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1952 Special Deluxe Project


Guest shadetree77

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Guest shadetree77

Al, I'll answer as best I can here.

1. I would have to say a combination of wear on the spring due to time, rubber seal shrinkage due to age, and overall faulty design. She may have less than 70,000 on her but you have to remember that these seals appear to be original to the car and have been on there for 60 years. There has bound to have been some shrinkage.

2. I have located a NOS spring to replace my original. After 60 years of being under pressure I'm guessing my spring has lost some of it's, well for lack of a better word, springiness (if that is even a word). I'm also ordering a new rubber seal. Beyond that, I don't believe anything can be done to keep it from reoccurring eventually. I'm of the opinion that sooner or later, that seal will fail to some degree and all you can do is to keep the leaked fluid drained so that it will not enter the axle. I am most likely going to take Willie's advice and drill a drain hole in the torque tube and thread in some kind of plug.

3. I have to say I'm not a fan of the prop shaft spline seal design. It is destined for failure. That small spring can't possibly keep enough pressure against the seal forever. Then you add in the expansion and contraction of the rubber seal and it's a recipe for failure. As for the rear axle assembly, I don't have a problem with it at all. It does it's job efficiently and to my eyes, seems to be more sturdy than a conventional set up. It's not that hard to remove either, after you study it for a bit. As a matter of fact, right after we finished rolling it out from under the car my Dad said, "I've had a regular rear end take twice as long to remove!".

I look forward to hearing your ideas on the matter.

Chris, I read your post early this morning and went up there to take a closer look at that groove. I cleaned off the end of the universal and scrubbed all the gunk out of that groove. It appears to be machine cut. It's a perfect spiral that goes around the piece and the ends of the groove taper off. The ends don't meet with each other. They overlap like a spiral that ends. Hope that makes sense. Down in the grooves there appear to be tiny cutting marks. I tried to take a better picture after cleaning it. It was hard to capture the details in my dark shop and the flash on my camera kept whiting it out. At least I'm hoping that it is machined on there. Does anyone know if it's supposed to be there?

On to a little update. I didn't get ANYTHING done this weekend. I had fully planned on posting pictures of a freshly painted axle and torque tube tonight but the so-called "perfect storm" has put a damper on that. We have been lucky enough to avoid the major storm activity but we are getting cold air and high winds from it. As a result, the temperature here has dropped into the low to mid 50's during the day and will stay that way until Wednesday. The paint I'm using says that the outside temp. must be above 57 and it's not going to be until, you guessed it, Wednesday. I did attend the Dawsonville Moonshine Festival on Saturday (pictures coming soon) and I bought myself a HUGE Buick sign for my shop. It was half the price I've seen it listed for online so I couldn't resist. Not an original or anything. It's a cheap re-pop but as long as you keep them out of direct sunlight (the paint fades quickly) they look just fine. Pretty boring update but every day can't be filled with progress I suppose.:)

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Guest chevy_dude97
That makes sense Robert. The spiral groove should act like a prop in a sense to move fluid in a certain direction.

The "acts like a prop" suggestion doesn't sound legit to me. Looks more like a spring was wearing in the same spot. Just my .02

The only time I have seen something like that was to retain some thing else like a clip. You may want to check if there is a minimum width for that and maybe have it turned? I have seen hardened seals do that on th350s that no matter how many seals you throw at it it will start leaking. If this is anywhere near the seal I think it would completely bypass it utilizing the "spiral" kind of like a blood line on a knife. Maybe this is where your trans fluid is coming from?

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Guest chevy_dude97

The U joint is lubricated by ATF? The Rear Diff fluid, My guess is if it is a purpose built to move fluid it would be to lubricate the seal? Either way this is a very good source for your ATF fluid being in the diff. looking at your pictures that seal is the only place it appears to allow such "seepage" Maybe just a good new seal would stop it? Im not sure there should be that much ATF in that area to be able to push into the rear. Either way Good Luck on the clean up and post some pics after you paint!

I also found a couple more pics from another post on here http://forums.aaca.org/f162/torque-tube-separation-torque-ball-326029-2.html

On his a "55" Looks like the "Groove" is a complete circle tapering off at one end.

