What's the value of a nice '65 Olds 98 convertible?

I've also posted the following on the buy/sell forum page. But, thought I'd also place it here in the hope getting more feedback.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.duffys.com/duffys/results...tockid=206041" TARGET=_blank>http://www.duffys.com/duffys/results...kid=206041</A> <P>A well known dealer has what appears to be a nice 1965 Oldsmobile 98 convertible listed for sale at $21,000. I have photos of this car and it appears to be in very nice shape and looks like it has air conditioning - even the though the dealer ad doesn't mention it.<P>I subscribe to the CPI (Cars of Particular Interest) price guide. The latest issue shows a '65 Olds 98 in excellent condition has a value of $9,700. That's a big gap! ($9,700 vs. $21,000) <P>I know some of this gap is because the car is now in the hands of a dealer which essentially eliminates all hope it will sell for a fair and reasonable value. <P>NADA and Old Cars Price Guide are more generous in there values, but I've found these guides to be signficiantly over-inflated. The main problem is that everyone thinks their car is in #1 condition and they're usually not even close. As an example, there's probably only a handful of '65 Olds 98 convertibles on the planet that are in true #1 condition - and those that are wouldn't be for sale at a dealer. They'd be tucked away in a museum. But, I digress.<P>Anyone have any opinions as to a fair value for the 1965 Olds 98 highlighted in the link above? I'd appreciate any and all informed feedback.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Welllll, we've been down this road before. Any car guide is just that, a guide. You rely on the editors getting it right and in most cases they do not or they are not able to keep up with the change in auction prices and the current climate in the hobby. I know of at least one instance that a Condition #1 car was stated at 250,000 but the last three to have changed hands have been over $500,000 and not in condition #1.<P>You just need to do your homework whether you buy from a dealer, who naturally is out to make a profit or an individual who wants the same thing! Condition and desireability are key...your desire! You know the saying about what a car is worth..."what one old fool is willing to sell for...and what one old fool is willing to pay for."<P>The fact is that if you really want the car you need to decide in your mind what it is worth to YOU as most of the time our purchases are not necessarily a great investment. That being said...the 60's convertibles are gaining in value in the recent years and you probably can't get hurt too bad. $9,700 for a #1 convertible? Sign me up...I'll take two. All, I can tell you is from recollections of ads over the last few years in both club magazines and watching prices in Hemmings that you certainly are looking in the mid-to high teens for this car. A super high point car that is RIGHT obviously could bring 20K plus. You can't restore one for that amount of money.<P>If you like the car, it is mechanically sound and it fits your needs...go for it. However, be smart about it. Check it out THOROUGHLY. Make sure that whatever price you pay you understand what you will need to re-invest in it to make YOU happy.<P>Hope this make some sense to you!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Re-read your post. Nice looking car. I bought a truck from Duff's several years ago and was satisfied in all respects...I also went to look at another which totally disappointed me and I did not purchase it. If you are thinking about buying a car from pictures...DO NOT!! Make the time and spend the travel money and inspect it...

