Need 1915 Standard Eight cooling piping fabrication

[vwlfan]

Hello,
While not new to the restoration/maintenance of the old car hobby in general I am new to the Horseless Carriage group of early cars.

I recently was able to purchase a 1915 Standard Eight Roadster. The car was restored in the early 60s but has been in storage since the late 60s. Here is a photo of the car after it was delivered to my house last week.




The car is in very solid condition after being in storage but needs to be sorted out so that we can use the car for tours and such.

We first had to deal with several stuck valves. After a day or two of work we were able to free all the valves.

We then had to start a rework of the fuel system. We have successfully cleared the gas tank, cleared the gas line from tank to engine, rebuilt the vacuum canister, and disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the carb. There is now a good supply of fuel.

Since we had the carb out of the way we set the gaps for the valves and cut new valve cover gaskets.

Because we had used a lot of penetrating oil and solvent to free the valves we next replaced the oil and added some oil to the top of each piston to add some initial lubrication and compression.

After a few rounds of cleaning the excess oil from the plugs the car started. After a few more adjustments the car will now start with out priming and run indefinitely on its own. A small success in a long journey.

Now to my need for help or suggestions. After we brought the car up to temperature we find that most of the engine cooling piping has/is developing ping holes from the inside out. Thus after a while we had a mini-steamer going.

Would anyone have any leads on someone or company who might tackle fabrication new piping based on the originals as patterns?

Here is a picture of the engine piping:

Thanks - Bob

[vwlfan]

We spent the morning removing all of the cooling items from the car. Here is a photo of the cooling tubes which will need replaced. The tubes are full of pin holes as the metal is now very thin in spots. You can click the image below for photos with great detail. Thanks for any help.

[Seldenguy]

There was an earlier post on the AACA forum about a craftsman in Europe whom was reproducing these pipes. The photos of his work was extraordinary. There were people from here in the states having him do work for them. A search should help you. --Bob

[vwlfan]

Thanks Bob

I did some searching but must have not hit the appropriate search terms. I will use you input and do some more searching.

[edinmass]

Very cool car. When I clicked the photo I was linked to the site with 25 others. Try it! Interesting water pump and generator drive system. I have never seen anything like it. What is the CID and HP rating? As to a repair, you are correct in making all new tubes. I would recommend making your own temporary set up to drive for the summer, as I bet by the time you find a craftsman who can make them and get them too you it will be late fall. Looks like an interesting chassis set up also. Any other information on this manufacturer? Thanks, Ed.

[23hack]

1931 buick series 60 water distribution tube Here is a link to the discussion on water tube fabrication. These folks seem well pleased. What a Car you have there ! Best wishes.

[vwlfan]

Ed

The best I can tell at this point from some early literature from a friend is the bore is 3" and stroke is 5" which would make it about 283 cid. I am not sure of the HP but I would estimate maybe around 70 from some other information I could find.

These cars were built by the Standard Steel Car Company, the early premier builder of railroad cars. This company eventually known as the Pullman Standard Co. These cars had been built in the company's plant in Butler, PA (also the home to the Butler Old Stone House Region of AACA).

I believe the engine in this car is a Herschell Spillman V8.

23hack: Thanks for the link!

Bob

[Seldenguy]

Bob-- A click on the '31 buick above will show a link to the man in the Czech Republic that does the water tube work I mentioned in an earlier post. It is post #4 and he goes by PEPCAK. I am sure a PM to him will get you started. And I might add that is a great roadster, and a very unusual make and model. Wish it was in my garage. Good luck in preparing to put it on the road. I just found his e-mail address, pepcak@ volny.cz. with the contact name of Josef --Bob

[edinmass]

Just found this, but the HP seems low to me. I would think 70 would be a good guess. Ed

"The first Daniels automobiles were a Model "A" and about 300 cars were produced. The Daniels Model "A" used a 34 horsepower eight cylinder V-8 engine made by Herchell-Spillman Co. of North Tonawanda, NY. A two passenger Roadster or Speedster (shown above), Four passenger Touring Car, Seven passenger Limousine and a Landaulet were produced in 1916. All were produced with a 127 inch wheel base."

[23hack]

This engine is Too interesting ! Very little info on the web, and most is from this forum ! H-S made engines for very many car makers. H-S was primarily a carrousel and amusement park ride manufacturer. I am hoping I have attached a spec sheet of the engine used by Douglas Motor Co. B/S: 3.25 x 5 Rated H.P. 33.8 Brake H.P. 75. Best Wishes

[vwlfan]

spec sheet of the engine used by Douglas Motor Co. B/S: 3.25 x 5 Rated H.P. 33.8 Brake H.P. 75. Best Wishes

That probably makes this car slightly less in HP since the bore is only 3".