Then I found a NOS here this http://www.buickfarm.net/components/com_redshop/assets/images/product/742011223450-Picture.JPG

Sorry I cannot upload pics from work, but the second pic shows these grooves on an NOS U-joint

Edited by chevy_dude97 (see edit history)
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Guest chevy_dude97

looking at the pics more it looks like the u-joint presses far enuff into the prop shaft that it may be lubricating via diff fluid, assuming the rest of the prop shaft utilizes diff fluid for lubrication, the only problem I have with that is you would not want diff fluid in or any where near the trans. Im no Engineer but the whole vehicle seems over engineered... :confused:

Edited by chevy_dude97 (see edit history)
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Guest shadetree77

Thanks guys. It's good to know that the groove is supposed to be there. I was hearing the sound of cash registers in my sleep! The groove on that NOS part looks just like mine. Thanks for digging that up chevy_dude.

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Guest shadetree77

Finally got some nice weather this weekend. I got the axle/torque tube assembly, springs, and various other parts painted. We spent most of the day Friday making sure all of the crud was scraped off of everything and then we used Marine Clean (POR-15 product) to do the final degreasing.

Saturday was painting day. Unfortunately, the long day spent scrubbing took it's toll on my Dad's recent back injury and he was not able to help. My Mom ended up helping me quite a bit though. I'm glad she did too or I would not have finished before dark. I used a product from the Magnet Paints company called "Chassis Saver" in the "Antique Satin Black" color. It's a rust encapsulating paint (just like POR-15) that I've used several times before. It's a great product and it's CHEAPER than POR-15. If you buy it from their EBAY store instead of their website you can get a free item with your purchase. I got 1 gallon of paint AND a free quart of the same paint for less than the price of 1 gallon as listed on their actual website. So if you decide to try it, look it up on EBAY to purchase!

The painting took all day as this rust paint stuff needs quite a bit of dry time between coats depending on humidity. Humidity was low here so it took quite a while. I ended up doing two coats which is what the instructions recommend. It also took longer because I used brushes. You can spray it if you have the equipment to do so but I do not. You have to be careful not to put it on too heavy though. If it pools or drips anywhere, those places will bubble when drying. I had some bubbling on mine because it was almost dark when I finished and at that point I couldn't see very well. The paint won't peel or flake off if it bubbles, it just looks kind of funny. It wasn't too bad and it's not like it matters anyway. No one is ever going to see it but me.

I painted everything black. I was told that the brake backing plates were black in '52 and I did see a lot of original black paint on them under the crud layer so I think that is correct. The only thing I'm not sure about is the front cover on the axle. 1957buickjim showed me some pictures of his and his front cover is painted a reddish color. When I scraped and degreased mine I did notice some red paint on mine but I thought it was just primer under the black. After seeing Jim's, now I'm not so sure. I might be going back to paint that thing reddish color. Does anyone know anything about it? I'll include a picture Jim posted showing his for comparison.

P.S. I got my Dad this card for his birthday, Nov. 9. He turns 50 this year even though he swears it's 49. Too bad it's not a Buick but still a pretty good card. Guess we have something in common there because I'm turning 30 this year (Nov. 12) and I'll swear to anyone that asks it's 29! :cool:

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Edited by shadetree77 (see edit history)
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Guest shadetree77

As far as I know Chris. I installed it exactly as it came off. 2 o'clock position? That seems like it would be awfully high being that you're normally supposed to fill the axle to the bottom of the plug hole with fluid. Maybe it was different in '54 but that seems like an awful lot of fluid would be in your axle if you filled it up to that point.

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Robert,

Not sure about when, but all research that I have seen shows that the front diff between the torque tube and the rear axle is that crazy red oxide color. Now, just to let you know, everything was painted black at some point, with usually a dip coat or a light spray wash of a thin black paint, either at the factory or at the supplier. The one thing that I like is that the multi-color rear-axle/torque tube assembly looks pretty cool in the colors that they would be if they were not washed with the black paint. From what I gather, either is correct for judging, it is really about keeping it clean. Brake backing plates were most likely in the early 50's Buicks silver cad plated (clear) and the rear axle was the black/red oxide primer configuration. It just adds some detail to an otherwise non-descript set of parts on the greasy side of the car. Just my thoughts on it. Yours looks great, eitherway! Keep up the good work!

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Robert;

I can't remember where the filler plug is on my cars, and I'm not near them to go look right now. I had a leaf through the '51 Buick shop manual I have, but could see any illustrations that indicates where the filler plug is, though it does state that the capacity is 3 1/2 pints, so as long as you put close to the correct amount in, you'll be fine.

