To Stay a Classic or Not Stay a Classic, That is The Question!

[1948Lincoln]

I have always felt that a car should stay original
(within reason, replacing non-working parts,etc.) and not be chopped up, 350'ed or anything else, I have always felt that it would be like me breaking into the national archives and stealing the Constitution and scratching out words and making revisions in the margins and changing it as I see fit. TELL ME YOUR OPINION!

[BJM]

Oh Wes,

This topic has certainly been addressed a lot over the years.

Being an old car forum - as far as I know the AACA forum does not have a heading titled "Modified / Hot Rod / Rat Rod" (yet) - most response are going to be glad hand responses to "keep it original".

In truth hot rodding/street rodding is probably a bigger business in America now then doing cars original.

Virtually all "project" cars on ebay are marketed to turn them into a "hot rod/rat rod". Also, many respondents to this question will note that some degree of modification occurs on virtually every car restored. Unless a person has serious money (the CCCA crowd)

Finally, that question alone can be the basis for hot discussion. Whether modern paints, your choice of paint color, whether you change a car to a leather interior from clothe, put aluminum heads on your V12, bore it out, etc etc - all topics that draw comments on this subject.

[Bhigdog]

When I was a kid all I wanted to do was "hop up" and "customize" my car. I still cringe when I think of my first car, a 41 Merc convert, and my second car, a 54 Ford Victoria, and what I did to those poor beautiful cars. Now when I go to a show and see the "rods" I find I have exactly ZERO interest in them. I can appreciate the engineering and workmanship that went into a few of them, but the largest percentage are just an ill designed, boogered up, mess of a nice original car.
I certainly agree that a person can do whatever he wants with his own car, I just wish they wouldn't do it...Bob

[michel88]

The sad thing is that many nice original and even AACA show winning restored cars are being "rodded" by individuals with more money than taste. These days with reproduction bodys you would think the nice originals would be spared, but this is not the case. Hot Rodders are trying to out do each other with who can destroy the most unusual true classic Packard, Lincoln, or other fine car. I have even seen a customized Packard Darrin and a Continental Mark II!

[imported_Pontiac59]

These days, the hot rodders have more money than brains, so they can afford to start with the nice original cars.

I have no issue with a guy personalizing his '40 Ford or '55 Chevy that they made tens of thousands of all alike, but some cars don't need to be personalized - a Packard Darrin, Cord, Duesenberg, etc. -

And I have noted resale prices tend to be higher on well done rodded vehicles. A clean restored original '50 Ford woodie is worth around $30K. A well done rod, I've seen for sale with asking prices as high as $65K. Just one example; compare older restored Model As to hot rodded cars for another one.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I think some of it also depends on the car itself. I think all of us would agree that it is better to save a (for example) 1950 Buick 4 door that they made a lot of by making into a rod then letting it go to the crusher.At least this way it will get driven.

I am not a big fan of Boyd's version of saving the car, but I have no problems with taking a clapped out car with a bad motor and making a street rod out of it. I do however have issues with taking a nicely done original car and rodding it.

[Dave@Moon]

Quote:

Being an old car forum - as far as I know the AACA forum does not have a heading titled "Modified / Hot Rod / Rat Rod" (yet) - most response are going to be glad hand responses to "keep it original".

Any constructive conversation about this topic will be centered not on what's being done to the country's supply of rare/old cars, but why it's being done (instead of what most of us would like to see happen).

[BJM]

I'm not sure I understand dave. As my point was simply that in a different context, say a "Goodguys Forum" - then probably 80% of respondents would say "it's an individual choice" or "HOT ROD em' all" whereas here, no matter how sincere, 80% of us believe keeping vehicles original is the way to go.

It's been my experience that there are still thousands of projects out there for both groups and it's a non topic. However, the extreme cost of restoration or hot rodding is causing many cars to stay in non running project condition. Just an observation.

I am growing to appreciate a good street rod as a work of art. It's one individual's interpretation of a "neat old car" and I just marvel at them. It's not my choice, but I don't see a lot of original/restored guys buying the full-on non CCCA classics out there and pouring $25,000 to $50,000 into them.

