CCCA Ice Cream Social

[Barry Wolk]

if CCCA was a marque specific group you had interest in, but no car yet, would you consider joining?

NO

(BTW, did the thought ever cross your mind that a Lincoln Continental would fit your "Continental" collection, and give you something to bring to the CCCA folks' sandbox?? )

That could happen.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

On my short list of possible future acquisitions as well. I would only add that while there are a lot of very expensive cars in CCCA, many eligible cars are in the $20 - 50K range. Not that exclusive compared to what many much more mundane cars go for...

Sounds like it is not about the people in your case, Barry, it is kind of an either I am fully in or I am not thing - if that is the case I get it.

[Barry Wolk]

Why would I join the SDC if I don't own a Stude? Some of my best friends own Studes, but that's no reason to join their club.

I guess I'm just totally turned off by the CCCA's attitude, not their members. Many agree that the Mark II should be included as the only thing it doesn't qualify on is that it wasn't made pre-1948, a seemingly arbitrary date.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

ahh - a philisophical difference. Unfortunately the Milestone Car Society, kind of a postwar answer to CCCA never really made it off the ground, kind of sputtered along for a few years there not sure when it died but I think it may have been at least 10 years ago. Somewhat different criteria though, as I think a '55 - '57 Chevy Nomad would be a milestone as well as your Continental; i can imagine a much less cohesive group than if they took a "best of the best" mentaility as CCCA does. I would agree there are a few cars - yours especially that fit the spirit of CCCA in every aspect except year of manufacture.

But in answer to the Stude question - if you were seriously interested in owning one then you may find it makes sense to join? If you appreciated them but just happened to have a couple close friends with Studes I agree, pass.

But I will go just about anywhere that has ice cream....

[Barry Wolk]

Of course I would join the SDC if I were in the market, but I'm not.

Frankly, I have little use for the Lincoln or the 356 national organizations, but I have to join them to belong to local regions. I greatly dislike points-judged shows, so I never subject myself to that kind of venue. I like people telling me what they like about my toys, not what's wrong with them, so I fit nicely in the Concours scene.

Again, to each his own.

[K8096]

I don't think 1948 is an arbitrary date at all. The CCCA is basically a pre WW II car club. The only post war cars let in are ones that are nearly identical to the 1942 models. There isn't one car in the CCCA that originally came with a modern type OHV V8 engine with power steering and modern type power brakes.

[Barry Wolk]

IMO, 1942 is an arbitrary date.

[K8096]

In reality, the Classic Era ended in the late 30's with the Packard Twelve, Lincoln, K, V 16 Cadillac, and V 12 Pierce Arrow. Those are the last of the American "over built, larger than life, super cars." Another way to look at it is the custom body business. I believe the only American body builder to make it through the war and still do car bodies in the late 40's early 50's was Derham. And after the war, most (but not all) of Derham's work was adding padded tops to cars. The custom body business (building a one of a kind body from scratch) is a hallmark of what some people call the Classic Era of the 1920's & 30's.

[West Peterson]

I guess arbitrary is relative, but I agree that there is a definite difference between prewar and postwar cars. The CCCA's initial intent, as K8096 pointed out, was to highlight the cars of the Classic Era, which pretty much ended by 1939. I think they probably did "arbitrarily" choose 1942, just because it was an easy breaking point of prewar vs postwar.

[Barry Wolk]

If I remember correctly the original cut-off was pre-1942. Kinda hard to hit a moving target.

[West Peterson]

After the dust cleared, the cut-off was 1942, with the exception of Lincoln Continentals, which were included through 1948. That, in my opinion, was the camel's nose.
The founding father's were more interested in having a club JUST FOR the cars that all but the most wealthy one percent of us could afford. Cars that would be in the $300,000 category today. So bringing it into today's world, I guess the analogy would be somone with a Cadillac wanting to break into a club meant for Bentleys and Maybachs.

[Barry Wolk]

I may be wrong, but I don't think that the wealthiest 1% are the ones buying $300,000 cars today. I believe the percentage is much smaller.

[alsancle]

You should join the CCCA if only to get the publications which are fantastic. Btw, I'm a member of about 12 clubs including the Nash, REO, Marmon, Hupp clubs, plus a few other for which I own no cars.