Also, nice looking work there!

Keith

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Guest shadetree77

Jim, thanks for the info. I guess since everything was coated in black at one point I'll just leave it for now. I think it looks good either way.

Keith, thanks for checking the '51 manual for me. I looked through my '52 manual as well and I couldn't find a picture either. It has to be in the right position though. Like Willie said, it has a relief for the ring gear and it can only go on one way. Perhaps they moved the filler plug position around through the years. Chris said his is way up at the 2 o'clock position. It still seems like that would be pretty high up on the axle for a drain plug but you never know. I didn't measure the oil exactly but I know I put a whole quart and a little over half of another which would be about right as there are 2 pints in a quart. I filled it up til it just touched the bottom threads of the filler plug hole.

Next thing on the list is to get under the car and scrub, scrub, and scrub some more. I'm really not looking forward to this part! It's filthy under there. Giant blobs of grease that have hardened into concrete-like formations, flaking rust, and MUD. Bright red-orange Georgia mud, EVERYWHERE. I received a birthday card in the mail from my Grandmother today. It included a birthday money order as well. Just enough to buy my new brake lines.:) By the way, I think I have decided to take a chance on the pre-made sets for sale on EBAY. The seller is one I've bought from before and the company has a LOT of positive feedback on these brake line sets. They aren't pre-bent like the ones from Inline Tube but they are under half the price of the Inline Tube sets. Price is definitely a factor in my decision and if I had the money I would be buying the Inline Tube set as recommended by quite a few of you guys. Anyway, the EBAY sets supposedly come in pre-cut lengths (with a little extra for DIY bending) with all correct fasteners attached and everything already flared. I figured up the cost of just going to an auto parts store and buying all of my own tubing and fasteners and believe it or not, the EBAY set is cheaper. Tubing nuts and related fasteners have gone up in price a lot for some reason. I've had good luck with EBAY sellers for many years. Let's just hope I don't strike out on this one.

Edited by shadetree77 (see edit history)
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. . . . . Perhaps they moved the filler plug position around through the years. Chris said his is way up at the 2 o'clock position. It still seems like that would be pretty high up on the axle for a drain plug but you never know. I didn't measure the oil exactly but I know I put a whole quart and a little over half of another which would be about right as there are 2 pints in a quart. I filled it up til it just touched the bottom threads of the filler plug hole . . . . .

You might have an early 1952 axle housing cover.

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I still owe you a response re: my Post #439. I'm working on it.

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

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Guest shadetree77

Hmmmm....interesting info. Al. Thanks for digging that up. I guess if I ever see one with the higher plug for sale I'll buy it and put it on there. I don't think it's that big of a deal though. The original has lasted for 64,000 miles now and the gears in there look like they're in perfect shape. Still wouldn't hurt to add the other cover if I ever see one though.

Chris, thanks for catching this difference. I always like learning about the little design changes like this. I find all of the little engineering changes between the years interesting.

Keith, that's good to hear. I know they have a lot of positive feedback on their seller account for these brake line kits. I think the seller was GMOLDTIMEPARTS or some such name. I think he has several seller names on there. I don't really mind flaring lines though. It's mostly a cost issue at this point. Going with the pre-made lines was cheaper than buying all the parts to make my own.

EDIT: Upon further investigation it looks like the EBAY seller also has a website where they do the majority of their business. The name of the business is "Jackson's Old Time Parts" and they've been in business since 1943. Seems they carry all manner of parts for various vehicles from the 1920's-1980's. I'll include a link if anyone would like to check it out. To get to the actual store, click on "Shopping Cart" on the left hand side of the page.

Jackson's Old Time Parts : The Best In Mechanical Wearing parts for all Cars

Edited by shadetree77 (see edit history)
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Guest shadetree77

Another long weekend resulting in sore arms and a sore back for me and my Dad! We wire brushed and scraped the entire underside of the car. We sprayed it down with degreaser and rinsed three times. The third time we got under there with scrub brushes to make sure everything was clean. We were soaking wet and tired at the end of it all but it had to be done. The car will have all week to dry out and we are planning to sling some paint next weekend. I really wish I had a way to spray the paint. Doing the entire underside with brushes is going to be a major undertaking.