I thought about creating a new post titled "Who's doing a Project Car this Winter" just to see how many folks on the forum are undertaking this hard but rewarding task in the hobby.

[Jan Arnett]

I still have a 1933 Ply. Coupe which I built in 1962 with a Chrysler Hemi Engine. When I bought the coupe it was a shell with no frame or interior. It had sat in a creek and the rockers were gone. I chopped it, sectioned it and channeled up over a Model A frame. I learned to build an engine, do metal work, paint and all the rest of things you learn. Everything on the car came from a junk yard or field and I learned a lot. I have built model T speedsters and a Model A speedster out of left overs. I would never taken a restorable car and roded it but there are bodies or frames which a non restorable and I will build a speedster out of them. You can buy everything new to build a rod and I have nothing against that. I have a fully restored 1916 T, 1923 Moon under restoration, 1924 Star under restoration and a 1923 Dodge. I would not rod any of them. Have a nice day.

[Car Medic]

I am new here and searching for answers to this same debate right now. Can you guys shed some light on how much of a rare thing I have here?

My dad has a '53 Chevy Truck that we are getting ready to start restoring. This truck was wrecked and parked in the garage in '61. Should I stay all original-since this girl is only 8 years old at heart with 50k miles and no rust or significant wear? Am I sitting on a gold mine that would be criminal to go anything but stock?

Thanks

[Restorer32]

No, you are not sitting on a gold mine. Yes, it would be criminal to screw it up.

[BJM]

Car Medic,

The "Advanced Design" Chevrolet truck built from 1947 to 1954 is very common and very well supported by an active aftermarket. You can even get a brand new (Yes, really) truck if all you have is the frame. they build complete cabs, beds, everything.

These trucks are also commonly rodded. I had a 1950 GMC project that I gave up on (stupid!) and the fellow that bought it was going to put a SB Chevy in it.

So, it's entirely up to you, but these trucks are not rare. they are desirable and prices for nicely finished originals or rodded ones command $12,000 to $18,000 typically.

[Dave@Moon]

Quote:

I'm not sure I understand dave.....

It's been my experience that there are still thousands of projects out there for both groups and it's a non topic. However, the extreme cost of restoration or hot rodding is causing many cars to stay in non running project condition. Just an observation.....

....It's not my choice, but I don't see a lot of original/restored guys buying the full-on non CCCA classics out there and pouring $25,000 to $50,000 into them.

It's not a non-topic. One group can buy the final products of the other and create their final product in an irreversible process that is cheaper than any scratch restoration/project. It's becomming commonplace for cars rare and common. As long as that's the case you're going to "observe" "many (restoration project) cars to stay in non running project condition". Why pay $35K to build your dream '34 Huppmobile rod out of a "project car" when you can buy a 99 point restoration and rod it for a net investment that's half of that after you part it out.

Meanwhile the guy who spent twice that amount to correctly restore the Huppmobile in the first place likely did so by exhausting the supply of parts to build the car properly. The spare parts carved off and sold by the rodder gutting the restoration may or may not be purchased by the next guy dumb enough to do a restoration of another authentic car that won't last either, if it there's enough stuff left to make one and if there's another one left to restore.

It doesn't take a genius to see where this process is going.

Pining about the situation does nothing to change it. Doing something about why so many people view perfectly restored '34 Huppmobiles (or '63 Thunderrbirds, Jaguar XKEs, etc.) as feed material to another process is the better conversation. That is my point.

[Restorer32]

Can anyone actually document a 99 point restored Full Classic that has been bought in fully restored condition and then rodded? I hear of these cars all the time but have never actually seen before and after pics of one. I have noticed the virtually endless supply of "started but never completed" streetrod projects on E-Bay that seldom seem to bring much money. Just looking for verifiable facts rather than conjecture. There was a fellow on here a whlie back who was parting out his Grandfather's '32 Packard in an attempt to rod it but then he didn't have to pay for it in the first place I assume. From all the chatter one would assume that there are shops that specialize in buying AACA Senior cars and rodding them. Is this actually the case?

