Bill Harrah Collection ====TODAY

[poci1957]

I never got to see the Zimmerman collection but I met Mr Zimmerman in the late 1980s while working on his V16 Cadillac, I just recently came across my Auto-rama commemorative ashtray and grille medallion he gave me then. Thanks for the reference, made me smile!

[alsancle]

Who has a list of the cars sold and to whom at the Harrah auction and the Holiday Inn auction? Brassnutboyz

You can buy the auction catalogs off of ebay. As for who bought the cars, I doubt that information exists or if it does I doubt its available.

[brassnutboyz]

Does anyone know who the auctioneer was for the Harrah' auction. They might have the purchasers name.

[Nancy DeWitt]

Our museum is fortunate to own seven former-Harrah cars: 1906 Compound, 1917 Owen-Magnetic, 1919 McFarlan, 1920 Argonne, 1921 Heine-Velox, 1922 Wills Ste. Claire and 1928 Pierce-Arrow (Model 81). We're not sure if our 1921 Daniels was at Harrah's once or not. Like most of our museum cars, all of these will be driven during the summer.

I found a photo of our McFarlan at Harrah's on eBay recently and would be interested in finding more photos of our cars while at Harrah's. We recently showed the McFarlan at the Kirkland Concours in Washington,. It and the Heine-Velox are getting some restoration work done before being shipped to Alaska.

Nancy DeWitt
projects@fdifairbanks.com

[frankmc]

Two comments. One Harrah and one Zimmerman. In the mid 60's we owned a 1926 Oldsmobile all original with 6500 miles on it. Somehow Harrah's found out about it and sent a representative to look at the car. Since it was the first use of chrome plating on a production car Harrah wanted one for his museum. We must have asked too much since he didn't purchase ours. I visited the collection in 1971 and a 26 Olds was there with a sign telling about the first use of chrome plating. In 1978 we purchased a car out of the Zimmerman collection which was either in bankruptcy or IRS trouble. The lean on the title was for 3 million dollars.

[Ivan Saxton]

