volt car, and did not want to "mess up" the authenticity of the stock electrical system.<P>Pete Hartmann

AL K<P>Yeah....isn't it embarssing for us to admit we are old enough to remember riding around in cars that didn't have air conditioning...gawd....I am at the point now...where the cute young girls are no longer afraid of me.....!<P>However, bear in mind, there is a reason why we were able to survive in those years - the cars were designed to ventilate, AND, the windshield slopes were much steeper, so you didn't have a huge piece of glass acting as a radiant heater right on your face and upper body.<P>I am sorry my suggestions for getting USEABLE 12 volt power irritated you. You are being unfair...blaming the laws of physics and electrical load requirements..on ME...!<P>Of COURSE it is possible to get two six volt batteries into a '51 Packard, and thus get 12 volts with the "stock" generator. But the PROBLEM is, the stock generator will quickly over-heat in its hopeless effort to keep up with the electrical "drain" of the powerful blowers needed to get decent air flow. This would be true even if you filled the trunk with batteries - the reason why the industry went to 12 volts (long overdue), is recognition at how much cheaper and easier it is to get suffiicent electrical power to run all those accessories.<P>You are probably aware that air conditioning was available in '41 and '42 on some luxury cars. But remember, these primitive systems used huge piston-powered meat locker compressors, which did NOT have a current-draining electric clutch (they ran all the time-you were supposed to take the drive belt off in the winter...!).<P>And....the trunk mounted unit had a fairly small blower, which managed to keep up with the heat input loads of the smaller glass areas of that era. Your '51 has LOTS of window-glass...thus a much heavier heat load to fight. My recollection is those first Packards to come with factory air had MONSTER generators, and they STILL couldn't keep up with the electrical load of the smaller blowers of those systems.<P>I failed to suggest a THIRD alternative...which would be very inexpensive to do, and not involve "cobbling" anything on your car.<P>Why not just fabricate an additional bracket, and mount a modern "small case" self contained GM/Delco ALTERNATOR alongside your "stock" equipment. And add a 12 volt battery. This "piggy back" electrical system would not be connected to ANYTHING in the car - so that its electrical system would remain ENTIRELY original. But you'd have a separate 12 volt system for your air conditioner. <P>DRAKE has an excellent "trunk mounted" unit, which could go below the rear package shelf on your '52 ( in effect, you would be duplicating, with much more efficient modern equipment, what Packard had as an option in '54). <P>I doubt if you would spend over a hundred bucks this way, for both the battery and a re-built alternator. The modern air conditioning compressors DRAKE sells should be relatively easy to mount, and with 12 volts available for the clutch, would "never know" they are in an old car. I should have suggested this before...that's the way I would do it if I wanted air conditioning in a 6 volt car, and did not want to "mess up" the authenticity of the stock electrical system.<P>Pete Hartmann

damn...sorry about the "double post"...dont know how that happened... ? ?

IF the car already has a GOOD 6 volt sytem (good starter, generator etc) then i would attempt to install an auxillary 12v alternator. Geo Metro and Suzuki Samuri use a VERY small alternator and that should be ez to mount to the engine and just leave the 6V genertator inplace. DO NOTE that u want to get a alternator with a 'V' belt not flat. The cheapest way out is buy a slightly larger Delco alt. for '70's chevies and mount it.<P>If the 6V system of the car is in poor condition to start with then u need to do the 12V conversion and use a DELCO alternator.

Has anyone considered putting in a 6 volt alternator to get the charging capacity and using an inverter to get the 12 volts for the clutch operation???<BR>Happy Hobbying