Thanks for the info as it is diffucult to find any information on the HS engines. I have contacted the Herschell Carousel Museum in NY as they have some of the remaining archives for the HS Motor Company. While they had quite a bit of information on the HS 4 cyl and 6 cyl engines they had no information or records on the HS 8 cyl engines. Maybe the HS V8 were not manufactured in house but licnesed to other builders. This is an avenue I am trying to research.

[kghia]

I'm just the mechanic on the V8 working with my brother to get this great car back on the road.

I have an old book called the "Handbook of Automobiles 1915-1916". HP in this book is defined by the N.A.C.C as (Diam*Diam*NumPistons/2.5).

An example for an 8 cylinder Cadillac with 3 1/8 X 5 1/8 bore and stroke yields 31.2 comparative HP. What happened to looking at the stroke? This is also called the "taxable HP" which does not really compare to the S.A.E HP we use today.

There is a table in the book that lists a 3 in bore V8 would have 28.8 comparative HP. The SAE would be some where in the 70s likely.

There is a 1916 Peerless listed in the book with a V8. The bore is listed at 3 1/4 X 5 stroke with HP of 33.8. This should be the same motor in the Standard 8 as Peerless seems to have started with the Herschell-Spillman motor too. The 1915 Peerless cars did not list a V8. The book is divided into two parts Jan 1915 and Jan 1916. The 1915 Peerless could have had a 3 X 5 engine. Their sites talks about taking the HS design and modifying it.

The only manufacturer of the 68 listed for 1915 that had a V8 was the Cadillac. Certainly there were many smaller production cars not listed.

In 1916 there were 72 manufactures, 15 different V8s are listed, and explosion:

Cole 3 1/2 X 4 1/2, 346 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s
Scripps Booth 2 5/8 X 3 3/4, 162 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon, cast in block
Cadillac 3 1/8 X 5 1/8, 314 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s
Olds 2 7/8 X 4 3/4, 247 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in block
FB Stearns 3 1/4 X 5, 332 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon, Cleveland, Sleeve
Apperson Bros 3 1/8 X 5, 307 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon
Oakland 3 1/2 X 4 1/2, 346 cu-in, 90 deg water pump, cast in 4s
Jackson 2 7/8 X 4 3/4, 247 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s
Jackson 3 1/2 X 4 1/2, 346 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s
King 3 X 5, 283 cu-in, 283 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon, cast in 4s
King 2 7/8 X 5, 260 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon, cast in 4s
Briscoe 3 X 3 1/2, 198 cu-in, 90, thermo-syphon, cast in block
Consolidated 3 1/4 X 5, 332 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s
Lewis 3 X 4 1/4, 240 cu-in, 90 deg, thermo-syphon, cast in block
Peerless 3 1/4 X 5, 332 cu-in, 90 deg, water pump, cast in 4s, Cleveland

The National, Pathfinder, Packard had 12 cylinder motors

This engine in this Standard 8 is 283 cu-in. The Standard 8 likely upgraded to the 332 cu-in in 1916 or shortly there after.

[The Green Dragon]

Your engine appears to be a Hirshell-Spillman V-8. My 1916 Peerless has a similar engine. The water manifold has split brass nuts that go over the flange. I made replacement manifolds for mine several years ago. I was not able to make the taper but used a straight pipe with a capped end. I had them plated and they have worked very well. The series one Peerless V-8 is the same as the H.S. engine. Peerless made several changes to the engine for the 1917 model.
In all my travels for 50 years I have never seen a set of water manifolds for this engine. Be careful of the aluminum water pump. The impeller had a tendency to grind through the end of the pump.
The H.S. museum doesn't have much information on their engines. You should contact other owners that have the Hirshell-Spillman V-8 engine.
RHL

[vwlfan]

RHL: Thanks for the engine info and the note about the water pump. The local AACA club to which I belong has two Standards with HS V8s. One of the water pumps is bad and needs replaced. We could not find a replacement pump or a pump with a close enough configuration to use. We recently had a new pump cast using our old pump as a pattern. We have to assemble the new cast pump so that we can try it for fit and such. - Bob

[kghia]

What a great article. When the car arrived, it had a poster in it that said the engine was made in Pittsburgh at the "Model Engine Company".

While searching I found this New York Herald, Monday, January 3, 1916 article. It looks to be a confirmation that the Standard Steel Car Company had engines made by this company but also bought the company.

While I have not found a document that states the Model Engine Company made Herschell-Spillman engines it is likely. The poster board stated that the engine in this car was "made in this building" which was used by the "Model Engine Company. Cool stuff. More digging.............

