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Thread: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

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    352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Anyone seen this combo before?

    1955 Packard 352 cubic inch Caribbean engine with duel Carter four barrel carburetors. Included with engine is a T85 Ford overdrive transmission.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...item=2463465350

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Yes. Paul in Vegas has run such a combo. The Ford manual 3-speed apparently bolts up to the Packard manual bell housing. But it "kept striping gears" (no surprise) according to Paul the last time we discussed this.

    And I believe he ran this in his 56 Caribbean, but you'd have to ask him.
    Panther Project: http://www.1956PackardPanther.com

    "Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!" -- Ellen Ripley "Aliens"

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    I would like to hear more about that! T85? Whats that from?
    Tim
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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    The T85 or T85 w/overdrive was the production transmission for 1955 and 56 Packards/Clippers. If you bought a stick setup, that's what you got. The Ford truck version is/was a floor shift??
    YFAM, Randy Berger
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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Really? So the Packards with manual trannys used a ford transmission. Interesting.
    Tim
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    Goodnight Mrs. Calabash wherever you are.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Duh? I don't mean to flame anyone, but a rudimentary knowledge of things automotive is a requisite for joining in the conversation and discussion. I hope some never have to make a leap of faith - the chasm is too wide to bridge. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/image.../confused.gif" alt="" />
    YFAM, Randy Berger
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    YFAM, Randy Berger

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    I hardly think that knowing the T85 designation on a transmission is rudimentary knowledge. Seeing as though Ford had made plenty of their own manual gear boxes it is perfectly realistic to think they made this one. If my inquerry implies that I don't have a basic knowledge of things automotive I guess I will have to pull myself out from under the car and look in a book to get this basic understanding.
    Tim
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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    BH
    You are so right. Randy doesnt deserve puns made from the very one Randy helped the most answering his questions when he first signed on. "Least we forget" Jack

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    This is ridiculous. I take issue with being told that I don't even have a rudimentary understanding of things automotive (not Packard). This does not imply that I am ungreatful for the the information that has been given to me here. But it seems that I must know the answer before I ask the question..that is in order be joining in the conversation and discussion. Isn't that the point of asking the question? Whatever.
    Tim
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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    My humble apologies for not having enough "knowledge" to contribute to this site or aske questions pertaining to the hobby. Perhaps it should be noted at the outset that only "experienced people need apply". Too bad because some memebers of the forum seem to be more than happy to answer the questions of us novices. How can we ever hope to attain the exhalted heights of automotive master Berger if we don't ask a few of what he considers dumb questions.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Fellas,

    I too was taken aback by the terse posting on "rudimentary knowledge" from Randy. I have found, in general, that when my "iggorance" shows in these discussions I am usually corrected fairly gently and with good humor.

    I hope that one post that seems to have been made rather hastily and in poor humor will not create too many ill feelings. This forum is outstanding in its civility as well as the knowledge of its participants.

    For my money, knowing that a "Ford" transmission that bolts up to the Packard 352 is really a "BW" transmission that Packard and Ford both purchased is not rudimentary but rather "esoteric" knowledge. After all, manual transmissions are none too common on these cars (at least, that's my understanding).

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this, Brian. I completely respect efforts to make sure that erroneous ideas are corrected, and it's just basic good sense to do so. The WAY in which corrections are stated is also very important. Don't you think? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/image...ins/smile.gif" alt="" />