It was 1980 that I was lucky enough to see the Harrah Collection, which was after quite a few cars, mostly unrestored, had gone; yet the collection was largely intact and there was still restoration in progress on some notable cars.
in the early -mid 1960's I had a little correspondance with Bud Catlett and Ralph Dunwoodie, mostly in response to queries about cars I had initially. Then about 1968 I learned that Bud was coming out with the HCCA as guests of the Veteran Car Club of Australia and would be on their rally (or Tour as you say) based at Terrigal which is on the coast far enough north of Sydney. Stuart Middlehurst and I decided to attend in his 1912 Alfonso Hispano Suiza. Bud seemed a bit sceptical initially that such a young bloke actually had all the (unrestored ) cars I said I had, till he saw a few photos and realised I knew exactly what I was talking about. Then in 1970 Harrahs were represented in the 1970 FIVA International Rally from Sydney To Melbourne by Bud and Bernice in the 66hp Pierce Arrow, and Ray and Sylvia Jesch in a Thomas Flyer. Mr Harrah and his wife were also planning to come, but unfortunately his relationship with her (Bobbie Gentry) suffered a terminal malfunction, and they were absent. Anyway, apparently the Pierce had to run the first two days on the trembler coil ignition because the magneto timing was wrong, and I met Bud again while he was messing around trying to fix it himself without obvious success. Well, as you do, I suggested helpfully that you have to do these things according to basic first principles; and next thing I was turning the crank to TDC#1, and setting the timing at points just breaking full retard with Bud watching me like a policeman(as he was). It was fine.
On the way back to Sydney along the secondary highway, it was arranged that they would stop at Druion to see the cars several of us had around there. Then we were to have lunch at my parents'home. As it happened, there were thre extra people for lunch on short notice, Al and Martha Helwig from California, and a lad from Sydney who was taking a ride back there in the Thomas. That was not a bother to cope with, and about half an hour after we stepped in the door the meal was ready to serve up. They threee ladies had it on the plates so quickly that it was almost too hot to eat when we sat down.
Some months later I got a phone call from Bud at work asking me to examine and report on an unrestored original 4 cylinder Delaunay Belleville which was offered to them by a rather shifty fellow about 100miles north of Melbourne. I saw the car again in storeage at the collectionwith new hickory in the wheels but otherwise as it was. Several years later I went to Sydney to give them a detailed report on a 2litre OHC Chenard Walcker, which they did not buy.
Bud had arranged that he would show me around the collection, but when I got to Reno his phone was not answering at all. So Jim Edwards showed me around, including the restoration shop where I photographed the FRP , the car designed and built by Finley Robertson Porter after he left Mercer; and one of the Bugatti Royales, whose engine was out and stripped down to correct some serious problem. I have since learned from friends with Bugattis that they do get serious problems. The unrestored Roamer Duesenberg had been sold to a man in California who had several others so I never saw that. An there were so many extraordinary cars there, that I walked past cars that here I would have spent half a day looking over and crawling under. Jim gave me a sticker for my overalls and left me to wander round as I liked, including inside the ropes; but I was not permitted to touch anything. One car I photographed in some detail was the black 1927 Stutz Black Hawk speedster from the racing team. Some years later I was given copy of a drawing with necessary measurements that several clones were made from. (I must get my feet untangled from my beard and finish the one I started.)
Two cars from the collection I have seen and ridden in. I met Charlie Norris at Auburn, and some weeks later when in Portland Oregon a Mercer friend took me around to visit him. Charlie had reduced his number of J model Duesenbergs from four to two, and had bought a maroon V8 WillsStClaire from Harrahs dispersal. He gave it plenty of time to warm up, and it was mechanically noisy. I was unimpressed by its road performance, but suspected it was capable of better. It was not a car restored by Harrahs, but considered reasonably presentable.
The other ex-Harrah car that I saw and rode in was at Alton Walker's home inside the Pebble Beach golf course in 1984. Alton was a very early member of HCCA, and a pilot most of his life I believe. His house was in the Golf course because he was there first; and the tee for the first sudden death play-off was right outside his front fence. The reason I corresponded with him was a mutual interest and ownership of Locomobile 3litre OHV straight eight cars about mid-twenties. Mine is very rough. His was another unrestored but presentable ex-Harrah roadster.
It also did not perform as enthusiastically as I had expected. I supposed my expectations are biassed by my experience with Mercer, and now also my Roamer-Duesenberg.
I apologise that I have used a lot of words to tell you about just two ex-Harrah cars.

[john2dameron]

NANCY DEWITT: The 1984 auction catalog shows a 1919 McFarlan four-passenger sport touring, Model 125. The info I recorded with the catalog states that it was in #4 condition and sold for $35,000.

Brassnutboyz: Dean Kruse (Kruse International) did the auctions in 1984, 85 and 86.

[john2dameron]

1n 1984 I spent several days camped in Donnor Pass, CA. Every morning as soon as I could get my wife and three kids in the car I'd head for Harrah's. When I got there I would hang a cassette recorder on my belt and a microphone on my shirt so I did not have to keep notes. I went through every aisle, down one side and up the other taking pix. The family would walk down one aisle with me and sit down at the end of it (there were benches along the wall). I go back up the other side of that aisle and down the next and they would rejoin me as I returned back up that aisle so they walked each aisle once while I walked it twice. One day I saw Wayne Newton there with two bodyguards. He consented to give me his autograph and posed with the bodyguards by a Marmon touring car for me to take his photo. Many, many interesting cars but it was easy to see that Mr. Harrah's emphasis had been on numbers and not necessarily on restoration quality. Took lots of photos with a Nikon 201 SLR and a cheap flash. Went through lots of batteries. The quality of a lot of my photos is not great; neither was the lighting in the museum. Still I am glad I went and would do it again in a heart beat. One car that interested me was a 1942 Ford coupe. I thought it would maybe be something I could afford. However, all the cars brought premium prices, I'm sure because of the Harrah ownership. The '42 Ford in #3 condition sold for $9,000, a 1907 Ford Model K touring, 1-2 condition, brought $62,500, a 1910 Napier 7-passenger touring, #1 condition brought $275,000, and a 1936 Duesenberg SJN convertible coupe with a Murphy body, #1 condition, sold for $800.000.