Hey! Good to hear from another Hoosier! Nice to know I'm not alone here in the wilderness of Muncie. You might be interested to know that just yesterday I sent in my registration/dues to join the Oldsmobile Club of America.<P>I'm the market for a nice, yet affordable (a tough combination) full-size convertible and thought my chances of finding an Oldsmobile would increase if I joined the OCA.<P>I wanted to find out about local OCA events here in Indiana, but the Indiana chapter link on the OCA website just has an address to contact. No name, email address or phone number. Too bad. It'd be nice if there was a website (even an email address would be nice) for the local chapter members to keep on top of things - assuming there's anything to keep on top of. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. <P>Regarding this car at Duffy's, while it appears to be in nice condition, the market for a '65 Olds 98 convertible is miniscule compared to GTO's, Mustangs, Hemi's, etc. I think CPI is a pretty good reference. $21,000 for this car is absolutely ludicrous. $15,000 is laughable. $10,000 to $12,500 is probably about right, but at $12,500 someone would want it pretty bad.<P>The dealer obviously loves this car. He'd better, because at #21,000 he's going to be buying it a lot of birthday cakes. <P>A gentleman I know defines asking prices as an "exercise in one's First Amendment Rights". Other than that, they have little bearing in determining what the market really is.<P>Note to all sellers. It's buyers who determine market value - not sellers. Those who disagree will be living with the cars for a very long, long time. Buyers, on the hand, have the option of finding another car because they're like buses - if you miss one, another one always comes along. Most sellers just don't get it. (gee, I'll bet I'm making a lot friends here today).<P>In summary, I'm more than willing to pay fair market value. But, I'm not interested in having the dubious honor of being the guy who paid the highest recorded price for a '65 Old 98 convertible.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I am not sure how active the group down in Indy is but The Illinois Vally Club is super active and a lot of Hoosiers attend their events.<P>I am sure you work very hard for your money and it is up to you to spend as you see fit. However, I have been in this hobby for over 30 years and have bought and sold many, many cars over the years. I have arranged for the purchase of over 20 cars in just the last 5 years for a major collection. I have bought them right and sadly made a couple of mistakes. I do seriously think your pricing of a very nice 65 convertible is flawed if you think $12, 500 is too much. Do some more real world homework....watch the auction results etc. You made a great step by joining the club...we just had a meet with almost 1300 total vehicles in Lansing.<P>If you are bound and determined to get a bargain, that's great. You will have to work at it unless you are willing to get a fix-er-up and are handy enough to do the work yourself. You also might be a little amazed at what quality replacement parts are for these cars, especially brightwork. Who knows, you might just find that little old lady with......well, you know the story.<P>I think you are in for an interesting education in convertible values these days but really hope you find what you want. By the way, I know for a fact that $21,000 is not a record for a '65 98 convertible. There are about 5 folks in OCA in the 2000 Directory so you might want to contact those folks who already own one of these.

I used to live in Iowa and have visited Duffy's several times and am very familiar with the owner. They are known for notoriusly high prices. They do usually have nice cars but they are priced at a premium. It seems that thier aproach is that they are willing to sit on a car for a long time and wait for the person who "has to have that car". I have never heard of anybody getting a "steal" at Duffey's. I also think that 21,000 is somewhat high for a 44K 65 olds 98 convt. I would think $15,000 is a ballpark figure for a nice example like this. Having said this I suppose it is possible that someone "has to have it" and will pay the asking price for it (someone with plenty of money to play with). I doubt they would ever recover thier investment. You can be sure that Duffey's has half the asking price in it. (I know Because I used to go to auctions in Iowa with another old car dealer who would bid against Duffey)and then see the cars offered for twice what he paid for them.

[86 2dr.ltd]

No I dont but I'll say after seeing two now at different car shows their priceless. One fine car.At any rate we like to get them cheap and are lucky because considering they are twice the car as some that bring in the 20's they can be bought cheap comparatively.I only responded to this because I was really set back by the two I stood by. One was Black w/red int. one red w/black int.<P>Also there is one locally thats been stored in a barn that really need some love if any one is interested. I'm sure its restorable.

Another thing to consider is if the car is complete, mechanically sound and in exceptional original condition cosmetically. If so I am sure it could be worth high teens to someone looking for this model.

