What "exactly" defines a matching numbers car?

I know for a fact that my '63 Electra has a '62 401 in it. I'm not sure of the year of the transmission and differential, but I know for a fact that they've both been replaced, according to the man I bought the car from. I plan on keeping my favorite car, but I'm curious as to the definition of a matching numbers car, and how important it is to the value of the car for resale, when that day finally comes. If I install the "original" motor, transmission, and differential from another '63 Electra, will I have a matching numbers car??? If so, my next question is...how can I be sure that the three parts on the host car all match. When it comes right down to it, if I can't have a numbers matching car, it won't bother me, since I'm sure that a lot of the best looking Buicks probably have replacement drive trains. This matching numbers thing has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Thanks.<BR>Pat

I think it is more of an issue for muscle car buyers. For instance anyone can put a hemi in a mopar, but if it originally came with a hemi and it has never been replaced due to misuse or abuse then it is a rare and valuable car. Some manufactures had hi-perf transmissions and rearends just for their high-perf motors. This makes them extra special because they are factory hi-performance parts. Since the car was built as a high performace machine from the factory it is a bigger part of muscle car history and therefore more valuable.<P>Personally I think their are three things that make old cars desirable.<P>Looks<BR>Power<BR>Historical Value<P>A numbers matching high performance car, or otherwise rare car would have more historical value.<P>The more popular classics are more popular because they are more...<BR>practical(size) <BR>easier to fix/upgrade(parts availability, etc.)<P>Thats why Mustangs and Chevelles are worth more than Big Buicks.<P>My Two Cents

The term "numbers matching" can mean many things. <P>For example, years ago, cars didn't always have a VIN, they had a motor number that often was used as a serial number. The motor number was stamped both on the body of the car somewhere, on a metal plate and the engine block, usually (not always) in a fairly accessable location. Often, the number on the car had to be the same number as the number on the motor. Some car makers also recorded the number on the transmission. These numbers later evolved into what we now know as the VIN. If you changed motors, and therefore had a new number, you had to go to an inspection station, or police officer, and get a statement certifying the new motor number. <P>For cars sought out by serious collectors, there are books that specify the PART numbers on things like carburetors, distributors, intake and exhaust manifolds, and so forth. If, for example, your '62 whatever has a 350 cu. in. engine rated at 300 h.p., and is supposed to have a 1234567 distributor, but your car has a 1234555 distributor, then either the engine is wrong or the distributor was replaced. To a purist, that is not a numbers-matching car. <P>Later on, most manufacturers started specifying the engine that came in the car on the small metal plate, usually on the cowl, that also included the factory color and other major options. So, if someone is claiming that their '70 Chevelle is a very rare 396 cu. in. high-performance big block with a Muncie 4-speed transmission in fire-engine red, it is worth a LOT of money to a collector. But if the codes on the plate says it came with a 350 cu. in. two-barrel carb and three-speed automatic and was painted olive green, the car is a fraud. Unfortunately, the same is true with 70-72 GS cars that have been converted into a 'clone' GSX car. They may have a 455 cu.in. engine that is right for that model year, but if the plate says it came with the 350 engine, then it is not a true GSX. <P>What does it hurt? That depends. If you want a GSX, but can only afford a good GS car, you CAN buy virtually all of the parts unique to the GSX, and you can have a GS painted to one of the GSX colors. Good; now go and enjoy your car. Just don't bring it to a collector car show or auction and try to sell it to someone for the price of a true GSX. If you do, you, the auctioneer and your insurance company could be sued for mail and wire fraud. That is because a very nice GS 350 coupe is worth $5-15K, depending on mileage and condition, but a true numbers-matching mint GSX can draw $30-50K from the right collector. Notice I said CAN, not always WILL. <P>Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to touch as many possible bases as I could. If you ask this question to ten different collectors, you'd probably get at least 12 different answers. <P>Joe<P>[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Reatta Man ]<p>[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Reatta Man ]

Very good response on the "matching numbers" question. While there is no harm to "cloning" a vehile to either a GS or GSX, it should very well be noted upon selling the vehile of that fact, to the new owner. I guess that its funny about cloning...I went to the Detroit Woodward Dream Cruise for the past 3 years, and you couldn't go 5 ft without seeing a '66-'67 GTO....couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one. Darn funny though, because it was more rare to see just a regular Tempest or LeMans....by the numbers of them you see on the road - THOSE are the rare cars.....as are the regular Skylarks.