By the way, after further inspection I have decided that my car was originally painted in a simliar fashion to the other Buicks here on the forum. The frame was black and the underbody of the car was red oxide primer with body color overspray. I could find no evidence on the underbody of ANY black paint. The area under the gas tank (as well as several other spots) is not rusted at all and it is painted red oxide color. I am going to paint EVERYTHING with the black rust paint to stop the rust in its tracks and then go back at some point and mask off the frame and spray some oxide paint on the body. I'll probably just use rattle cans for the oxide coat. The rust paint can be top coated so it should work. Here's a shot of the underside after being wire brushed and degreased and one of my Dad hard at work rinsing.

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Guest 56BuickSuper

If it were me doing all of this difficult work, I would give everything a good coat of the black rust inhibitor paint and be done with it. Why take the time and expense to mask and add red oxide primer once you have a good coat on everything. If you ever decide at some point to make this a 400 point restoration that would be when to consider leaving the under body in primer since you would have the body off of the frame at that time. Adding primer now is just an additional expense that really serves no real purpose. Is anyone going to look under there and be disappointed because there is no primer, will the addition of primer add to the protection? Save the additional time and expense for the tranny, or the next part that needs attention would be my advice. You have done wonders with your car and "shade tree" approach, keep up the great work. Looks like you may need a few cans of primer when you decide to tackle the body work.

All The Best

Dan

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I painted everything black. ... 1957buickjim showed me some pictures of his and his front cover is painted a reddish color. .... After seeing Jim's, now I'm not so sure. :cool:

It is tough to keep up with 1957BuickJim. But your's looks pretty good to me. As far as the undercariage, I would definitely paint it red oxide over the rust encapsulator. You have it wide open now, and very clean too. Do it once, and do it right. You won't be kicking yourself after the topside is painted.

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Guest shadetree77

Dorsey, lol, it does look like he's fully prepared to deal with a chemical spill doesn't it? We suited up in some painters coveralls with a face shield to keep that nasty degreaser off of us. Not to mention a failed attempt to keep dry. You should have seen me when we were wire brushing! I had goggles and a respirator on (didn't want to breath in rust or lead dust). I looked like I belonged in a nuclear power plant. :P As for doing yours, I don't know about all that. This wasn't a fun job and I don't think I'll be doing it again anytime soon. At least not for free. ;) By the way, I don't know if you are in the BCA or not but your oil pan pictures are in this months Buick Bugle. Thanks again for letting me use them with my article.

Willie, I might grab a roller when I go to buy more brushes. Although last time I tried to use a roller on metal it kept putting tiny bubbles in the paint. I don't know if it was the paint or the roller or the painter.:P

4bufords, not that I know of. Even if I could find one I don't know if I could afford to rent it. I called a rental place a few days ago about renting a simple, small pressure washer and they wanted $77 a day!! I was flabbergasted!

Chris, thanks my man. A lot of elbow grease was required for that job. It was not an easy thing to get to every single nook and cranny under there!

Dan, John, chevy_dude, Thanks for the advice. While I do see your point Dan, I also feel strongly about only having to do everything once. I really don't want to have to remove all of this stuff down the road to finish it up. Everything is out and the underside of the car is easily accessible. While doing the oxide primer coat will add a little expense to the job, I don't think it will be that much. I can buy a case of rattle cans for around $30 or less. I already have masking tape and lots of newspapers. Not only that but it's going to be several months before I can take the transmission to get it rebuilt so doing finishing touches like this will give me something to do while I wait. I don't mind the extra effort and time. I enjoy every minute working on my Buick. Thanks for the kind words and I'll be sure to keep on keepin' on. Hopefully, by the time I'm ready for body work I'll have a better compressor and a paint gun! No rattle cans required. :)

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The main problem that I see with painting actual red primer overtop of your rust inhibitor paint is that Rustoleum and other primers aren't rustproof and actually absorb moisture. Even though you saw my undercar red, that is epoxy primer (read: highly water resistant). Plus nobody can really see it when judging. My 55 Special got a Senior without any of the details I am putting into my convertible. Everything was black. Backing plates, torque tube, front suspension, etc. It needs to be clean more than anything.