Hi...Ried....yeah..I have seen six volt alternators advertised. They should have enough electrical power to run big 6 volt blowers.......an invertor could get you enough power to run the clutch.<P>But what about the very powerful "high amperage draw" blowers necessary to move enough air to make the system work. The intial question was about air-conditioning a '51 Packard. Air-conditioning was NOT avail. as a factory option in that time period, so cars were not as well insulated as they are today. Also, that thing has a LA LOT of glass area. To air-condition it properly, without screwing up the dash area, I'd be thinking in terms of a huge trunk mounted unit - these are avail.<P>But the electrical motors inside pull a lot of amperage. Laws of physics are pretty inforgiving...takes LOTS of energy to move that much air thru the system.<P>I am not aware of a modern off-the-shelf six volt "continious duty" motor that would drive the blowers at the correct rpm.<P>If you think it thru, you may come to the same conclusion I have - if you want modern, reliable, "fuss free" and EFFECTIVE mechanical refrigeration, you are "stuck" with needing 12 volts.<P>Again, per my above "post", I think the easiest way to this, without "cobbling up" the car, is just build some extra brackets, and mount a modern "small case" Delco alternator (regulators are internal) leaving the car's original electrical system alone. The 12 volt system would be completely isolated from the car's original equip., would just handle the a/c.<P>Nothing wrong with 6 volts from a reliability standpoint. My '38 Packard Twelve has now 150,000 mi on it...changed the voltage reg. once...and changed the generator's brushes....ABOUT FORTY YEARS AGO ! The lights are bright, and it starts the way ANY expensive car of ANY era should, not or cold. RIGHT NOW !<P>Pete Hartmann

the original packard air systems 51-55 did not have a clutch on the compressor,so you only had 1 extra motor to power, and at the same time you where not using the heater motor. Packard even recomended removing the compressor belt in the off season.

I don't think there is an 6 to 12 volt inverter that will handle more than a couple of amps available at any reasonable cost. Also I don't think there efficiency is very good.

Thanks one and all. Conclusion: I will install the rear mounted blower unit from Classic Auto Air, get a delco(internal regulator) and a small compressor from a tracker. Total cost of parts will be around $650. The biggest hassle will be finding some one to make the necessary bracketts and a belt that is long enough. I expect to be into this for less than $1K<BR>Thanks again

AL: try to use a compressor that is POPULAR so u can get replacements. I'm using an 86 Toyota compressor on my 56 Executive altho 86 parts r getting hard to find. As for the alternator double check on prices. At AZO a 'Lifetime' Delco alternator for a 73 chevy (still very abundant) about $40.<BR>The Geo Metro and Kubota tractor (i believe) use the SAME alternator and it is very small. For our applications, the small alternator and compressor will work just fine. Easier to mount to. Dont forget, u will need an extra pulley mounted to the front of the crankshaft to drive the compressor too unless u can figure out how to one of the other belts to wrap the compressor pulley enuf to drive it. Takes ALOT to drive those compressors. About 3 - 7 Horse power.

i think u r wise in avoiding the 'specialty' dual voltage battery idea. Its probably expensive, short life and replacemet mite get to be an issue. Usually, one is better off cobbling late model parts from popular brands for a retro fit rather than trying to apply 'specialty' or special-purpose items.

There is a company in Ohio that markets dual voltage batteries' date=' they have sent me a fax copy of what one looks like. Does anyone out there in Packard cyberland have any first hand knowledge of these units. The man that bought my wifes 51 Patrician has been making noises of (gulp) transplanting some piece of GM garbage in the engine bay so he can install A/C. I contacted the A/C company and they make a 6 volt unit but they were quick to point out that the unit came with all sorts of disclaimers, then one of them told me about these dual voltage units.[/quote']

lbrady.dont know if i am doing this correct but i purchased a 6/12 volt battery for my 52 international school bus and its purpose is strictly for starting the bus in 12 volt mode then transfers back to 6 volt for the regular electrical system.it is not for running 12 volt accessories,just starting the vehicle.

I know that this is a very old post but my two cents' worth is that back in the '60s I had one of the 6/12V batteries in my 1940 Packard 110 and it worked well, starting the car on 12v, then running and recharging it as a 6v battery by switching the two halves into a parallel system. Only the starter ever got 12v so you couldn't run 12v accessories from it. In fact, I still have the relay if anyone needs it.

The battery itself was proprietary (although if you had the space, you could use two separate 6v batteries) with an extra set of lead posts near the center that connected to the relay which itself looked like a starter solenoid with extra connectors. One set of connectors went to the accessories so that they always got only 6v but otherwise I do not recall that there was any special wiring needed and most certainly no changes were needed to the charging system. Having said all that, a properly working 6v system might seem to crank slowly by modern standards but it has always started all of my Packards without fail.

my limo came with a dual voltage battery and opima switch something like that. it use 12 volt for starting and six volt the rest of the time.

I had one in the 51 Cadillac when I bought it. It had a short life and you still needed a starting system in good order. I was able to find battery rebuilders who supplied them over the years.

I go tired of the expense and reconverted the car back to a standard 6V battery. I still have a couple of the battery solenoids if someone needs one.