[Shop Rat]

wj, It helps if you have a small notebook to carry when you go to judging school and CJE classes to make notes in. I have a small 3-ring binder with A through Z dividers so that I can alphbetize the notes. I write down what was taught, on what date, where and by whom. It has come in handy more than once on the showfield.

You can also cut items out of The Judge and tape them in there also for future reference.

[Rick Marsh]

Good morning, I see the subject of tires is being kicked around again and my name has been inserted.
I've been teaching the CJE on tires for several years and updating the material as new information comes along.
I believe over 1/2 of the AACA National Judges have been through the talk and several have come through more than once. I also provide a handout (referenced above)and if the individual has not been through the tire CJE, thay maynot fully understand what the document says.
The tire CJE takes about 30 to 40 minutes based on number of questions raised and number of judges arriving after start of the talk. (this is called the interruption and restart phase)

I don't type well so I'll just point out some highlights and encourage attendance at the next AACA National Meet.

1. The owner is responsible for the authenticity of the vehicle, not the judge.
2. If the car came from the dealer with factory authorized tires, those tires should match the documentation.
3. The first place for this documentation is normally the owners manual found originally in the glove box.
4. This manual usually has a page identifying what the original tires were.ie. a 6.70 x 15 bias ply ( I haven't seen an owners manual which says brand)
5. We don't have aftermarket tube type bias available anymore, they all say tubeless. A dummel tool is not required to remove the words tubeless when mounting on your 1949 Chevrolet which calls for tubes. Just put a tube in the tire. ( I explain why in the tire CJE).
6. The handout has a chart on page three titled "general availability". Many judges have gotten a copy without going through the CJE, ignored the title of the chart and proceeded to disagree with the years stated. General availability means the year that a manufacturing line made the general conversion. Redlines, for example, were generally available in 1967 while they were actually introduced in the 1965 model year on the Olds 442. Pontiac got wind of this and a few late 1964 GTOs had redlines. If the owner has the documentation to match the tires then move on. (Mustang had dual redlines and were often on non-high performance Mustangs - I defer from here to Mr. Randall Stone)
7. Radials cause all kinds of discussion. It comes up in every CJE and often at AACA National Judging schools ie. the recent school in Charlotte. All radials are not the same. We have radials and P-metric radials. If your documentation says radials and you're running P metrics, they are the wrong tire. Both types are available on the aftermarket. You may just have to look at more than one source to find them.

These are just highlights. I urge judges to attend the schools and debate based on facts rather than emotion.

I judge in other clubs as well and AACA has the best system. This is a great hobby and our AACA judges do a pretty good job.

Remember rule#1 - We're here to have fun!

Thanks,

Rick Marsh

[Shop Rat]

Thanks Rick I knew I could count on you. I have your handout on my judging clipboard from the time I took your CJE class. Sounds like I need to take it again to get the updated version.

[nearchoclatetown]

Originally Posted By: Shop Rat

Originally Posted By: R W Burgess

Be prepared for him, Susan!

He's a wiry old cuss! [img]<>/cool.gif[/img]

Wayne

The instructor had told the class that tires always match all the way around including the spare. That just is not always true. Older cars could have tires that match in the front that don't match the ones in the rear. The fronts match each other, the rears match each other. And the spare might be some leftover tire that doesn't match anything. Rick was kind enough to step up and give the class the correct information.

I would like to see this documentation that front and rear tires do not match on a new car or the spare not match any other.

[Shop Rat]

The instructor was speaking of all cars. He was telling the class the wrong information which left uncorrected would have resulted in incorrect deductions being taken.

Here is the rule from the 2009 Judges Guidelines under the heading of Chassis, page 22, item 9.

9. Prior to 1915, tires must be matched in
pairs (front and rear), but spares need not
match anything on the vehicle
except each
other. (If there’s more than one size spare,
they will naturally
differ.)