[trimacar]

In the early 80's was on vacation at Lake Tahoe, and wife and I drove to Harrah's. What a place. I'll make this short, but will mention two things. I stood in the Model T that was set against a wall, for people to climg in and take pictures. I stood, and took a series of pictures that is a panaramic view of that one room, with Duesenbergs on the right, a Pierce with trailer in the middle. It now hangs in my den, framed along with an admission ticket. Would be interesting to have people identify the cars!

Second, I was working on a 1907 Franklin at the time. There was one on display, and a museum attendant saw me looking at it closely; when he found out what I was doing, he rolled the car out in the aisle so that I could crawl under and around it. Then, he asked if I needed parts. He told me to go to the front desk, and ask for a certain person. We were then shown an unmarked door, and walked into the parts room. First, by a lot of engines, many still in crates. Then, a chicken wire wall, with brass lights and horns hanging by the hundreds. Then, aisle after aisle of racks with parts. Harrah liked Franklins, and there were 3 rows of Franklin parts. Hubcaps? He had wooden drawers full of them. The caretaker told me to browse, and make a pile of parts. I did, and wound up with a pretty good pile on the floor, for the 1907. He came over, How much? Well, he said, a couple hundred, let's say $250 if I box it all up and ship it to you. I paid, and a week later the parts were shipped to my home in Louisiana.

What a memory! David Coco Winchester Va.

[Dandy Dave]

I got to shake Bill Harrahs hand once and I ain't washed it since. Was at Hershey in the early 80's. He was a down to earth guy. Dandy Dave!

[Terry Bond]

Glad Bob brought the Zimmerman collection up again. I recall going there as part of the annual pilgrimage to Hershey, and it was a wonderful collection indeed. As I recall, he had difficulty with the state of PA allowing signs for the museum and as a result, closed it down and moved to Fla (refresh my memory if not correct). I think the car museum part of it eventually became an antique mall but it still had the custom carpet there, including a big AACA emblem in the entry-way. As for the Harrah collection, never got to see it, but did encounter Bill at Hershey a couple of times.

Is this the kind of stuff we'll be talking about in the rocking chair on the front porch of the old folks home in a few years?

Terry

[jan arnett (2)]

When I was fifteen I found a Grant in a junk yard and it had a nice brass radiator on it. I pulled it and all the parts out expecting to build a hot rod. A buyer for Bill Harrah heard about it and flew in to pay me a visit. I gave twenty five dollars for the Grant and he paid me $500. They kept in touch with me and when I went to college they offered me a summer job in their research department. I worked my forty hours and then they let me work with the mechanics. I had more fun then you should be allowed to have. I met Bill on several occassions and he was always nice to me. Not many have this opportunity and I have been grateful for it. Have nice day.

[keiser31]

Jan...in 1970 I wrote the Harrah collection folks about working for them. Unfortunately, they would not hire a 17 year old.

[Ivan Saxton]

Two cars of the Zimmerman collection I know something about. The T-head Mercer Raceabout belongs to Dean Butler, and it is consistently raced in vintage car races in England, where I understand he lives most of the time. Apparently it beats Bentleys ten years or so more modern. In 1984 Randy Ema introduced me to Alan Clendenon in Anaheim, and he still had there a Lancia Alpha restoration project which he had sold to an airline pilot who he did not name. I took some photos, but unfortunately mostly of parts which I was lacking for my 1911 Lancia Delta, which is a derivative design not much heavier but substantially faster and more powerful. The little Alpha had been in the Zimmerman collection, but when the collection was sold as I understand, nobody wanted it much because it was painted pink and had been shortened. Alan got it and corrected the chassis alteration if I remember correctly what he told me, so it was a fairly straight project for the next owner. Now I suspect that this may have been the early Lancia from James Melton's collection, which was an Alpha bodied like a Mercer Raceabout; and it had a radiator badge wich was designed by one of Lancias friends for the 1911 and later cars. I am fairly sure this one had a badge on the radiator, but I did not know then that it did not originally have one. Undoubtedly James Melton was as much attraction to bring people to see his cars as were the cars themselves; and as fewer then may have been knowledgible of authenticity, if he got an interesting chassis it may have tempting to rebuild it in form and function as he preferred. Bob told us a while back this car had an A Ford crankshaft which is nowhere near a fit in the later cars.

