Bus. Cpe vs. Conv. cpe vs Roadster

[DOC18015]

I am looking at an early 30s Chrysler cpe. Which of the subject cars has a rumble seat? What is the difference between the two cpes? Thanks

[De Soto Frank]

Generally, a "business coupe" is the cheapest/ most spartan of the three, with only a single bench seat (2 or 3 passenger), perhaps with a package space behind it in 1934 and later models, and a very large trunk section - these were intended for travelling salesmen and similar professions where toting large amounts of gear (vs. people) was the goal.

A Convertible Coupe would be a 2 or 3 passenger coupe, again with the single bench seat, and a folding top, with a profile resembling the closed coupe, and (most important feature) roll-up door windows, so that when the top is up and the windows are all closed, the car was as tight and snug as a closed car.
Most (if not all) convertible coupes do not have a fold-down windshield.

Convertible Coupes are often found with or w/o rumble seat, usually "with".

A Roadster (much mis-used term these days) is an "open car", again, 2 or 3 passenger, with single bench seat, and a folding top WITHOUT roll-up windows; for foul or cold weather, canvas side curtains with clear "soft" windows were snapped into place. "Standard" roadsters usually did not have rumble seats, but had a trunk instead. "Deluxe" or "Sport" roadsters usually had rumble seats.

One of the last "true" American production roadsters (again, no roll-up windows in the doors) was the Dodge Wayfarer in 1949.

By 1939 or so, most "Convertible Coupes" were getting back seats, which raised their passenger capacity to 5 people.

Going by the "Standard Catalog of Chrysler: 1914 - 2000", Chrysler offered all three body styles in all of its models series, the from the cheapest 66 series through the 70, 77, and CJ "Imperial" series.

Chrysler appears to have dropped the "Roadster" from factory production after the 1932 model year. The Convertible Coupe, and closed coupes continued into the 1940's, Rumble Seat Coupes were dropped after 1938.


Hope this helps. Generally "rumble" and "non-rumble" coupes share the same body, but employ different rear deck-lids and hardware, as appropriate.

Most Chrysler Comvertible Coupes pre-'33 have the "S"-shaped "Landau" irons on the sides of the folding top. Roadsters do not have this device.

Good luck !

(PS: in the strictest sense of the terms (not how the industry / auto writers use them today!), "Convertible" (Coupe or Sedan)implies "roll-up windows", resulting in closed-car comfort; "Roadsters", "Phaetons", and open "Touring Cars" all use removeable side-curtains, which provide minimal protection from bad weather. Yes, I'm a stodge when it comes to automotive terms like these! )

[BillP]

Once again Frank, very well put. Words DO mean something. I have a friend with a new-ish Jag something convertible. He proudly calls it his 'roadster'. I have to bite my tongue and say, "Oh, nice car."

[R W Burgess]

Good job Frank. Be aware that all of these models are becoming real popular with the street rod crowd, inflating prices of same. If you find a good one, buy it. You can't go wrong. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/image...lins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[bkazmer]

I'm a stodge too. I'd say that the Jeep Wrangler when in the soft-top plus side curtains mode is a roadster, and the original Dodge Viper was a roadster if the fixed targa rear window doesn't disqualify it. There were no outside door releases because you could undo the side curtain to release from inside.

In fairness to the marketing abuse of the terms now, it's not new. In the the 30's "all weather phaeton" was used to describe a convertible sedan.

We could have a whole 'nother debate on coupe vs. 2-dr sedan....

[Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Did Chrysler ever use the word "Cabriolet"? A Ford Cabriolet seems to be the same as the Chrysler Convertible Coupe. Interestingly, Ford made a Sport Coupe which looks similar to the Cabriolet, but the top doesn't really fold down. It just looks like it does. They look very similar to each other. Of course roadsters are easily distinguishable from either of the others.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Frank,A super job of explaining the FACTS.NOW lets talk about the ALL NEW Volkswagon PHAETON 75,000$ I will buy you one if......YOU can get the top down without a torch or hacksaw and you can find those side curtains.Its a PHAETON its GOTTA have side curtains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!diz

[Terry Bond]

My favorite is the 28/9 Model A Busines Cpe with the oval windows instead of landau bars. Neat looking car and fairly scarce.
Terry

[De Soto Frank]

Never saw the oval-window Model A Coupe...any pics out there?


Diz,

Yeah, the $70,000 VW "Phaeton" sedan...uh-huh...those clever Chermans haf come a long vay since der t'irty-six horze-power "Stregnth-through-Joy wagen" , haven't dey?

Perhaps VW is going further back and referencing the Roman (or was he Greek?) god Phaeton (the sun god) who drove his chariot across the heavens each day from dawn to dusk ? ( Then one day, his kid "borrowed" the chariot and team, and wrought all kind of havoc, but that's another story...)
( I think it's a stretch too ).

"Cabriolet" - I believe this term is a hold-over from the horse-carriage days, like "Coupe`", "Phaeton", "Coach", "Landau"...

I believe Chevrolet's "deluxe roadster" (or was it a convetible coupe?) of 1932-33, was offically called a Cabriolet; I have never heard of a Chrysler Corp model (in any of their divisions) called a "Cabriolet"...