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Guest shadetree77

Mike, I have heard about the moisture problem with that kind of paint. My logic on the matter was that the rattle can paint will be sitting on top of a THICK layer of impenetrable rust encapsulating paint (similar to POR-15). I was thinking that the layer of POR-15-like paint would keep any moisture absorbed by the rattle can stuff from actually doing any damage to the metal. In effect, even if the spray paint absorbed moisture, it couldn't go anywhere near my sheet metal. Does that make sense or is there a flaw in that logic?

Got my brake line set in the mail today. Everything looks good. It should work out just fine. The lines have a copper core just like the seller told me. I can't say I've ever seen a brake line with a copper core but it seems like a good idea to me. With a copper core, even if the steel part rusted away, the copper would not allow your brake line to leak. At least, I guess that's how it works. The kit came with everything I needed. Some lines will have to be coupled as they are a little shorter than the stock lines but the kit came with the necessary couplers and extra lengths of line. The only thing I didn't like was that it was shipped in a plain old box with no supports inside. The box was bent in a few places during shipping. Seems to me they should be shipped in a hard tube. I'll know more about the quality when I actually put them on the car.

Not much else to report. I've been working on getting all of the little parts ready for paint the last few days. Assorted brackets, trans. dip stick tube, etc. As of now the plan is to paint today if the weather holds out. My arms are aching just thinking about it. We got almost all of the small parts wire brushed, sanded (where needed), and degreased yesterday. We also taped off the chrome side trim where it bolts to the bottom and masked off the muffler and exhaust pipes. Everything is layed out and ready to go for this morning.

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No flaw to your logic, my man. I just don't think it is really necessary. Seriously, take a knee and see if you notice that it is black vs. red. We make a bigger deal here on the forum than the judges do about "proper" from-the-factory color of the underside of your car. Trust me. Just call it "over restored". People paint the underside in all manners when restoring their cars. Body color. Black. Red oxide. Etc.

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if you do use a roller when painting try a mini or cigar roller with a nap skin not foam-there about 6 inches x 1 inch-work good in tight areas-you should be able to get same rattle can paint in quart or gallon.for quick coverup wrap non painting odd areas with aluminum foil.good luck.t.nugent roa 12969.

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Guest shadetree77

It was a busy and productive weekend here at 2 Rob's garage! We got the underside painted. It took two 9 hour days to paint with brushes. We did half the car one day and the other half the next. Each side received two coats of paint. That was a TOUGH job and we're going to be feeling that one for at least a week! It was really hard to get the brushes into some of the tight spots. I inspected our work today and I have to get a small brush and do some touch ups in a few areas. Nothing major. I think it came out pretty good. Too bad nobody is ever going to see it. I also got quite a few various parts painted in between the underside coats (recoat time is 3-6 hours depending on humidity).

I should have gotten some rest today (Sunday) but I watched a show this morning called "Search and Restore" on my DVR where they were working on a '51 Hudson and the next thing I knew I was in my shop with dirty hands. Subliminal messages maybe?? Anyway, I took Willie's (and others) advice and drilled a drain hole in my torque tube. I tapped it and put in an allen head pipe plug. There was some transmission fluid in the tube. I'm guessing around a pint or so poured out.

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Guest chevy_dude97

Nice work, that paint looks excellent for being brushed on. Very true on the too bad no one will ever see it, maybe you can take it to get an alignment and bask in the compliments of how clean under your car is.... :cool:

I understand the fluid can create a unbalanced driveshaft.

I was unaware the shaft was balanced to begin with.

Edited by chevy_dude97 (see edit history)
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Nice work, that paint looks excellent for being brushed on. Very true on the too bad no one will ever see it, maybe you can take it to get an alignment and bask in the compliments of how clean under your car is.... :cool:

I was unaware the shaft was balanced to begin with.

Im not sure if it is in the 52 but my manual states for a 54 that oil present on the balanced propellar shaft can cause vibrations.

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Guest chevy_dude97

I do not dissagree with the fluid presence causing ill performance.(vibration,poor fuel economy, less torque to the rear wheels)

I was just unaware of any balancing done to the shaft it self(not even my 96 SS came with a balanced drive shaft). I would not put it past them however given the ammount of over engineering that went into these vehicles.

I will most likely be installing one of these "drain plugs" in mine soon as I get her back on the road. I cannot imagine the amount of tourque robbing rotational mass thats added with a full pint of fluid(who knows in mine). Not to mention any thermal expansion pressure added to the seals.(in an area that is sapposed to be dry?)

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