BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well I decided to dig out some photographs and have a look again. I apologize for me posting a picture of an old picture but I believe they are good enough where we can tell by the surroundings that these pictures are indeed old. There are a few differences between the chassis in the picture vs. the one I have, and the wheels are different too. I can only imagine these are old promo pictures where someone was using these to raise capitol for their new car manufacturing venture and they were taking these pictures around showing to potential investors. If you look in the pictures, you will see they actually tipped the chassis on its side setting (balanced) on the floor. Look at how the chain is drooping. Notice the radiator shape and the hoses. Again, I have no idea when these pictures were taken but based on the steering wheel location, the single chain drive, friction drive transmission and the high hard-rubber wheels, -I tend to think it fits within the era of 1908 or so. (Kinda glad I dug these pix out as I am all excited again.)

Well, you both are possibly correct however I believe someone told me that all friction-drive Lamberts were dual chain drive. As for the radiator hose situation, I believe if you look at a 1909 Hupmobile, you will see a strong similarity, and I have something else that may confirm it is correct. Also, the family was able to give me some chassis photos from the deceased that I think are definitely old. If they are a re-created photograph, someone went way beyond photoshopping. As I understand it, this vehicle was restored sometime in the mid to late 1950s. I have not viewed the pictures in several years now but as I remember them, the picture is taken in a garage or small factory with the car laid up on it side and this has highwheeler wheels on it. The radiator and engine is the same as is the chassis to what I have, ...and I think it shows it definitely not a made-up car from swap meet pieces. My honest opinion is this was an attempt by a small start-up auto manufacturer as one of their first cars and they just purchased parts to assemble a prototype. Again, I cannot prove this however when you look at many of the details, it just has the look of being in the 1908-ish era with the chain drive, RH drive, open valve etc.. The other thing that makes me wanna believe this timeframe is this. One very unique item on this chassis is the engine is VERY similar to the 1909 Hupmobile Model 20 engine ...with the exception of the crankshaft, the flywheel, and the cast aluminum crankcase most notibly where the Hup transmission would mount. The flywheel is on the opposite end, and the crank is a different length and configuration. So is this the biggest clue? Hup began in 1908 and likely did not have the funding for engine tooling, so did G B & S build this engine and then sell the rights to Hupmobile for use in their Model 20? It is highly unlikely that someone like Hup would have cast a different crankcase and made a different crankshaft for their Model 20 engine just to sell to a competitor for their use, -and it is unlikely that G B & S would have copied Hup's design that closely to market for themselves without getting into piracy issues. Notice in my pictures posted above the cast bronze covers that has the G B & S. letters embossed on it. So as you can tell, this one has been a mystery, and I have shown it to more than a handful of brass guys in person and they all are just as stumped as I on ID-ing it. I have even thought about registering it as a Sine-Nomine and putting a brass S-N on the radiator. At least with a title, I could feel good about beginning a restoration!

I totally understand and concur with your thoughts however while I cannot go into specific details, suffice it to say that sometimes things happen to an owner -and the heirs cannot agree with one another and so something sits 'abandoned' until it falls into such a state. The vehicle is in my possession now out of the weather, however I am unsure of the future. Ironically since this topic has resurfaced I will offer a little update. The biggest issue I have encoutered is for the 'legal system' to recognize this as an automobile, you need some way to positively identify it. Additionally as I understand it, you need some form of serial number or identifying data plate to specifically identify this vehicle as far as the courts or DMV, and an insurer is concerned. Otherwise in their eyes it is nothing more than an assembled vehicle subject to current year model laws. Adding to the confusion for the DMV, I feel confident in agreeing it was an "assembled vehicle" -as we all know that many other pre-teen vehicles were, however that does not help the titling dilemma. So the bottom-line is, I would restore it and tour with it if I even knew a manufacturer to list it as, but without a identifiable vehicle title to show ownership, -and a legal way to insure the vehicle, I am not sure I want to sink $40k-$50k into the restoration just to call it garage art.

I guess it is possible. It sure seems like someone went to a huge amount of work just for a movie prop though. If so, why do you suppose they went to the trouble to use an open valve engine and a friction drive transmission and or chain drive rear end?? When you look closely at the frame, it seems like every bracket was cast or stamped to do the purpose in which it is doing. Almost every bracket is riveted to the frame too. Definitely a puzzler!

BTTT. Has anyone found an operational manual to one of these now? FWIW, I would pay the $41 for a manual (-or ice copy) to the 3001.

Can you send me your contact info? Send it to brent@btvintageauto.com please.

How close does it need to be? There are folks coming from Texas, Missouri, Kansas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Delaware, and other states too. The last I checked, Virginia still adjoins Tennessee, ... and my shop is only 20 miles or so across the Virginia line. Surely you can reconsider and come partake. (While you're here, we'll look at a '31 Chev Landau Phaeton, an unrestored '32 Chev Four door with original paint getting a mechanical restoration, -and might even discuss some wood coachcrafting on Chevies. )

Marv, does Part Number: 5949037 cross to anything you have??

Thanks Marv, but I don't at this time. I may try to see if I can find someone who would have that for you. I appreciate your reply.

Looking to purchase Left Tail Light Lens for 1958 Buick Roadmaster-door Model 75. Thanks!! (Pictures below of the lens needed)

Bob, FWIW, I received a private message that said on the past several tours, the Reliability tour has been held in conjunction with the Horseless Carriage Club of America, and as long as the engine and driveline were all HCCA eligible, then participation on the Reliability Tour should be acceptable. I also agree there are rules, and why have them if they are not going to be followed. Granted there are many that have clearly not followed those rules in the past, but that does not make ok for the future. Adding to this thought, the running gear seen above will probably be on the Reliability Tour this summer however it will have the original body back on it by then as this speedster body was built by my son in a few evenings as he wanted to drive a speedster on a few tours while the Touring body was being re-wooded, repainted, and reupholstered.