[1937hd45]

Ivan, thank you for both of your posts, I forgot about the Zimmerman MERCER. Here is a photo of the Melton Lancia, I think there may have been two early ones in the aera in the late 1950's. The one I mentioned earlier with the Model A Ford crankshaft didn't have fenders. The bodywork on the Melton car doesn't look like factory work to me.

[poci1957]

Ivan, the Zimmerman car I worked on in the 1980s was a yellow 1935 Cadillac V16 with a 154" wheelbase and a Fleetwood victoria convertible body, I guess only one of two built that year. Do we know where it is now? I think I recall him speaking of an Olds Limited at that time too but I never saw it, probably in storage in Florida. Thanks, Todd C

[TG57Roadmaster]

As a wide-eyed 11-year-old on a family trip Way Out West, we stopped at Harrah's on July 27, 1968. Thankfully, my dad acknowleged the budding enthusiasm I showed to all old cars, and the visit made a lasting impression, to say the least. Admission for "minors" was 75 cents, but the adults got a free token and drink at the casino for their $1.50 ticket price. Our tickets (and some very fond memories) are all that remain of that storied stop, as none of my Instamatic's pictures turned out. Too bad...



A favorite photo from The Making of Modern Michigan's Digital Collection is this '31 Packard 840 Club Sedan by Dietrich, shown outside Harrah's in the mid-'60's. This particular Packard debuted at the 1931 Chicago Salon, held at the famed Drake Hotel, Nov. 8-15, 1930, and likely would have been one the cars we saw on our tour of the huge collection.

Thanks for starting a great thread!

TG

[1937hd45]

Thanks TC ! Great photo of that Packard, the Show cars were always special. While you were on that Harrah Collection tour I was at the Henry Ford Collection, my high school graduation present.

[Dandy Dave]

I got to shake Bill Harrahs hand once and I ain't washed it since. Was at Hershey in the early 80's. He was a down to earth guy. Dandy Dave!

How time, and memory, flys by. I guess it was in the mid to late 70's. As a little bird told me he passed in 1978. I looked it up and sure nuff. I didn't realize that the man did so young. 66 he was. What I remember clearly was that I was walking along looking at stuff and spotted a friend who was talking to Bill. I had no idea until I was introduced. My friend sold him a vintage truck many years ago and that is how they knew each other. Dandy Dave!

[Ivan Saxton]

The other early Lancia you mention in your corner of the country was apparently much more original and authentic. Morris Burrows told me of it when I was his guest for nthe 1980 Glidden Tour at Bretton Woods. It was one of the early small cars, either an Alpha or a Beta; and it had a very nice open 4 passenger body by one of the better USA bodybuilders of the era in the north-east. Morris said he very seriously considered buying it when it was available. In 1980 it was in the Seal Cove Museum, he said; but I understood that the museum had shut for the season and there was no way that I could have seen it. I believe it was sold to Switzland. There was another slightly later and larger model about too, which featured in the UK magazine Autoitalia several years ago. It may have been owned by Austin Clark for a while; and was ten in Peter Helk's Collection before it was sold to Holland before the present UK ownership. The car itself is something of a mystery, because the story with it was that it was raced at Savannah; with the implication that it was either the car with which Jim Hillard won the International Light Car Race on 25th of November 1908, or that with which Knipper won the Tideman Trophy a year later. Hillard's car was almost certainly an Alpha, because the new Tipo 54 Beta model was first introduced at the London Motor Show in Nov 1908. Knipper's car could have been either. The Autoitalia car is quite clearly a 1910 Gamma model which could never have raced the two previous years. And the early number that has been stamped on the channel of the chassis rail above the front spring hanger looks like someone has tried to create provenance. Some Italian makers like FIAT stamped numbers on the actual front spring hangers, but Lancia never did.
You must be pleased at the bounce in the number of views since this earlier thread of your re-surfaced, Bob. There are other significant early collectors who probably did a great service through saving rare cars for eventual enjoyment by later owners. I have never seen a comprehensive list of the collections of Barney Pollard or Cameron Peck, for instance. And the quality and rareity of Briggs Cunningham's was extraordinary.
With your interest in modified T models, you should talk to Dean Butler. A couple of years ago after Phillip Island Historic Racing when he came here for lunch, he told me that he could supply new castings for 5 bearing crank T models. He also has a twin cam Miller T Ford head, which would be a good one to replicate. You would need good brakes. I'll probably be able to make 4-valve Rajos available to people who want them in a year or so.

