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Right or Wrong?


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First let me say that i absolutely enjoy these forums on "Collectable Automobile Discussion Form" (all of them). I find myself most of the time exactly between "Chuck" and "hvm". I am a believer in "correctness" in judging but I believe that unless you (the judges) are specially trained in the makes you are judging you may be out of your league. I have no direct knowledge of the judging procedures of any of the national clubs. I had my car judged at a car event in Winnipeg in the sixties and I will never have a car of mine judged ever again. Let me tell you why. Friends of mine, fellow members of my club judged my car a 1930 Pontiac Custom Sedan. This car was original and at that time was still owned by its original owner (My Grandfather). They took points off because it had varnished spokes in the wheels, a two blade fan and the door handles were not the same as Chevrolet. It has taken me almost 40 years to locate original sales literature and brocures to prove these guys were wrong. I believe (and certainly hope) that judges today have progressed far in fourty years. I think that some of the cars restored specifically for judging meets are fantastick and I wouldn't knock their owners in any way. However I have driven my car over 470,000 miles in fourty-three years. I have changed a few internal things when I had to as originals were not available. Until my c&p became toothless in August it was my daily driver. I do not think that I will ever restore my car as I get so much fun out of useing it all the time. My point in this post is that there is lots of room here in these forums for all of us and all of us can pick up something now and then from someone else. I hope that people are able to keep beyond personal and stick to mechanical. These forums are second only to driving my car as a source of personal pleasure.<BR>Happy Hobbying To All. smile.gif" border="0

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Reid ~ I honestly believe that AACA judging has improved greatly in 40 years. I have been involved in AACA judging for 34 years and have seen and helped to inplement some of those improvements.<P>If you showed and had your car judged in Winnipeg 40 years ago it was <B>NOT</B> at an AACA National Meet, staffed with AACA National Judges operating under AACA National Judging rules. So please do not fault our system when it wasn't involved.<P>The first AACA National Meet held outside of the United States was held in Winnipeg about 12-15 years ago.<P>I know this does not make you feel any better about what happened 40 years ago, but realize that we AACA judges are not to blame.<P>And finally, everyone has the right to do with his or her vehicles as they see fit. No arguement on that score. Whether a person restores it, leaves it unrestored, or drives it, there is a place for it at an AACA National Meet. AACA does not accept Hot Rods for judging because it isn't our thing and no organization can be all things to all people or vehicles. We don't accept farm tractors for judging either. <P>That is not a criticism of anything or anyone or their car, just an honest, straight forward statement of fact. ~ hvs smile.gif" border="0

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My apologies to hvs if I was not clear. i had and have no specific knowledge as to the judging procedures of any National or International club. At the time of the above mentioned event our club was the best we had. I have sometimes thought I would like to join the POCI club and be a judge for 1932 and earlier Pontiacs but I think I would be either frustrated or unpopular. I believe that a car should lose points for being over restored or for anything that is not original and certainly to have pot metal knobs and handles recast in bronze and then plated as original is not original. To take a Fisher bodied car and re wood it with oak is not original. I suppose to be a real *** about original you couldn't or shouldn't have a new spring leaf made (unless it is the exact same metal content as the original)<BR>Please don't think that I was being critical of any one in particular. I was just trying to show that sometimes a rather small thing that someone says or does can have a lasting influence or someone else.<BR>I still say and mean Happy Hobbying.

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Reid ~ Thanks for your understanding.<P>You're right, a tough judge can become unpopular with an owner just for being correct, fair and honest. shocked.gif" border="0 ~ hvs smile.gif" border="0

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Reid, HVS, one of my most heartfelt feelings is the longing to take my son's and daughter to an event where they could see tractors, 4X4's, antique cars, airplanes of all types, boats all on display with no prejudice between their owners. Something like a World Fair for machinery where the guy with a Honda import would be next to a model T next to a Navy jet next to a restored Wellington bomber. To me they are just assemblies of mechanical art and I love them all equally. You know something my little boy doesn't know the difference either, until someone teaches him different. I try very hard to not poison his mind with my prejudices so he can be free to make up his own mind. I am probably just a dreamer but I will do my damnest to change the status que. Maybe one day my offspring can make it happen when I could not.<P>Perhaps judging anything by it's cover is just wrong and maybe giving out trophy's is the wrong way to show appreciation in the sport. Your story is not the first I have heard and I know how you feel, I honestly don't know what the answer is to fix the hobby. <P>So many vehicles sit languishing in garages because they are not "correct" and the owner feels he won't be accepted by his own club, I personally want to see your car and could not care one wit if it has original door handles or not. As long as my little boy gets to see it too, I know he won't know the difference and most of the masses don't either. Be proud of your beauty and enjoy it as much as you can. If a little boy comes up to you don't show him the parts that are not correct, let him honk the horn and hear that motor purr. That feeling is better than any trophy anyway.<P>AAAAHHOOOOOGAAAAAA!!! VROOM VROOM!! grin.gif" border="0

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AACA will judge Hot Rods. For the record, a 25 year old Hot Rod that can be documented to have raced can be shown in class 24A. This class is open to all documented race cars 25 years old back to the dawn of time.Model T Ford powered sprint cars to 25 year old Top Fuel rails. The race vehicle classes are the only AACA classes where you have to prove your vehicle is what it is long before it hits the show field. Getting the plaque that proves this is the frist step.