Pat, I have to agree with Tomsriv on this question. I really think it matters on a high performance car like a big block Mopar. One of my Buicks is a 62 Invicta convertible. The original 401 was very tired with alot of miles on it. I came across an original 63 Buick with 30,000 miles on it. I swapped engines because I think a factory original is much better than tearing my old engine down and rebuilding it. Plus it was alot cheaper to do than a total rebuild. I paid $700.00 for the 63. It would have cost me a ton of money to rebuild the old one. So my car doesn't have matching engine #'s. It runs great. I know the engine is clean as a whistle inside..........If i sold the car tomorrow, I think the buyer would feel the same........My 2 cents

I own a 1970 White GSX that I bought in October 1977. This car has only 69000 miles on it and is all original except for the engine. When I purchased the car it had the second motor in it and the orginal engine was long gone. 6 or seven years ago in a weak moment I advertised the car for sale and I had several inquiries but couldn't bring myself to part with it. One man actually told me that my car was little better than a parts car since it didn't have the orignal motor in it. I took it off the market and still have the nicest parts car on the road. When the above writer said you can get as anal as you want he wasn't kidding and I guess I feel my car has no limit to its value and if you have an all original GSX good for you. But you couldn't buy my parts car for $30000.

Great thread. It's good to review this every now and then. If you want a numbers matching car, buy it. It's extremely expensive and frustrating to attempt to build a numbers car from one that's not. I spent a few years trying to turn a street maching 64 Malibu SS into a numbers car. Never got it done. I traded it for a 62 225 and I'm happier for it.

Sure theres nothing cooler than an all original car thats "never been apart" but I'd be afraid to drive one.What if something happened or broke. The reason they have never been apart is they were not driven. The ultimate let down for a car.If they were driven they might have had something go bad. Some are quick to replace some would rebuild. These old cars meant alot to some and to others they were just the car they were driving at the time.<P>I agree with sintid on this one. These cars we like so much,you know the one. The one thats on YOUR property is no doubt the best car for you. Youve slaved over it, revived it , saved it , preserved it , upgraded it , customized it, whatever. Its worth more to you than your going to sell it for. Try to replace it for what you can sell it for. While the fanatics are tearing a car apart to see if the #'s match open the garage door and go for a ride,smile a think to yourself "my thats one fine automobile".<P>you gotta love em!

Hmmmm.... the guy that started this topic has a 63 deuce with a 1962 engine in it, and "Skyking" says he has a 62 Electra with a 63 engine.<P>Why don't you two guys get together and swap engines and everyone will be happy!

There was a story several years ago in Cars & Parts magazine about a guy who was having a big bucks restoration done to a Corvette. I think it was about a 1956-7 model.<P>Anyway, with the car already under restoration, the owner attends a show and spots a pickup truck with a Corvette engine. He looks and looks, comes back and looks more. Writes down some numbers, makes some calls and concludes that that engine has the matching numbers for his Corvette. It must have been sold at some time and ended up in this low-buck truck. Everything else in the Corvette was original.<P>The truck owner refused to sell the engine. Finally did for $12,000. It had cost him less than $500.<P>This story had been verified. Just shows how much "matching numbers" mean to certain buyers.

The "lemans-to-GTO" metamorphosis is another good example. I'm not as familiar with Pontiacs, but I'm sure a true goat-lover could tell the clones from the genuine articles in a heartbeat (no pun intended, Chevy fans).<P>A while back I heard of a book used by Corvette restorers that would tell you how to 'make' your Corvette into a factory original car. It included a list of what marks were put on the chassis of a Corvette while it rolled down the assembly line, where you could buy the wax pencils in the proper color to make the marks in the correct color for a particular year, where to make the marks and which marks were made upside down on the car since part of the chassis was assembled and inspected upside down at the factory! It also included all the codes for the stickers that are put on different components at the factory, such as the labels on springs and gas lines. <P>Talk about cloning!! How would you like to spend major bucks buying one of those fakes?

