Vintman

Hi Folks, We have been recently sent a photo and asked to identify make of a multi cylinder 'special' racer. None of our experts have come up with any ideas apart from that the background is not likely UK, possibly Germany or France. Car is likely to be aero engine powered so Maybach or Mercedes or French zeppelin engines? Any thoughts on what it could be? I have slightly lightened the photo to see more detail. Note that the back has a 'sports car' type arrangement rather than the usual tapered pointed back. Very individual radiator grille which reminds me of something? Regards Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

Am a bit concerned with the identification and dating of this car, which was suggested as a 1913 Delaunay-Belleville O6 45/50. While the photo may have been taken in c1913 I am relatively sure the car is probably some six year younger. The bonnet extends to the windscreen without any scuttle, the bonnet is multi-corrugated, the vehicle is chain drive and has dished rear wheel. From observation, Delaunay Bellville dropped the corrugated type bonnet around end of 1907. Thereafter for quite a period the bonnet meatal was flat, even no louvres. If the photo is of the biggest of the range at the time, then it would have been a cca 1906/7 Delaunay Belleville 40HP four, but size-wise it may even possibly be the marginally smaller 24HP Four.

'Flying’ comes from having the British flag emblem upright at the top of the waterfall grille. 0rginal engine 1608 cc and body by Mulliners

Probably a cca 1938 Standard Flying 12 Drophead Coupe

Seems a normalish British Standard. Will investigate model

In one of the recent posts relative to an Itala, it was mentioned that the photo had been from the collection of UKs late Tim Harding, author and auto historian. I just happened to be going through one of his books on another subject and came across this which may enhance the subject. Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

1954 Mercury XM800 fibreglass prototype used by Ford at major car shows in 1954

Had as go at repairing photo to have a better look at it. Now relatively confident that this is an Italian 'Officine Meccaniche' cca 1926 OM Tippo 665S Torpedo Tourer with a six cylinder engine of 2L. This type of car won class at Le Mans by filling all first five places and subsequently won the first Mile Miglia. Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

Thanks for confirmation. Tim Harding was a personal friend of mine and member of the Surrey Vintage vehicle Society of which I was Chairman. Very knowledgeable chap and author of number of books on vintage and veteran cars. He often helped with our SVVS Help Pages svvs.org/help199.shtml . I would rarely question any of his identifications. He had a vey extensive collection of photos and worked closely with another guru Bryan Goodman, another collector/author/member, both regretfully now deceased and collections sold. Ariejan Bos was closely involved with both collections. Regards Bozi Mohacek aka Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

Immediate impression is that it is not a British car. First thoughts are Italian or Teutonic. Both had smaller sidelights below headlamps. Headlamps do not look British and neither does the numberplate. Large white oval nameplate on the radiator top. Needs more looking into. OM comes to mind. Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

A number of pointers suggest this could be a British registered car. I note the AA signs on the radiator cap and just a bit of a British looking numberplate on the radiator. The circular air vent on side is also very British as are the wheel discs. At first glance it reminded me of a British Calthorpe except for the actual rad, which seems to have a trace of the Itala logo. In fact close examination of the two photos suggested both could indeed be Italas, one being an uprate modernised version of the other. What occured to me was that they could actually be the same car, the rounded mudguards being a later modernisation with the bonnet and windscreen? Change from RAC to AA from badges on madcap. Rear door reversed, handles removed, and leather door cappings enlarged. But would it have been worth the while? So I asked our venerable ‘veteran’ guru Ariejan Bos in Holland who immeduiately came back with the following comment: "The boy in the back of the car has the typical British school cap, so I have little doubt that both photos were taken in the UK. Both photos on the AACA site were part of the Tim Harding auction last November. This already indicates that they are both British Italas, as Tim collected only postcards and photos within UK. This photo of is indeed Itala, but difficult to name the exact model. I suppose both cars are 1912 or 1913 at its latest, because in 1913 the radiator shape changed to more rounded at the top. The car could have received a body refurbishment regarding its very rounded mudguards and disc wheels. But still acetyleen headlights, so probably just before the war or slightly later. As for your suggestion that they are the same car: that seems unlikely. The car with the top up is fully electric, but is in my opinion the 'older' one. The other, which would be the younger one having more modern body features, has acetylene lights, which would have been a step back." Regards Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

This does appear to be an Itala. It seems to have the curly Itala logo rather than the later plain oval. It has electric lights suggesting earliest cca 1913. It seems to have a quite long bonnet so is relatively powerful. Wings with splashguards suggest pre-war as do the electric headlamps. My suggestion for the year is cca 1913'14. They made 11 different sizes of models in that year with only marginally small differences in specifications, so any guess could be out, - best guess is 35'45 but probably the 50'65. Radiator surrounds became curved soon after and no cars were made WW1.

This is getting complicated! I think this could be the very same car as covered by your subsequent enquiry with two Model T photos. I think the original car is shown on this photo and would have approximately the right age registration at FR 2231. Front mudguard has reinforcing and a bill, and the rear is curved, so I think this is probably a 1914+ car. UK Trade plates of the era had aa bb 11 sequence and not the normal sequence. I think this vehicle was then updated with the external centre parts of a post cca 1918 Model T. Regards Vintman. (UK) www.svvs.org

Am I also right in assuming that the car has a post 1916 bonnet top and scuttle, but a mismatched pre 1916 squared radiator? Seems an upright 50/50 windscreen and kerosene sidelamps. So presumably car has to be 1917+ Regards Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org

This seems to be Ford TT Truck. It might have been perhaps a bit helpful if the registration was clearer. It looks to have letter TR or FR and 3 or 4 numerals. TR was Southampton CBC but FR was Blackpool CBC. Unfortunately it seems the dating data for Blackpool numbers before 2785 has been lost. 2785 was in 1921. So dating from the registration will not be possible. Sidelights would have been mandatory in UK so probably fitted on arrival