    Peace,
    Guy Strauss

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    You know something? I'd sure respect someone who apologized for his rude comments. Otherwise don't tell me it's a "two way street". He obviously doesnt respect a lot of us here at this site.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    The question mark in my response "?" I thought would imply that I was looking for further clarification. I guess I needed to use two instead of the one. Instead it implied that I had no idea about cars. I am not really offended...so I wouldn't worry about that not that anyone really is. I just wanted to set the record straight. I think Randy is great....he helps everyone including me. I just feel that he has the wrong idea of my knowledge level here. I was a judge for the GNYR AACA Westburry meet when I was still in highschool. I have a pretty good idea about cars. My focus was possible interchange ideas ala "Hollander". Thats all. If we can find alternatives to the Packard "Achillies Heel"(trannys) Pacs would be on the road. You would think my work towards Treadle Vac conversion ideas inspired by Craig would have given someone the idea that I do more than pour gas and turn the key. I guess not.
    Tim
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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    tfred, if you think my comments are rude, so be it. I have responded to your queries and tried to give meaningful answers. I have responded to anyone on this forum when I thought I had something to contribute. When the question was beyond my expertise, I just stood back and listened.
    I try to educate myself through asking questions, the reading of pertinent material and actual hands-on experience. I gain a lot of insight from reading and then I can at least understand the answers to my questions. To just ignore the manuals and keep asking the same Qs over and over again because the answer is not what I want to hear OR because I can't understand the answer because I refuse to acquire the reference material that has been quoted is unrealistic and gets weary. Admittedly my comment was brusque. I am not Rodney King of "can't we all just get along" fame. There were many instances I could have posted RTFM, but did not, but to have my statements twisted so that it states something I didn't say was, in my opinion, unpardonable. I think it rude to continually badger folks for information that isn't understood when it is given.
    That's all I will say on the subject - I'm going back to normal forum mode.
    YFAM, Randy Berger
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    YFAM, Randy Berger

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    I trust the furor is over. Misunderstandings will occur, no matter what one's intent. I, for one, learned something about transmissions from this. It had never occurred to me that Packard's manual transmission also fit other makes. My 400 has an ultramatic and I assumed that it would be impossible (or very expensive) to convert to manual or manual with overdrive. Ford/Borg Warner transmissions may not be a dime a dozen, but there must be thousands available. When (if) my ultramatic dies, I will be tempted to install a manual with overdrive. If I acquire a second 55 or a 56, (we can all dream) I'm probably going to convince myself that it would be fun to have one of each. I would expect the performance to be considerably enhanced with a manual. If overdrive equipped, it might make the SUV mileage certain people gripe about look even worse.
    Bernardi

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    A year ago I acquired a Deluxe parts car equipped with the T-85 OD and it has been a real pleasure to have it in my 56 Clipper Super 2dr now, instead of the Ultramatic (which no longer worked). I would advise that if one considers this swap to go ahead and find an entire parts car with the 3 speed first as it will eliminate a great deal of searching to accumulate all of the right parts (and there are plenty of them).
    In addition to the transmission, even though it has been determined to be common with some Fords as well, (mine even had a FoMoCo rear seal dust cover on it) you will need several parts that are uncommon even to the majority of 55-56 Packards. Included are the bell housing, flywheel and bolts, pilot and throw out bearings and arm, floor plate, shift linkage, clutch pedal linkage (might be the same as other 51 and up Packards), column, speedometer cable, driveshaft, back up light switch, differential yoke, and so forth that would make the installation look original and work correctly. Then you will also either need a brake warning lense from a pushbutton '56 or the original 3 speed "decoration panel" to go in place of the Ultramatic indicator if you had a lever type. The clutch disk in a 56, as I recall, is a coarse 10 spline 11 inch disc which can be purchased at any tractor parts place for your '60's through 80's Ford 200, 300, or 400 tractor. For my fellow obsessive/compulsive lovers of minutia, one must also acquire new heater hose and temperature sending unit plates for the backs of the cylinder heads that do not include a bracket for the Ultramatic linkage (no it wouldn't look the same if it were sawed off, I already checked).

    There are a few parts that are common between Ultramatic cars and 3 speed cars such as the rear transmission mount. The Ultramatic lever type steering column is identical except for the shift tube inside and the pair of shift levers on the end. Fortunately, the chrome levers are identical except that the positioning device on the Ultramatic lever must be ground off. Also keep in mind that the clutch pedal does not match a treadle-vac brake pedal so either a modification or a retrofit of a manual brake master cylinder might be needed for things to look right.

    Oh, and let's not forget that you'll need to find a plastic knob for your shift lever that matches the interior on your Clipper (good luck) or use a senior knob.