Great point. Is AACA “recognized” and “eligible” the same thing or different??

Using the car pictured below as an example, what determines eligibility for a vehicle to participate on an AACA Reliability Tour? Naturally someone just calling it a 'Pre-1916' does not make it so, ...and so often a Speedster's mechanical parts are not the most pure-bred either, so what specifically is the minimum standard/level of parts that makes it acceptable in AACA's eyes? (Here is a video that might show a little more detail of the car) https://youtu.be/vYZ8uQ0VkiA

I also find this entire topic very interesting -and although I am generally a lurker here, if I may I would like to offer my thoughts on a comment or two from above. I concur with Mr. Hammers on several of his comments, -and although I don’t know all the facts from both sides of the Impala restoration, I don’t believe I would have been interested in consummating or continuing a business relationship either based on the owner's demands as they were stated above. FWIW, I often have potential clients ask me for business references and personal recommendations from former clients. I gladly do so however some potential clients are so detailed in their qualifying efforts that they almost go to the point of asking me for a P&L statement and my last three years of tax returns. Naturally my analogy is tongue in cheek however I have often wondered if I were to ask them for references on themselves including financial statements, how would they respond! THAT would be an interesting switch!! I understand some folk's feelings or recommendation about not paying the shop any money up front, however please allow me to share 3 circumstances that quantify my reasoning for now requiring my customer to pay a fee upfront. My first incident happened about 20 years ago when I was just getting started professionally. This was either my 3rd or 4th project and everything this man wanted I was willing to do. It was a ’31 Chev. Coach and the engine was supposedly rebuilt already but I was to disassemble and detail the chassis, media-strip the paint and bodywork & paint all the sheetmetal, and put a Hampton interior in it. Again, this has been awhile ago but his budget was something like $15k and I was a one-man army charging about $20 an hour. So I get everything disassembled (-and naturally found hidden issues) and then I found the deteriorated wood behind the original upholstery that he told me would not need to be replaced. Lacking prudent judgment on my part, he & I had made an agreement that when I had completed 1/3rd of the work, he would come inspect it and I would get my first progress payment. That time finally came and there was always an excuse of why he could not inspect or pay at that time. As it turned out, the engine had not been rebuilt as he initially indicated, and so on his approval I had sub-ed out some engine machine work. About this same time their work was completed and they wanted their money, ...and long story short, the owner finally told me just to keep the car. Now I had about $6k of my work invested in a car that would likely only have brought 3k-4k back then as a total basket case. And, I needed my money worse than I needed a two-door Chevrolet that was now sans an engine. This one hurt however not enough that I would learn my lesson. Next scenario, I had a Model-A pick-up in the shop that we were restoring, and we had finished all of the metalwork (-and it was rough!!). We also had the cab & doors bodyworked and in paint, and was partially complete on rebuilding the running gear. I had about $10k invested and had invoiced the client requesting a progress payment. Approximately two weeks after invoicing him, Hurricane Katrina slammed New Orleans and in one night my client and his wife both lost their places of employment, and they lost their home and all belongings to wind & water. Probably a month goes by and he calls explaining the situation. He tells me he does not have the money to pay me and could I wait for a few months until he can get back onto his feet with insurance settlement, etc. I did like any of y’all would have done and sympathetically said “Sure” even though I needed the money to make payroll, pay bills, etc. Unfortunately a couple of months turned into a couple of years, and I finally was able to track him down out in Colorado. We talked by phone and he said he was finally making some headway and was planning to give me a call. We make some arrangements for progress payments to begin however after a few months of them not arriving I called him at his place of employment to learn he had been released shortly after our conversation. To this day, I have no idea where he is, nor could I even sell his pile of parts for enough to even begin recouping the money he owes. The 3rd and final straw was a man from NJ that inherited his father’s roadster along with a sizeable inheritance. He wanted it totally restored and had it shipped to me along with a $3k check to get started. We dismantled the vehicle completely, did a sizeable amount of sheetmetal work, and was doing bodywork and component restoration. I invoiced him when we reached $5k owed however we kept on working on the car. The excuses he gave were all legitimate as to why he had been tardy on forwarding a progress payment so we kept on going until we reached the $10k mark which at that time I halted the project. A few more weeks go by and then I get a phone call from him telling me he had changed his mind on the project and was cutting his losses. He told me he was now going to use the inheritance money to buy a motorhome for him and his girlfriend to travel in, and that I could just keep the car. I explained to him I didn’t want the car and that I wanted the money instead. He told me to sell the car and keep all the money. The same situation as above in that a dismantled vehicle won’t bring enough to pay the invoice amount. I spoke with an attorney and the costs were too great for the risk I would take in hoping to collect the outstanding amount. Lesson finally learned. THAT in a nutshell is why I now work on a ‘declining balance’ accounting system with my clients where I require an upfront payment. The risks are just too great to take a chance on something happening to the client, -or them just changing their mind that leaves me hanging. Naturally I understand the customer’s fear in this however I trust you also understand the fear from the shop owner perspective, and the crippling effect it can have. Ohh and to answer the O/P question, in my shop many circumstances vary the timeline but generally 1½ years on average.

Lets bring this thread up out of the dungeon for another go of it. Any thoughts now? Going a different direction, lets assume I restored the car and want to register it for a show or tour, ....what name do I list on the application then?? (The old car with dementia that cannot remember what its name is!!)