Pat,<P>To add on to the above comments...<P>Numbers matching mania even goes to ensuring the castings and other accessories have the correct casting or assembly date on them. In other words, a '65 GS's intake manifold should have a casting date that was 30-90 days prior to the build date. Anything substanitally off this date or after the assembly date of the car would breach the 'numbers matching' critiria. Same goes for other assembled parts that have date stamps on them (transmissions, a/c compressors, clocks, ignition wires, wheels, tires, lenses, lamps, window glass....)<P>So, you can be as anal as you want with this, if it's what spins your beanie....<P>Cheers,<BR>JMC

The replies about personal or first-hand experiences are great. <P>It reminds me of what happened to me with my '72 El Camino. It was totalled by a woman who rear-ended me at 45 MPH while I sat at a red light. Insurance company paid me off, and I bought the car back. One guy wanted to pay up to $2000 for a TOTALLED El Camino because he wanted the 350 engine with the correct markings for that year. When I told him it had a NEW Goodwrench 350 engine with only a few thousand miles on it, he was no longer interested. <P>Here's an interesting question: if you had a factory-perfect GSX or other muscle car, but during its original factory warranty the engine was replaced by the manufacturer for some reason, would it affect its' value? After all, we are talking about a new GM engine, replacing a bad motor, in a dealer's service department. Hmmmm....<P>I think most of you are right about one thing; the car is worth a lot to you because it gives you pleasure owning and driving it; not because of some obscure numbers stamped on the back of the motor or carburetor. <P>Where the HOBBY has been damaged is by BUSINESS people that have no love for these cars, buying, restoring or selling only for the money. Often they use the "numbers-matching" mantra in order to make a bigger product; not to make or preserve a better car. <P>Joe

Ok...definatly both sides to the story. I would be upset if I could afford a numbers matching machine, and somebody was advertising an "original" that was a non-numbers matching resto. On the flip side, I would love to put a GS hood on a regular skylark or such....but not the markings (my preference - thus I wouldn't be truely "cloning"). But a question, I ran into certain shocks from the 60's that were called "spiral" Delco shocks that were supposed to be on the vehicle straight from the factory floor that were supposed to be NOS ...also came across some shocks that were Delco which were non-spiral that were also NOS advertised. How can you upkeep the maintenance on the vehicles to make it EXACTLY numbers matching, factory original (???) when those "factory original" parts aren't made anymore ? There was a difference between Delco stuff on the car from the factory, and even what the dealerships sold over the counter as "factory original" per their definition. Truely fodder for arguements and for the lawyers when you get down to it. I agree with the synopsis that seems to be forming here....take what you have, and be happy with it whatever work or research you put into it I know I am ....

This is a good topic...........by the way, 70Electra, my car is an Invicta...,but getting back to numbers, when I was restoring my 66 Skylark, I needed one 3-T headlight and went on e-bay seaching. I found a couple of people selling them, so I bid on a set and won them. When I received them they were all black at the top, so I e-mailed the guy and he said "well they are used, what do you expect?" So not happy with them I bought a new set from Yearone for $100.00. Weeks later I searched e-bay again, just curious to see how many other suckers were out there besides me. There was this guy selling one from a 60's Corvette and his starting price was $50.00. I e-mailed him and said "why would I want to bid $50.00 on one used headlight, when I can get a brand new set from Yearone for $100.00. His reply was, "well, this has a special code number for a AACA National...." I thought WOW! these people are strange............