[ex98thdrill]

Quote:

Can anyone actually document a 99 point restored Full Classic that has been bought in fully restored condition and then rodded?

I can't, but guys like Boyd Coddington would be the type of person who would do something like that.

[Restorer32]

Yes, but is there any documentation that they have ever actually bought a fully restored Full Classic or AACA Senior car and rodded it?

[Matt Harwood]

Quote:

Can anyone actually document a 99 point restored Full Classic that has been bought in fully restored condition and then rodded?

Quote:

I can't, but guys like Boyd Coddington would be the type of person who would do something like that.

There was a '36 or '37 Cord 810 or 812 convertible in Boyd's shop on at least one of the shows sporting 20" billet wheels, a lowered stance and modern bucket seats. Surely there aren't any of these left out there rotting in junkyards, just as most of the Classic Packards, Rolls-Royces, big Lincolns and Cadillacs have already been found and restored. [sarcasm] I can only assume that his "crack" team of "experts" installed a really exotic 350 crate motor and a 4L60 transmission in it. Maybe they even used a super-rare Ford 9-inch out back. Feh. [/sarcasm]

And although it's not a Classic, there was a perfect '32 Ford B-400 convertible sedan getting cut up in the background of many of the shows. This is still an extremely rare car that is fast approaching six-figures in price. That's a hell of a foundation for a rod.

Then there are just the heartbreakers--the two completely original, running, driving survivors, a Model T roadster and a '59 Impala that he bought under false pretenses (even telling the owner of the Impala that it was going into his "museum" or some such hogwash). On the T, they scrapped everything but the body, which they used to build a salt flats roadster for Boyd's supremely annoying wife with the awful facelift. That [highly modified] original body could have been fabricated from scratch for what he paid for the complete T and the car could have been saved. Double feh.

I should also point out that this is just one shop seen through the limited eye of a camera. Imagine what some of the hacks and home-built guys are doing. There are not many amateur-built rods I would risk a ride in. And to make a point on this sorry situation, quite a few of Foose's rods are completely scratch-built, body and everything, although they tend to look like familiar old cars (that '36 Ford roadster "Impression" from two years ago comes to mind).

Dave has a large photo collection of desireable Packards, Rolls Royces and other Classics that have been cut up for Rods (there was a pretty extensive thread a few years ago). The one that pains me most is the '35 Packard victoria coupe in silver--that was a senior Packard, not a 110/120 (not that that would make it much easier to take). You can see it in the official Boyd Coddington thread below.

I agree--there's a lot of money circulating in the hot rod world and everybody wants something different. Why should they start with a heap, or even a car that may not be available as a heap anymore?

I share Dave's concerns.

[Matt Harwood]

A '64 Pontiac probably feels like a Ferrari compared to my '41 Buick!

[West Peterson]

Originally Posted By: pitt64

Driving around on those little old tires with that sloppy ratio steering box is dangerous. I updated my whole steering and suspension while keeping it original looking. These old cars handle better then the new cars with unnoticeable modifications.
Anybody that takes a priceless car out on todays roads with bias ply tires is plain crazy in my book!!!

It's not the ratio that's sloppy, it's the used-up, well-worn steering box. You can call me crazy, but I just overhauled/restored the whole front end of my 1940 Packard then drove it from Dayton to Hershey and back (1,700 miles), on and off main roads. There was nothing, absolutely nothing, squirrelly about the steering using bias-ply tires.
In my opinion, I suspect that most people fit radial tires to their cars when they probably just needed to "get their house in order." In fact, it may be more dangerous to use radial tires, in the long run, if you haven't made sure your steering components are "up to snuff" first. You may be just masking some dangerous situation.

[BJM]

Dave and Matt,

I will always appreciate the well executed rebuttal to my comments. Your points are well taken. These rods - I don't see I guess.

In my world, in central Iowa, you can go to an old car show affiliated with a town "festival" every weekend. Some shows draw 200 - 300 cars and trucks. The street rod crowd is fairly tight, glad handing and sharing shade covers and beverage coolers. These are guys 40 to 70 years old, typically about 52 years old, that enjoy these get togethers as a hobby AND more importantly the "typical" rod they show up in is a fat fendered Chevy or Ford, circa 1935 to 1949.