    This set up is hard to beat for performance, though. Having the 3.54 final drive ratio and a "first" gear really make a difference.
    Dave Knight

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Dave, outstanding post from someone who actually converted from TU
    to std. Could you post a picture of what replaced the shift
    indicator plate? I hadn't even considered that component. You
    were fortunate to be converting from Clipper to Clipper or you
    would have had to have the drive shaft cut and fit. Did the rear
    pinion yoke work OK or did you have to swap that also? I assume
    the stick clipper had manual brakes and the TU-equipped car had PB.
    Did you just swap the whole pedal mechanism?
    You're to be commended for doing the swap - a huge effort to do
    it right. Please continue to fill in the details.
    YFAM, Randy Berger
    In Theory there is no difference between practice and theory.
    In Practice, there is.
    YFAM, Randy Berger

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Ok, relative to the stick shift tranny, I have a parts car stored some distance from here and did not look underneath before hauling it to its resting area, but how does the bell housing cover area compare to that of the ultramatic car. I was thinking about going to retrieve the oil pump off the car, but want to take the correct tools. We had trouble getting the bell housing covers off the two ultramatic-equipped cars. Any configuration difference relative to accessing the oil pan to remove it?

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    RO you may have to tap the lower half of the bell housing after you have removed 4 bolts that connect the upper & lower halves , remove the starter, and the bolts that connect the lower bell housing to the front of the transmission. There is two dowels between the two halves that can rust making things harder, spraying them before hand can help..

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Like Albert said, you might have to "tap" a little to get that cover off but I usually drive a small wedge on the corners and carefully pry it off. By the way, don't forget about the two other bolts in the front of the cover behind the oil pan (for a total of 6), I forgot about those at January's Alabama Packard club meeting and needed to be reminded myself by someone with a lot more experience than me! The Ultramatic and 3 speed covers are also the same but there is a date stamp on that part if that is a concern.
    To answer Randy Berger on my conversion, yes, I'll try to post a picture of the shift indicator replacement. I used the brake warning light on mine since I had the parts from my Patrician parts car and wanted to have the additional option.
    I did install the whole pedal mechanism and eliminated the Treadle-Vac in favor of the manual brakes. The whole pedal mechanism had to be used for the clutch linkage so if the manual brakes were not used a spacer on that shaft would probably have been needed. You are right about being fortunate to convert from Clipper to Clipper on the driveshaft question. I was also VERY fortunate to have a 3 speed OD parts car with Torsion Level as the brake master cylinder is located under the driver side floor pan (access cover) to clear the torsion bar rather than under the hood on the frame on a conventional suspension car. I'm not positive but I would guess that there is either a difference in the brake pedal itsef or perhaps just in the length of the rod that operates the master cylinder.
    The rear pinion yoke is different from standard to Ultramatic. I wanted to use the 3.54 rear axle from my parts car so I left the yoke on it and swapped the whole things. Otherwise, you would have to change yokes to fit your standard driveshaft. The Standard driveshaft uses two U-bolts rather than the "halves" that are used on the Ultramatic driveshaft.
    Randy Owen, the only thing I could think of that might be a problem if your parts car turns out to be a 3 speed and you want to remove the oil pan/pump is that it might have singe exhaust so bring your fire-wrench too!
    Dave Knight

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    I was wondering about using the standard tranni rear end on the ultramatic tranni as the rear universial is a lot easier to find, (same as a some of the camero's) as i have another complete 54 chassie for parts, and would also be kinda neat if a ford 5 speed would bolt up to it even if you had a gear shif through the floor.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    OK, you guys answered my question. I have the the experience of the bell housing cover removal on the ultramatic-equipped firmly remembered, but was curiuous if it were different on the stick. Removal of the housing cover was "difficult" on a parts car we tried first, but twice on the '56 Custom required coming in from above and tapping with a 4-foot long pinch bar on the driver's side where there was just enough access to be able to do that. it was really tight even after we removed it and reinstalled it. Yep, we bent a dowel pin one time.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    A question for all: Was this Ford T85 OD tranny have also been used in the 51 to 54 Packard Clippers?

  24. #24

    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    To remove the lower bell housing half use a slide hammer and screw it into one of the threaded holes at the out most points on the sides. You will have to alternate the slide hammer from side to side or use 2wo slide hammers.
    M5. Var. of D12. Amen EMinEM.

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    Re: 352 engine and T85 OD tranny

    Packard53, the stick tranny used up through 1954 was a Packard-designed tranny which is easily definable by the unusual shift arms that come in from the top.
    The case and many internal parts are interchangeable with much earlier versions.
    I never did understand why they went to the T85??
    YFAM, Randy Berger
    In Theory there is no difference between practice and theory.
    In Practice, there is.
    YFAM, Randy Berger

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