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Chuck ~<P>Take your children to the Henry Ford Museum, in Dearborn. It has much of the combination you are looking for, and much more. smile.gif" border="0

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Chuck,<P>Your dreams are commendable but I think you need to be a bit more open minded, and at the same time more of a realist.<P>The AACA (and most other clubs) should not be judged by the fact that they have the occasional car show with judging. A vast majority of car clubs regional outings have ZERO judging. Even on a national level the AACA has more tours than judging events. Judging is just one facet of the hobby. On top of that judging serves a purpose - to preserve history. A pretty worthy purpose in my humble opinion. On top of that clubs like the AACA accommodate all types of cars including hot rods , drivers, original cars (HPOF) as well as trailer queens. Go to a show, you'll see. Get a copy of the judges manual? it will give you the details.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aaca.org/judging/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aaca.org/judging/index.htm</A> <P>As to your comment: "longing to take my son's and daughter to an event where they could see tractors, 4X4's, antique cars, airplanes of all types, boats all on display with no prejudice between their owners." Its not prejudice, it's personal preference. Nothing wrong with that. The first thought that came to mind is expecting enthusiasts of basketball, baseball, hockey, football and bridge all getting together for one big event. People have different interests, I don?t see that as a negative ? its actually a great positive!<P>Even in our hobby people have many different interests? restoration, preservation, touring, history, even managing a website ? all are different facets of our hobby, and all are as noble as the next.<P>Peter

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Bob ~ Of course you are correct about a documented race vehicle including a 25+ year old hot rod being eligable for show in class 24A. However, I don't think documented raced hot rods are really what most people are thinking about when discussing hot rods.<BR>I may be wrong, but I think generally we are talking about newer rods which have not been in sanctioned races. Just my opinion.<P>Chuck ~ If you ever locate such a display, let us know about it. I will be among the first to go there. It probably will never happen, not because of conflict among the different groups of owners, but because of simple logistics. Water, a runway, plenty of open ground all together in one place and most restrictive of all, liability considerations. For now I guess we will have to content ourselves with trips to Oshkosh, boat shows, car shows, hot rod shows and farm shows. smile.gif" border="0 ~ hvs

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Reid, you would be a breath of fresh air if you decided to become a judge for the early cars in POCI. They only hold one national meet a year and at this time there are no qualifications for being a judge. Show up and you can judge if you want. If fact many times they are short on judges and will pick just about anyone that can breath and walk. For anyone who complains about the AACA judging they really need to see how some of the other clubs operate.

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Dear Reid, Have you thought about bringing your car to a show and not having it judged? There also are classes for 'unrestored' & 'original' as well as 'drivers' classes. That way you won't have to endure the crises of judging shocked.gif" border="0 but you can enjoy the all the other cars, while others can enjoy your car. It's just a thought that I hope you might consider smile.gif" border="0cool.gif" border="0 Regards Jeff

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JAW<BR>I have had my car to many shows and displays. It looks over seventy years and 470,000 miles old and I have (won??) three peoples choice awards at displays in Malls. I have had many many people comment that my car looks like an "old car". What they mean of course is it looks like an old car really looked when it was in daily use. Thirty years ago club members were agast when I let my sons ride in the car and eat icecream in it. Some of them were great guys though. One fellow had a 1928 Packard (yes I know there is no such thing but it was registered as 1928 and I cannot remember the series). When we had runs to Winnipeg Beach him an I used to race (haha) well at least we used to pass one another a time or two and get over fourty miles an hour. Usually the last time he would pass me I would be doing about 60 and he would slide by as quiet and imperious as only a Classic can.One of the Club members out here in Victoria has a Nash. The running gear is perfectly restored and he has done the body to look like the cars did during the Depression when farmers were roaming the country looking for work. Now there is a real show stopper.<BR>Happy Hobbying smile.gif" border="0

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some club's rules specifically state that normal dirt from road use is not to be a cause for deduction.<P>Remember that all judges are volunteers - as stated earlier, one of the best ways to help is to be a judge and help a club with a meet!<BR>Judging teams of 2 or 3 are a good way to avoid an over-anal judge.

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AACA rules provide for no deductions for dirt and/or damage "on the way to the meet", not for long term dirt and crud build-up. As an example, a few years ago when Sally (Mrs. ronbarn) was chief judge for the Grand National, we received a call from a registered owner who had been caught in a mudslide and damaged the fender of his car in the trailer. We told him to come on to the GN and informed the judging team that the damage happened on the way to the meet. No deductions for the damage and it won it's GN First.<P>AACA teams include four members and a Team Captain and a Deputy Chief Judge. The Captain and Deputy are charged with the responsibility to assure that the judging of each individual judge is fair and accurate.

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