[West Peterson]

I may be wrong, but I don't think that the wealthiest 1% are the ones buying $300,000 cars today. I believe the percentage is much smaller.

You're more than likely right. Go with my second analogy. Cadillac does not produce a car today that would fall within the guidelines of what the original CCCA founders had in mind. If they decided to produce that "Sixteen" that was developed a few years ago... that would fit.

[Barry Wolk]

No, but a couple of the mid-'50s Caddys and the Mark II would certainly meet their criteria. I'm not suggesting that modern cars be allowed. I don't consider drum brakes and carbs to be modern.

Like I said, their rules are exclusionary, which will eventually kill the club through attrition.

[West Peterson]

If so, just barely. Certainly the 1959-60 Cadillac Pininfarina Brougham would. I don't think the Continental would, though. Again, I'm referring to the original founders thoughts. Certainly the Connie and the high-end Cadillacs fall into today's criteria, with the exception of the cut-off date.

Edit: I meant to say, "possibly" the 1959-60 Pininfarina Broughams. While they were certainly extremely limited production, even with a price of $13-14,000 that's not the rare-air limits that the Classic Era cars were hitting. Classic cars (with a huge capital "C"), cost 10 times or more as much as a standard workman's automobile. The high-end cars of the 1950s were only about 4 times as much.

1930 Packard speedster ~ $6,000 vs Ford at ~ $500
1957 Continental ~ $10,000 vs 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air at ~ $2,500

[alsancle]

Like I said, their rules are exclusionary, which will eventually kill the club through attrition.

You can buy this car today for 7500. Spend a few bucks to get it running and you can drive right on to a Grand Classic show field. Explain to me how that is exclusionary? Not to pick on you Barry because your attitude is common, but there is a kind of reverse snobbery thing that goes on against the CCCA.

[alsancle]

This argument/discussion repeats itself every 6 months. The biggest mistake the club ever made was going past 1942. It opened up a can of worms.

[Barry Wolk]

Reverse snobbery? That's funny.

[Barry Wolk]

If so, just barely. Certainly the 1959-60 Cadillac Pininfarina Brougham would. I don't think the Continental would, though. Again, I'm referring to the original founders thoughts. Certainly the Connie and the high-end Cadillacs fall into today's criteria, with the exception of the cut-off date.

Edit: I meant to say, "possibly" the 1959-60 Pininfarina Broughams. While they were certainly extremely limited production, even with a price of $13-14,000 that's not the rare-air limits that the Classic Era cars were hitting. Classic cars (with a huge capital "C"), cost 10 times or more as much as a standard workman's automobile. The high-end cars of the 1950s were only about 4 times as much.

1930 Packard speedster ~ $6,000 vs Ford at ~ $500
1957 Continental ~ $10,000 vs 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air at ~ $2,500

That argument doesn't fly. Auburns were not 10 times the price of a worker's car.

[South_paw]

My, how times have changed.

1956 Motor Life Magazine

[K8096]

This Classic beast is for sale in the Marmon forum for only $12,000. This would be a great family car. Nothing exclusionary here.

[Barry Wolk]

I went to the Grand Classics when it was in Novi. I saw nothing in that condition. The price of admission was a full restoration.

[alsancle]

The logic of what is included and what is not is not full proof. I would bring either the marmon or the auburn to a grand classic. Of course I would put them in for exhibition and not judging. They would get plenty of attention if that is your concern.

[Mark Huston]

I went to the Grand Classics when it was in Novi. I saw nothing in that condition. The price of admission was a full restoration.

Like the AACA, the CCCA promotes original cars and has a display/judging class for those original cars at their Grand Classics. It is the car owner’s choice to either restore their car, or keep it original, just like in the AACA.

In the many years I have been a member of the CCCA they have included pictures of original unrestored cars displayed at the Grand Classics many times in the club’s Classic Car magazine. Yes, the CCCA does embrace original cars, it is the owners who choose to restore them.

My car, a 1929 Studebaker President Brougham, is not restored, it is a work in progress, and may never be completed, however, it is just as welcomed at CCCA events as any car that is restored.