[kghia]

More good Pittsburgh Model Engine stuff, Model Motor

[kghia]

The Standard Eight has a Zenith two barrel carburetor. In my 1915 Dykes Encyclopedia there was a "setup/tuning" chart for this carb.

It seems that other cars like the Stutz used this carb.

The picture looks like a slightly earlier version of the carb but it is very similar.

Click on the link for a higher resolution image.

http://karmannghias.org/Standard/Zeinith.jpg

[The Green Dragon]

Hirschell-Spillman made two V-8 engines, the model V 3 in. bore and 5 in. stroke 28.8 HP and the V-a with 31/4 in. bore and 5 in. stroke rated at 33.8 HP.
They sold their engines to many different automobile manufacturers. Peerless came out in November 1915 with their V-8 model and it was supposed to be built by Peerless. I have a series one Peerless with this engine and it is exactly the same as the Hirschell-Spillman V-a engine. The only difference is the water pump intake. I have not been able to find any information as to whether Peerless bought the engines from H.S. or the rights to manufacture them. Peerless made several significant changes and improvements to the engine in late 1916. Improvements that H.S. didn't make.
Could it be that Standard bought the rights to manufacture the H,S. engine?
RHL

[vwlfan]

Could it be that Standard bought the rights to manufacture the H,S. engine?
RHL

I just added a post about the this possibility to my other post: http://forums.aaca.org/f169/new-owne...er-324525.html

The HS V8s appear to have been produced at least through 1922. There are 3 Standards in my local AACA club all with HS V8s. My 1915 has the V model with the 3" bore while the clubs 1920 and 1922 both have the Va model with the 3 1/4" bore. To look at the three engines they look pretty much identical except for small changes/improvements that appear to have been made through the years.

How are the water distribution tubes attached on your Peerless engine? Are they attached via a nut circleing the down tube which inserts into the head or is the down tube attached via a large flange at the end of the down tube which is bolted to the head on the flange ears?

[The Green Dragon]

My 1916 Peerless series one water manifold has a flange on the end that goes into the CI block. The block has female threads in it. There are brass split nuts that go over the water manifold and screw into the block with a packing.
My 1917 Peerless series two water manifold has an oval flange on the end with two holes and fastens to the block with two 1/4 inch studs and a flat rubber washer.
Peerless also changed the valve mechanism, with the valve stems lined up over the cam shaft with no rockers, they also change the timing order and balanced the engine. They put oil fillers and breathers in each block and ran the water piping to the left block through the aluminum crank block. There were a few changes made to the water pump as well. They also had a problem with the pump pumping more water than the radiator could handle and it pushed water out the overflow. They put washers in the water lines to restrict it and balance the cooling.
I don't know what changes H.S. made to their engine but it would be interesting to compare their changes with Peerless. I have made a hard cover copy of the Peerless service manual that has the service bulletins and the schematics of series 1 through 5 Peerless V-8 engines. The series one would be the same as your engine. I have these for sale for $60, which is my cost, but I don't know if it would do you any good.
RHL

[vwlfan]

I have made a hard cover copy of the Peerless service manual that has the service bulletins and the schematics of series 1 through 5 Peerless V-8 engines. The series one would be the same as your engine. I have these for sale for $60, which is my cost, but I don't know if it would do you any good.
RHL

I sent you PM about the book.- Bob

[vwlfan]

Hirshell-Spillman V-8. My 1916 Peerless has a similar engine.
RHL

RHL do you know how your 1916 Peerless engine regulated the oil pressure? When we had the HS V8 in the Standard running it appeared the oil pressure (as inidicated by the dash gauge and some leaks) was too high. I looked at the oil pump from one of the club's other HS V8s but I could not find a pressure relief valve on the pump.

Any ideas or thoughts would be very helpful. - Bob

[jeff_a]

In 2007 someone had a pair of these water manifolds (for a Peerless V-8) for sale on ebay. Regrettably, I didn't buy them, but rare things like this do come up for sale occasionally.

[vwlfan]

Thanks Jeff, It certainly would be neat to find a nice set of original pipes.

I am going to have a new set fabricated. I dropped them off this week. I may not be driving the car for a good while if I wait to find a set. - Bob

[The Green Dragon]

Bob,
All my Peerless V-8 engines have a taping in the aluminum crank block on the left front, this is into the oil passage. There is a spring ball check that is adjustable, the oil flows from this by tubing to the top of the cross shaft for the generator and water pump. There is also a taping in the rear of this oil passage and a tube goes from there to the oil gauge. The pressure is only 2 to 3 pounds when the engine is warm. If the pressure regulator is set too tight the pressure will be high but the cross shaft will not have sufficient oil.
Check to make sure you are getting oil to the cross shaft.
RHL