[Herbie3Rivers]

I just found this thread and thought I'd show off my former Harrah's Collection car. My 1959 VW Herbie was part of the collection from 1980 to 1984. Prior to that it was part of James Brucker's MovieWorld Cars of the Stars. My car was part of the September 1984 liquidation auction and sat languishing for years before being restored in the early 90s. I have the certificate from Harrah's, the auction catalog, a bidder pass(recent find), copies of old titles and registration documents and bunch of other documentation from the collection. I'm always interested to hear stories of the museum and if anyone remembers my car or has pictures of it when it was in the collection.

1984:


Today:

[Joneebgood]

If anyone has an auction list and it is not too much to ask would you please look for this Chrysler for me? It was in a museum at one time but we do not know which one.

1936 Chrysler Airstream C-8 rumble seat coupe

Thank for any help you can offer.

NANCY DEWITT: The 1984 auction catalog shows a 1919 McFarlan four-passenger sport touring, Model 125. The info I recorded with the catalog states that it was in #4 condition and sold for $35,000.

Brassnutboyz: Dean Kruse (Kruse International) did the auctions in 1984, 85 and 86.

[keiser31]

If anyone has an auction list and it is not too much to ask would you please look for this Chrysler for me? It was in a museum at one time but we do not know which one.

1936 Chrysler Airstream C-8 rumble seat coupe

Thank for any help you can offer.

Looks just like the one that I saw in the Windsor Antique Auto Museum in Ontario Canada when I was about 14 years old...1964. I believe the museum is still there on Laurium Street?

[franklinman]

I was fortunate enough to have visited the HAC both before and after Bill Harrah's untimely passing and the subsequent break up of the collection. For ardent car buffs the original collection was probably more interesting (I know it was for me!). Just so many great cars to see at one time. The new museum is certainly more appealing to the general public with it's professionally designed displays, etc. Harrah maintained a car museum for car guys/gals. The attitude from the collection staff, while Bill was alive, was much more helpful towards the car collector/restorer. I once called to see if I could get a photo, or at least a drawing with some measurements of a small part from one of the cars, and was lucky enough to end up talking with long time Harrah employee Clyde Wade. He said he'd see what he could do. About a week later I got a surprise when the part showed up in the mail along with a note saying thay didn't have a spare, and since it was quicker to take it off than to make up a drawing just copy this one and get it back as soon as possible. The year after the new museum opened downtown, I was finally able to meet Clyde in person on our Honeymoon trip and thank him in person. A great time in our Hobby that won't be forgotten.

[dei]

Boy do I love this thread!

TG57Roadmaster,
You say you were there in July 1968. I was there in July 1969 at the age of 14. Not only do I remember it as thrilling and awestruck but Dad just gave me a box of some of his auto material collection last Saturday and while going through it all, found the same admission tickets you posted. Mine has a date stamp of July 13, 1969.

Of possible interest is the ticket numbers on the adult tickets being a year apart. Mine is 414766 and yours is 321924 indicating 92842 paid adult admissions in one year? At $1.50 ea this would be $139,263.00 gross income not including the .75 minor admissions! NOT BAD INCOME BACK IN 1969! Who says Museums can`t sustain themselves if the numbers are true? Of course in business the saying "Location, Location, Location" helps.

My minor admin ticket number is 426398. Could not see yours the way you posted but it would be interesting to see how many kids went through in that time period to support the hobby wouldn't it? With now owning 8 antique cars, Dad taking the effort to bring me through Harrah's Collection was the best thing (or the worst - ha, ha) he could have done for me!
Great memories!
Doug