Skyking,<P> Gotta put the clamps down on that E-bay vendor claiming a headlight was "AACA Correct". There is no such requirement in the AACA judging rules for such a thing.<P> Now in single marque club judging, detail headlight correctness may be a requirement. But usually that is reserved for ultra high calibre cars. <P> Tom

To the point regarding replacement of an original engine with an original replacement (NORS). I'd guess that would disqualify the car as number matching.<P>I just bought a 'correct date coded' windshield for my 59 Impala Sport Coupe. Is that numbers match; I think not. It's a new windshield with the date painted on.<P>In my humble opinion, the desirable car is the unrestored car.<P>I once judged a 59 Impala convertible that was supposed to be built with NOS parts. The car was nice but the parts had not been restored. A part sitting on a shelf for 40 years is apt to get nicked and scratched. They were put on the car in that condition; all scratched and nicked. I think I'd rather have an original car than one that has been assembled with new, scratched parts.<P>When I got serious about this hobby, I was building a 60 El Camino with 348 3x2 4speed. That's very rare. I had visions of numbers matching and trailer queen. As my estimates continued to double, I stopped.

Back again- besides my GSX I also own a 1958 Buick Special 4 door sedan with only 51000 documented actual miles I purchased from the orginal owner. It even has T3 headlights in it. This is a all numbers matching car but not worth the big bucks because of the age bracket and the fact it is a four door. It also has a three speed manual tranmission which also makes it fairly rare. Rare and numbers matching in this case does not make valuable. This is a very nice car and is what I wanted but I do realize that it will never be an ultra high dollar car. This is what some people in this hobby need to realize. Just because it is ultra rare and original unless is it also very desirable to a wide range of people it is not ever going to be worth a great deal of money. I you spend 20,000 dollars perfecting an middle of the road car (as far as desirability) you can expect to take a large loss when selling it. This is not to say you shouldn't restore what you like but don't expect to get the money invested back out of these cars it won't happen. If I was in the hobby to make money I wouldn't do it for long.

To add to what Reatta Man said, I worked in a GM dealer in late 1979 in the parts departmant when we needed a partial engine for a 79 Trans Am, 400 4 speed, as the side of the block was blown out due to broken rods.<BR>We could not get the "correct" service block assembly as all stock had been exhausted (December of 79 or January of 80) After calling GM Parts and the Pontiac Zone we were authorized to use a earlier partial engine as a replacement. This was all documented with names and dates on the repair order as it was a warranty claim. <BR>Also, in the muscle car era, many times complete assemblies of engines and transmissions were substituted when a original was damaged beyond economical repair<BR>either by the dealership or the owner of the car. (Does anybody else remember when we used to buy Muncie 4 speeds for between 75 to 100 bucks?) All I'm saying is that a numbers matching car is great, but either number matching or non-matching is still a survivor, and after all the use and abuse many of them got it is still great that they are around.

Many of you have made excellent comments, especially those highlighting the fever that often surrounds a "numbers matching" car, or a car the owner thinks should bring BIG bucks because it is rare due to its options. <P>I've attended many Kruse auctions where the owner had unrealistic expectations about a car for these reasons. A '69 Bonneville with a documented factory 3-speed manual was a rare car, but it was also in average condition, and it was a four door. The owner turned down $9100 at auction--I would have taken nine grand and run for a four-door Bonney any day of the week. Another guy turned down $11,500 for a '67 Electra 2-door because it only had a few thousand miles for it. Does anyone think that nearly twelve grand is not a good price for a clean Electra 225 at a well-advertised national auction?? <P>Fortunately, I've found most BCA members are more interested in the fun they get from their cars than the profit potential. I sure hope all BCA members try to keep the fun in the hobby, and let the profiteers die out. <P>Joe

I have only been to one classic car auction but can agree. At this auction a very nice 64 plymouth sport fury had a high bid of $12000 and the owner didnt accept it. I thought this was a very good price for the car it had a 383 4 barrel. If it had been a hemi or somthing very exoctic it could have brought more. Quite often on ebay you see people expect huge prices from their cars just because they are rare or rebuilt. One in particular comes to mind it was a very noce 60 Buick Le Sabre with A/C and a factory 3 speed. I know they had a bid of over 9000 at one time and the reserve wasnt met. This is a perfect example of what we area talking about.