I should say that I've been looking for a nice full-size convertible for several months. Thus, while I have zero experience as an owner, I've been in the trenches long enough to get a pretty good feel for values. <P>I should also say that I appraise commercial real estate for a living. Thus, I have a pretty good sense of "what's what" with regard to value. By the way, I have a saying in real estate that also applies to classic cars - "cost is not always synonymous with value." <P>I wish I had a dime for every seller I've talked to that has said, "I need $20,000 because that's what I have in it." My reply is always, "so what." I can't help it if someone paid too much in the beginning then spent a bunch fixing it up. These guys bought a car because they loved it and that's all well and good. But, they shouldn't expect the market to bail them out when they realized they've made a mistake, financially speaking.<P>While I'm of the opinion that education is a never ending process, I do think the educaton I've received thus far is pretty solid. I'm also a member of the Cadillac LaSalle Club, Buick Club of America and Pontiac Oakland Club International. While it may sound like I'm a professional club joiner, I'm not. I joined these clubs to meet local members, attend club functions and learn about these particular makes. This has really helped my education with regard to values and the cars themselves.<P>My original love is a 1962, 63, or 64 Eldorado convertible. But, a nice one (which is what I'm looking for) can be pretty pricey. Full size Olds, Pontiacs and Buicks tend to be less in demand and thus less expensive to buy. And, I would be just as happy with one of these.<P>I've been looking for a while now and at this point my options are open because I know there are several cars I'd be satsified with - which is an advantage when negotiating. Because I can always walk away secure in the knowledge that I'll be able to find another car that can melt my butter equally as well.<P>The CPI value guide is based on hundreds (thousands?) of verified sale/auction results. What's the old joke about "a thousand sailors can't be wrong?". Same thing. Thus, I'll stick to my guns knowing the market is on my side.<P>In closing, the guy at Duffy's told me if I use CPI as my pricing reference that I'll never buy a car. I should have told him, "No, I'll be buying a car alright, it just probably won't be from you." Gee, hindsight is always 20-20.

[rocketraider]

You've made your own point when you mention cost of buying a good original or correctly restored car vs. cost of having to restore it "if someone paid too much in the beginning then spent a bunch fixing it up".<P>What would you rather do, buy a turnkey car at $21k and have to do nothing to enjoy it, or buy one for $7500 and then spend $12k plus downtime on restoration- assuming you'd get off that cheap?<P>Believe me, 1960s full size Olds are neither cheap to restore properly nor easy to find NOS for. The reproduction market isn't there, except for rubber parts and the odd piece shared with the Cutlass or another GM Division. I've chased, bought and sold Starfire parts the last 25 years so I feel I can offer an educated opinion here. Ninety Eight-specific pieces are just as scarce, though they are less expensive than the Starfire stuff.<P>I'd say $15-18 thousand is high end for this car, especially with the option package it's carrying. The cast aluminum wheel cover option alone is generally good for $1000 of asking price. If this car has the ultra-rare woodgrain steering wheel, add another grand.

If I may engage is some unabashed self-promotion, my 65 Starfire convertible (for sale in the "For Sale" area) has those cast wheels and the woodgrain wheel. Of course, like the rest of the car, these parts have what might be kindly refered to as a "patina".

Nope, the car at Duffy's doesn't have the wood-grain steering wheel - just the standard plastic one.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Thanks for chiming in Rocketraider...as always, everyone has a right to their opinion and it can change depending on whether you are the buyer or seller! I guarantee you that in the end most of the guys dealing in vintage iron for a LIVING know the market pretty well and you will not have to worry whether they will get stuck! Also, if a seller has invested his hard earned money, time etc. in restoring a car he has the RIGHT to ask whatever he feels appropriate. I have lost money on cars I have restored and on occasion have made a bit. In the end who cares...we each have to do our own thing.<P>ANYWAY, parm old boy, I've got the deal for you. '65 Olds Dynmaic 88 convertible, rebuilt motor and trans, $1,500.00 and located in good old Hoosier land. Bunker Hill whereever the hell that is! 765-689-7508 Ad is in this week's Indiana Auto & RV.

[rocketraider]

Scott, if you don't go away I'll end up doing something stupid! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Bolt-ons and woodgrain wheel indeed- <P>Any chance you've got an extra set of the special wheels the bolt-ons bolt to? I have a dozen or more of the caps, but they ain't no good without the wheels. Of course, right now brake hydraulics are the pressing issue- thank god for Inline Tube!<P>GFW

