[windjamer]

OK, Im confussed.With only 13 judging credits I have a right to be.No its not realy a new subject/topic.At the CJE class on tires I rec. a chart on first use of Radials,Redlines and alpha tires. I know my 72 Chevelle came with Bias ply, yet the chart tells me GM first used Radials in 1967. At the AGN in Dover there where two 72 Olds with Radial tires in my class. One was atempting a first GN the outher was looking to rec. a senior. The first wanting a junior lost after a VARY heated discusion because of the radials. The outher won his senior. How come?? Im not trying to stir a turd, just want to know how to know the correct tires. I am told 1967 for redline tires,yet I have seen FACTORY DOCUMENTATION that clearly shows redlines for the 1965 GTO. I dont want to make unnessary deductions but Im proud of my cars status, Im not giving anything away. Gettysburg is comeing up,whats the MAGIC formular

[R W Burgess]

Dick, if you're not judging and you're just curious about your Chevelle, then bias tires on it, raises no eyebrows. Know what I mean [img]<>/smile.gif[/img]

Otherwise, I'll bet that letter thang to the VP will come into play. [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

I keep hearing about earlier year uses of radials too, but the first new car I had with them was a 1974 Nova and they had to be special ordered. I'm not saying they weren't available earlier, but these country dealers down here in Virginnie had never heard of them, except maybe on them "furin curs"! [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img]

Wayne

[Shop Rat]

wj, I copied and pasted your entire post and sent it by e-mail to Eric (Rick) Marsh, the guy that teaches the tire CJE class. The minute I hear back from him I will post it here.

Bill and I are going to Gettysburg so maybe THIS time I can actually meet you [img]<>/laugh.gif[/img] and not that riff-raff [img]<>/wink.gif[/img] you left to watch your space at Hershey. [img]<>/grin.gif[/img] (Just kidding they were very nice.)

[R W Burgess]

Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! [img]<>/cool.gif[/img]

Wayne

[MCHinson]

While Mr. Marsh is the resident tire expert, I would add that the "Magic Formula" is this.

If you are sure it is wrong, then have the team captain ask for documentation. If the owner has factory documentation that the tires are correct, then they receive no deduction. If the owner has some other (other than manufacturer's) documentation, the judging team can decide if the documentation should be believed and no deduction taken or if the documentation is not to be believed.

If the owner has NO documentation AND the team is 100% sure that the tires are incorrect, then it deserves an appropriate deduction as indicated in the judging standards.

If you are not sure, then the owner gets the benefit of the doubt and no deduction should be taken.

Like the documentation that you mentioned, I have heard of several rare examples of situtations where documentation exists showing that some cars were delivered with radials before they were generally believed to be available per Mr. Marsh's CJE guidelines.

With proper documentation, the answer is clear.

[msmazcol]

Just for reference my untouched survivor 69 442 has a redline, bias, spare in the trunk which has never touched the ground. I run redline radials on the ground but do not expect the car to be a trophy winner. Perhaps the car that did so well with the radials in place was just that nice. The tire was the only deduction that day in that team of judges eyes?

[windjamer]

Matt I do follow your advise on asking for documentation,THATS the reason for 99% of the harasement I get from MOSTLY frends and family. Like old Rodney Dangerguy,I just don got no ressspect. Susan seriously, Rick is the author of my chart and the instructor of the class I went to. He is a heck of a good guy and a real instructor. I wouldnt have his job if it was paid.

[MCHinson]

OK, just to muddy the waters, here is my personal pet peeve on tires...

From the rules:

17. Batteries, headlights, belts, tires, hoses
and clamps may be of modern manufacture,
but must be visually of the era of the
vehicle and of the type specified by the
vehicle manufacturer. Specific brand is
not important.

OK, Model A Fords came from the Ford factory with Firestone, Goodyear, B.F. Goodrich, or U.S. Rubber tires on them. Reproductions of the original tires are available. (I will stay out of the grandfathered acceptance of whitewall tires on Model A's, that is a whole other discussion.)

I personally have heartburn with the "specific brand is not important" when I see aftermarket "Sears Allstate" tires on a Model A Ford. They could not have come from the factory looking like that. While this specific brand in this case is "of the era of the vehicle" it was an aftermarket product, not something that came from the factory.

[Shop Rat]

Originally Posted By: R W Burgess

Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! [img]<>/cool.gif[/img]

Wayne

Don't worry I will be. I have known him for quite a few years and judged with him on several occasions.

Several years ago he stepped in, at my request because the guy doing the chassis CJE was giving wrong info. on tires, and gave the correct info. to the class. Several of which were at their very first CJE course. It would not have been a good thing for them to leave the class and go deduct for tires that were correct.

The instructor had told the class that tires always match all the way around including the spare. That just is not always true. Older cars could have tires that match in the front that don't match the ones in the rear. The fronts match each other, the rears match each other. And the spare might be some leftover tire that doesn't match anything. Rick was kind enough to step up and give the class the correct information.

[windjamer]

Matt I dont judge model As thank you, I did one year and felt like the biggest fool in Hershey. I went by my b/inlaws rule, if it looks right it probably is. Any questions I had I ask the team capt.Sears tires on Anything would most likely cause me to call on my capt. I dont think Ford GM or any manufacture EXCEPT the wooden go-buggy Sears sold used them. Just for the record,I have since started to look and learn about the Model a and outhers of that era just in case. I dont like not knowing