I just get torqued by these bozoes who write auto articles who refer to every blessed thing on wheels with a roof that goes away as a "roadster"..."that ain't the way I hear-ed it, Johnny..." and every closed car that's "cool" is a "coupe"...

Meks me so durn med...'s awfil...(apologies to Krazy Kat)

My 1918 Dykes manual has a two-page spread with line drawings and descriptions of the various types of closed and open car bodies in common use at the end of WW I. Explains the differences between a "Berline", and "Limousine", and a "Town Car", etc.

[De Soto Frank]

Oh, and "2dr sedan vs coupe"...don't get me goin' on THAT one...


How many remember back when two-door sedans were known as a "Coach" ?

My ultimate definition of a "true" coupe goes by a couple of qualitications:

1) No back seat. If it has a back seat within the enclosed cabin, then it's a "Club Coupe". ( See also #3 below...)

2) Max of 3 passengers in the cabin. (Rumble seats excluded).

3) Has a different body silhouette than the 2-dr Sedan (or "Coach"). True coupes have a very small cabin,usually without 1/3 windows, and usually a pronounced rear deck section. (This is the most important qualifaction, in my book.)

4) The "truest" coupe`s of all, have the "coupe` cowl pillar", that curves towards the front of the vehicle, as it meets the lower sill. This design feature does trace back to the horse-drawn Coupe`s of the 19th century. A good automotive example would be the 1928 Model A Ford Coup`e.
Also, the Locomobile "Growler Coupe`" - "a type adapted from the old London four-wheeler".
(Actually, it's a fairly hideous amalgam of styles, but literally looks like someone fitted a 19th century carriage body to a 1920's Locomobile chassis!)

Ah well, these days folks seem to know only what Madison Avenue tells them...


Enough prattle; I shall now retire to my study for some quite contemplation...
and perhaps some sherry...

[DOC18015]

Frank and everyone else....MANY THANKS!! The person is representing this car as a conv. cpe w/rumble seat. It is in reality a coupe w/rumble seat. According to the N.A.D.A. guide there is a substantial difference in value.

This board is a wealth of information which I appreciate.

Can anyone tell me where to get some tail light lenses for my 31 Graham 820?????
I think I am going to end up going to the wrecking yard and finding a large lense, then cutting to fit. Quick fix and wrong but spring is near.

[DizzyDale]

Dear bkazmer,Do you really think anyone would debate coupe vs two door sedan?AW who am i kiddin......Is it partly sunny or partly cloudy?diz

[DizzyDale]

Dear Doc18015,Frank did a GREAT job with that,as for your Graham taillight lens,I think you are needing to talk to Franks brother Harry,THATS Harry Houdini.diz

[Terry Bond]

Did anyone mention the "close-coupled sedan?" Think Cadillac and others in the luxury/semi-luxury end of the game made them. Its really a shortened sedan, or is it a lengthened coupe? Not sure which but still just basically a two seater with possibly jump seats in rear area. Think the Model A Victoria was a take-off on that styling, although that was a full rear seat vehicle. Handsome styling and a bit roomier than a standard coupe.
Terry

[De Soto Frank]

...then the price goes up"...

Funny that; way back when, the CLOSED cars were the expensive ones...the rag-tops were the "cheap" cars...

[bkazmer]

I believe a close coupled sedan means that the rear seat is ahead of the rear axle. Usually the third side window is therefore smaller or deleted. A Victoria is (cringe) a "close coupled coach."

[ronbarn]

Desoto Frank, Excellent explanation those of us who are sticklers for precise words. Unfortunately that precision was not necessarily standardised as has been brought up in subsequent replies. Another example, when Marmon made their first "convertible" (top drops and windows roll up) was in 1927 with the Little Marmon Eight. This was the same year that many other makes first introduced true convertibles, and the term was not standardised. Marmon called their car a Collapsible Coupe - you can imagine the chagrin of the average salesman trying to sell a car that used the term "Collapsible". Their Coupe that year had landau irons, rumble seat and a pull down back window in the coupe compartment to allow conversation with the passengers in the rumble seat.

[De Soto Frank]

Ron,

Good points! I doubt there will ever be "conformity of terminology" as long as there are people out there writing ad copy !

Sadly, less-common makes such as the Marmon are frequently overlooked in these discussions...mea culpa !

I think there was a Model T Ford "coupe" or "Coach" in the early '20s that was almost a "hardtop"...it was a closed car that had glass windows in the doors and quarters, and a removeable "B" pillar, so that when all was opened-up, you had unobstructed window-ways from windshield to rear of roof. I will have to dig into Bruce McCalley's "History of the Model T Ford" for specifics...

[Terry Bond]

Yes-those Model T's were called "Coupelets" and the removable side pillar opend them right up. It was first introduced in 1915 and was a coupe body with landau bars and a soft top that folded down. The 1916s got fancy with small oval windows the the top also, but sometime during 1917 the folding top idea was cancelled out and the couplelets were delivered with fixed tops but were still fabric covered. 1918 was the last year for them and although the removable side window pillar was sitll there, the top was no longer padded. A friend in the local club found one a few years ago in Norfolk being used as a "christmas yard ornament." It's now owned by one of our Tidewater Region members and is awaiting a full restoration. Very interesting car!
Terry