To Oldscarnut. Thanks for the tip. That's what's great about a website like this. When I was a kid, we had a '65 or '66 4-door that was basically the style/chassis as the Dynamic 88. I remember it well.<P>However, I've got my heart set on a full-out, American boat of a car. So, if it's an Olds, it's gotta be a 98. The lone exception would be a 61-64 Starfire which I know is roughly the same size as the '65 model Dynamic 88. But, the price of a nice Starfire is probably out of my budget. <P>The '65 Dynamic 88 is essentially the same style as a Cutlass 442. In my mind, and this is purely a personal thing, a Dynamic/Jetstar says "I couldn't afford a 442 so I got this". Pretty stupid I know. But, that's just me.<P>Would I like a '65-'67 442? You bet! But, again, a nice one's going to be out of my reach. And, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "a good man knows his limitations", so I don't even bother to look.<P>The asking price of that Dynamic 88 in Bunker Hill (which is northeast of Kokomo) tells me it needs some work. One other thing you need to know about me is that I'm mechanically challenged. I don't have the talent, tools or time to work on cars myself. Wish I did, but I don't. So, whatever I get has to be a "done" car. <P>I'm willing to pay a reasonable premium for a quality car. But, I don't want (nor can I afford) a TRUE #1 car (I'd be scared to death to pull it out of the garage!). I say this because so many sellers I've talked to price their car based on #1 condition when it's really not even close. <P>As an example, that '65 Olds 98 at Duffy's? Yeah, it's nice, but it's been driven 44,000 miles so by definition it IS NOT in #1 condition. (I don't make the rules, I just play by them). But, how does Duffy's have it priced? As a true #1 per Old Cars Price Guide (of which a more apt name is Old Car WISH-Price Guide). <P>Sure, it's his prerogative to ask $21K. But, I wish the guy wouldn't insult my intelligence when he tries to justify his price and tells me the CPI price guide is worthless. If it where, how could CPI stay in business? This guide is based on hundreds (thousands?) of documented transactions. Not just those that occur in the rarified air of auctions like Barrett-Jackson, Amelia Island, Meadowbrook, Pebble Beach, etc. These venues draw cars that are the best of the best and attract buyers with more money than sense (and when you have that kind of money, who cares, right?). These cars and their top-dollar prices don't typify what you and I see on a regular basis. And, they don't need to be placed on the internet to be sold. Thus, they don't represent "real world" market values for the cars placed in CollectCarTraderOnline, Hemmings, Duffy's, etc. <P>If that Olds 98 at Duffy's sells for anywhere close to $21K within a reasonable marketing period of, say, 9 months (Ah yes, TIME. The other critical component of the value equation), I'll buy the Duffy's guy a steak dinner AND shake his hand. But, I digress. <P>Thanks again for the tip/lead. Keep'em coming.

RocketRaider, okay I promise to go away! But first, I must tell you that I do not have any more of the reverse-offset rims you need to mount the bolt-on "mags". As you must know, these are very hard to find, much easier than the "caps" themselves. I did discover recently that certain Buick Riverias (66ish?) used what I believe is the same rim, with a somewhat different cover/center cap configuation. Saw a set sell on Ebay earlier this year. <P>I will pass on any leads I come across...hey, I'd be curious to see any pics of your 64 if you had 'em...scottfettner@hotmail.com

[Steve Moskowitz]

Slow morning so I will add just one more thought to this discussion. Parm. your last post was informative and I believe I understand a little more from where you are coming. Actually, The car near Indy could really be a steal. Needs a top but if it sound otherwise, it could me made into a very nice driver for RELATIVELY litle money.<P>However, since I also appraise cars for some folks and have done it for a few years I think I hvave a decent amount of experience with the guides. To suggest that they are based on 100's or 1,000's of transactions is a little "out there". In some cases they MIGHT be but.....Also, since the vast MAJORITY of collector cars are not sold thru auctions the data can be skewed as well. I have these publications like everyone else and I do refer to them BUT my god, they are so far off on some cars it is ludicrous. If you are buying a car because you want to be in the hobby then find something you like and can afford. Whatever you pay, over the years you will own and hopefully enjoy it, the "investment" will work out. If I am alive in the next 9 months, will contact Duffy's and see. I do think from the pictures and description the price is high BUT my guess is that they will find a buyer in the high teens for it! Good Hunting!