[nearchoclatetown]

OK, pre '15 sounds a little differant then older cars. At least some pre '15s had differant tread patterns front to rear. But what good would a spare tire be if it didn't match any tire on the car? I guess they are going to have to rewrite that rule as Corvettes starting about '84 could have differant tires front to rear also.

[Shop Rat]

Originally Posted By: nearchoclatetown

But what good would a spare tire be if it didn't match any tire on the car?

My guess is that as long as it held up long enough to get it back home or to a garage that was good enough. Kind of like the donut/"may pop" spares of today. They don't match anything but they will get you home or to a garage/tire shop/local Walmart....hopefully. [img]<>/grin.gif[/img]

Quote:

I guess they are going to have to rewrite that rule as Corvettes starting about '84 could have differant tires front to rear also.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Someone needs to submit some factory documentation to Joe Vicini and get that started for next year.

[novaman]

Common sense guys....

The "manual" is guidelines. Factory documentation overrules the guidelines. As for the Corvette have different size tire F/R make sure the team captain knows you have factory documentation for them being different.

If you read the 2001 Judges Guidelines, under engine, item 1, it reads "all radiator hose clamps must match each other. All heater hose clamps must match each other." 99% of the time they do. But a '63 Chevy II would be incorrect if all the heater hose clamps match. One clamp is different. I have Factory documentation for this. This item was changed in 2002 Judging Manual as apparently some others ran into this problem and it now reads "All radiator and hose clamps must be as provided by the manufacturer."

There are times where there are exceptions to the "rule". If you have a car that has one of the "exceptions", it would be advisable to have the documentation for the item and let the team captain know that you have one of the "exceptions to the rule" and that you have documentation for it. As Eric said, It’s” the owner’ is responsible for the authenticity of the vehicle, not the judge”. If the owner autheniticly restored the car, with quality workmanship, he shouldn’t have anything to worry about when the car is judged.

There are times where there are exceptions to the "rule". If you have a car that has one of the "exceptions", it would be advisable to have the documentation for the item and let the team captain know that you have one of the "exceptions to the rule" and that you have documentation for it.

[ex98thdrill]

Dick,

From the standpoint of having a vehicle point judged, everytime a judging team came to judge one of our vehicles and there were things that I knew that could be a descrepancy, I told the team captain as soon as the team got there what they were and told them that I had the documentation to prove it.

Case in point.

American LaFrance fire trucks....

American LaFrance painted the frames the same as the body color. In the case of our truck, our truck is on a Ford chassis, and Ford chassis left Dearborn with the frames painted black. There have been instances where a judging team has questioned as to why the frame isn't black, and I've had to explain it, but in the case of American LaFrance, the truck is correct. With the cost of red paint versus black paint, it would've been cheaper to paint the frame black, but it cost us more money to paint the frame the correct color.

If you have something on your vehicle that is questionable, tell the team captain what it is, and have your documentation ready if they ask for it. If you don't tell them up front and take the deduction, you're going to be on the losing end. Save yourself the headache and tell them up front.

I was involved in an issue of Hershey this last fall where the engine judge on my team swore up and down that the engine was painted the wrong color. In this case I happened to know who did the restoration on the vehicle, I had seen the vehicle during its' restoration, the restorer was able to explain things a little more, but did not have the documentation. After a WARM discussion with the engine judge, it was decided to call someone who knew about those engines. Needless to say this person we called, turned around and called the plant manager where this engine was assembled, looked it up, and verified that it was correct. Although the engine was painted entirely different than what anyone else had ever seen, it was correct.

Had I not made a fuss with my fellow team members, there is a vehicle owner who showed up at Hershey who wouldn't have gotten an award that they had rightfully deserved. Due to my persistence (and being stubborn too) the judging system worked in the way that it was designed to, and everyone left happy. I will say that it was a good learning experience for everyone on the judging team.

The moral of the story, if you have something questionable, tell the team captain before judging starts. If you don't tell them, you could lose.

[windjamer]

Pat you are 100% right, just DONT P.O. the capt first. You might have to wate till next year for your Honestly Fair DESERVED Award