Every year Des Moines hosts the Goodguys Midwest nationals on July 4 weekend. Up to 10,000 cars show up. I have not been for awhile because of cost and heat but it would be interesting to do a survey next year. How did you acquire your car? Did you build it from a project? And to see if there are any rare cars such as Packards present.

[ex98thdrill]

Quote:

Yes, but is there any documentation that they have ever actually bought a fully restored Full Classic or AACA Senior car and rodded it?

No I can't say that, but Boyd Coddington has no values, morals or personality. If there is anyone who would do that, he'd be at the top of the list.

.....A rock has more class than Boyd does.

[BJM]

I almost said that but we have to be careful.

[Dave@Moon]

Quote:

These rods - I don't see I guess.

It only takes one to completely change your perspective. Seeing something stupid being done on TV by Coddingham or someone else is one thing. When you're standing next to the obscenity it's another world.

For me it was attending the big local street rod/antique show called The Pumpkin Run in 2002. I haven't been back since. I wound up parked accross from a 1932 Lincoln KB sedan that had been totally rodded out. It had all the hallmarks of a mint restored car that had been chopped and gutted for a weekend of glory for the owner. You should've seen the crowd that was impressed by the sacrifice.

The best way to spot one of these suspect rods is to look for perfect rare parts that are still with the car. No one making a rod out of a late 30's Terraplane would spend the cash needed for a perfect "red carrot" hood ornament when many better options are available for 1/20th the price. I've seen three Terraplane rods with perfect hood ornaments, one in person. It was at the same show as the Lincoln.

[Dave@Moon]

Jeff,

One of the problems I have with our hobby is the continuing impression we give neophytes that our cars are hopelessly inept on the road unless they are "improved". I'm sure your '64 Pontiac's handling was improved nicely by the modifications, but I seriously doubt any 1964 car is genuinely "dangerous" to drive in good stock condition.

Newer technology makes for better drivablilty for sure, but is that an improvement? Is it more fun to drive a '41 Chevy that accurately duplicates a 2001 Chevy, or is it more fun to drive a car that gives a real impression of what our grandfathers thought was a joy to drive? Also can one really call oneself an antique car enthusiast if the car in question shows no signs of antiqueness on the road?

Driving an old car at 35 mph can be a ball. Any car can be fun to operate within it's limitations. Those limitations should be looked upon as a defining characteristic, not a handicap. There's a reason why Lance Armstrong didn't race a Harley in the Tour de France.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

There are plenty of cars being lost from a restorer's perpective. If you go to the Packard forum you will see someone selling drivetrain parts off a 1940 Packard 120 that is being street rodded. There is also a discussion in the buy/sell section around the value of a 1932 Packard light eight sedan. I mention this in response to the question around restored Classics being purchased for hot rodding. This Packard appears a little rough although it is complete. I believe losing a car like this example to street rodding is the same as the loss of a restored car. The condition can be addressed, but once the car is completely cut up and the original parts discarded, you reach the point of no return, and the historical value is gone.

To Dave's point, two of the common reasons I hear from rodders are that antique cars are more roadable when modified, and that they are worth more in a hot rodded state. I think these are both bad arguments in the long run.

As West points out a properly restored car is generally fine for todays much improved roads. The experience if much different than today's vehicles and that is where the actual fun is! This is the message AACA should be putting out to members and potential members. The tour coverage is a great start - it shows what fun can be had with restored cars.

To the financial argument I would point out street rodding has always been trendish or faddish. When the fad of modifying cars not traditionally hot rodded passes, there will be a limited market for these cars in the future. I think the hot rod TV shows are overexposed and will probably be gone in a couple of years. It is up to groups like AACA to attract new members who will be collectors and restorers long after this fad passes. AACA regions do a fair amount to attract youth, something others should do also. I am trying to get the local clubs I am involved in to attract youth as well. These are steps that can be taken.

Any other ideas?